Stannis the character was ruined for me

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

My point is you can't have it both ways. Either you're saying Season 5 was slow because they were forced to stick to the pace of the books, or the changes were justified to remedy the flaws of the last two books. Pick one argument, you can't argue both of those simultaneously, they're mutually exclusive. 

Not that either argument has much merit. Clearly whatever they wanted to do to spice up the source material didn't work because even you admit that Season 5 was slow. But it's also true that Season 5 didn't need to be slow. Season 5 was two books squished into 10 episodes. Even two slow books in one season should have made a very action packed season. It's actually something of a feat that they managed to make it so boring. They cut out big plots and characters in Arianne and Aegon. Revealing a new king in the first few episodes of the season would have been the kind of punch needed. And don't say that there's no time for them. HBO would happily run GoT for 10 seasons at this point. 

So your solution to the tedium of the early season / books was a plot about the kidnapping of a girl who has barely been on the show, by a brand new unknown character, in a location not seen on the show. Plus the introduction of a subplot about a kid who may or may not be eligible for the throne, but really his entire plot is slowly plodding towards Dany, and then slowly plodding back. 

Genius.

The point is, they still have to largely stick to the main plot points of the book, especially when it comes to the main characters. Very little of note happens in a huge swathe of the books, so unless you were expecting to just make up a load of stuff instead then your argument is still pretty eye rolling. 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

Aren't any travelogues in ASOIAF!! 

Funniest comment ever.

[protar]

So your solution to the tedium of the early season / books was a plot about the kidnapping of a girl who has barely been on the show, by a brand new unknown character, in a location not seen on the show. Plus the introduction of a subplot about a kid who may or may not be eligible for the throne, but really his entire plot is slowly plodding towards Dany, and then slowly plodding back. 

Genius.

The point is, they still have to largely stick to the main plot points of the book, especially when it comes to the main characters. Very little of note happens in a huge swathe of the books, so unless you were expecting to just make up a load of stuff instead then your argument is still pretty eye rolling. 

As I recall Tyrion is at the centre of the Aegon plot - it's hardly unrelated to the old characters. So yes, my solution would be to follow the source material and include the new characters introduced in Feast and Dance. We've got lost heirs, femme fatales out for vengeance, pirate-wizard-kings. That's exciting stuff. Martin didn't get everything right but the concepts (and much of the actual plot) is gold. And again, at minimum the show is running for 8 seasons and honestly I think that if D+D weren't so keen to end it ASAP HBO would let it go for 10 easily. So S5 would only have been halfway through the series. What's wrong with introducing new characters halfway through a story? Providing they're written well, audiences would be invested in them. Stop being so self-centred. Just because you didn't like Aegon and Arianne and the like doesn't mean that their characters have no merit. You're the one talking about mass appeal all the time. Look past your own preferences.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

As I recall Tyrion is at the centre of the Aegon plot - it's hardly unrelated to the old characters. So yes, my solution would be to follow the source material and include the new characters introduced in Feast and Dance. We've got lost heirs, femme fatales out for vengeance, pirate-wizard-kings. That's exciting stuff. Martin didn't get everything right but the concepts (and much of the actual plot) is gold. And again, at minimum the show is running for 8 seasons and honestly I think that if D+D weren't so keen to end it ASAP HBO would let it go for 10 easily. So S5 would only have been halfway through the series. What's wrong with introducing new characters halfway through a story? Providing they're written well, audiences would be invested in them. Stop being so self-centred. Just because you didn't like Aegon and Arianne and the like doesn't mean that their characters have no merit. You're the one talking about mass appeal all the time. Look past your own preferences.

 If you were to write down that as a blurb for the Aegon plot line I might think 'oh wow, yeah I'd like to read that'. Except the reality is its not written like that at all. The plot mainly involves Tyrion hanging around getting drunk, playing board games, looking out at the river and having a lot of repetitive inner monologues about his father and whores. In terms of event and plot theres very little to work with there and certainly wouldn't make good tv. The changes to his plot this season were some of the most welcome for me, they cut out much of the fluff and pushed him further along than he managed to get in the books.

Whether I liked them or not, its hard to deny that plot is pretty slow and uneventful. 

Your solution to make the show more interesting was to introduce new characters and locations, completely unrelated to anything the audience has seen before. I wouldn't mind that story being in there, it would be better than the current Dorne plot, but in no way is it something that would increase interest in the plot. 

[TepidHands]

I agree that the show runners' reading of Tywin's character is off. I've heard people use Stannis as a good example of a lawful neutral character. (I discuss character alignments way too much with my friends) Stannis upholds the law while Tywin uses it to further HIS idea of law. 

Of course, Tywin didn't technically order Gregor to rape and murder Elia, or so he claims to Tyrion in ASOS. I've always interpreted that scene as Tywin not giving us/his son the whole picture. Tywin would NEVER admit to wanting petty revenge on poor Elia and her family. He'd see that kind of desire as beneath him. 

It's an interesting finger exercise, trying to figure out who's where in terms of alignment. I think Stannis is indeed lawful neutral. Ned Stark or Brienne are lawful good. Tywin I would put as lawful evil. Chaotic good might be Jon Snow (he's certainly shaken up the Night's Watch) or even Arya. Chaotic evil might be Littlefinger. True neutral? HODOR! Of course, I'm basing all this on the book characters because consistency isn't the strong suit of the show. 

Tywin damn well knew what he was sending into Elia's chambers with orders to dispatch them all, and while he's a prideful old fart, he's also quite vengeful (witness how he treated his father's mistress after Tytos died). 

ETA: Hey, Protar, it's nice to see your posts again! 

[protar]

 If you were to write down that as a blurb for the Aegon plot line I might think 'oh wow, yeah I'd like to read that'. Except the reality is its not written like that at all. The plot mainly involves Tyrion hanging around getting drunk, playing board games, looking out at the river and having a lot of repetitive inner monologues about his father and whores. In terms of event and plot theres very little to work with there and certainly wouldn't make good tv. The changes to his plot this season were some of the most welcome for me, they cut out much of the fluff and pushed him further along than he managed to get in the books.

Whether I liked them or not, its hard to deny that plot is pretty slow and uneventful. 

Your solution to make the show more interesting was to introduce new characters and locations, completely unrelated to anything the audience has seen before. I wouldn't mind that story being in there, it would be better than the current Dorne plot, but in no way is it something that would increase interest in the plot. 

I'm not suggesting that though because Aegon, Dorne and the Iron Islands are connected to the main plot. I really don't comprehend how anyone could find Tyrion's plot line in Dance boring. Between meeting Aegon, fighting Zombies, getting kidnapped, hearing prophecies, getting caught up in storms, being sold into slavery, nearly getting eaten by lions and then joining a sellsword company, there's enough there for a whole movie. I've plotted a lot of this out, Tyrion has oodles of material. The problem shouldn't have been that there was not enough to adapt, there is too much exciting stuff to fit into one season. 

[mormont]

[mod] People, let's remain civil, please. I've had to delete several posts in this thread and next time, I won't stop at deletions. Be respectful. [/mod]

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

I'm not suggesting that though because Aegon, Dorne and the Iron Islands are connected to the main plot. I really don't comprehend how anyone could find Tyrion's plot line in Dance boring. Between meeting Aegon, fighting Zombies, getting kidnapped, hearing prophecies, getting caught up in storms, being sold into slavery, nearly getting eaten by lions and then joining a sellsword company, there's enough there for a whole movie. I've plotted a lot of this out, Tyrion has oodles of material. The problem shouldn't have been that there was not enough to adapt, there is too much exciting stuff to fit into one season. 

Well in the show he gets kidnapped, he fights zombies, gets sold into slavery, meets Dany. They took the best bits and cut out a lot of fat, which would have been the beginning of his arc. Yes I did quite like his time in the sellsword company in the books, but it took a lot to get to that point. Thats precisely what they should have been doing. Much of the event of those books happens towards the end, and much of the set up is very plodding. 

[Stannis is the man....nis]

Lol, such a eye-rolling argument, it really is.
You act like the tv show completely ignored everything in the book altogether. They still followed roughly the same plot, they had to. And just like Feast and Dance, almost nothing of note happens for the first half. Not a coincidence at all. They even attempted to inject some sort of action and event in the show to add some pace, such as Selmys death. As crap as that was, it was still an obvious recognition that the story was plodding along too slowly.

The only parts of the plot they followed was Stannis get trapped in a snow storm and Ramsey rapes his wife on his wedding night in front of Reek.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

The only parts of the plot they followed was Stannis get trapped in a snow storm and Ramsey rapes his wife on his wedding night in front of Reek.

Not true. 

[John Doe]

The only parts of the plot they followed was Stannis get trapped in a snow storm and Ramsey rapes his wife on his wedding night in front of Reek.

True.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

Not true. 

At least from the books, it is. Ramsay raped his wife, even though it was a different wife in a different context, and Stannis got stuck in the snow. That's it. All the Melisandre/Shireen stuff doesn't happen on the books. Nor does Jeyne screams at Theon's face several times. So, if we're talking plot points, those were it. 

[Lautrec]

There was a post here that I didn't manage to read fully. It was addressed to me and its gone now for some reason.

Anyways, D&D aren't as good as Martin is, he simply is a better writer. However, they had good idea and concepts when it came to Season 5, it's just that their execution wasn't the best. On the other hand, Martin's very ideas for Feast and Dance were bad, he let the story escape his grasp, at the expense of everything. Did we need a dozen chapters to establish that Cersei is loosing her mind? Or seeing Sam and Tyrion's boat journeys to their full extent? Not to say travelogues are bad, but they have to be done with care. The only really two purposes a travelogue could serve is to establish and develop the characters, and do the same with the world (for example the travelogue in the first half of Sailing to Sarantium). I wouldn't really complain if ADWD ended properly, but we got one of the dumbest editing mistakes I could think of. The book is too big... so instead of cutting out hundreds of pages of waste, we will remove the climax of the book instead. I mean, really?

 

[Lautrec]

At least from the books, it is. Ramsay raped his wife, even though it was a different wife in a different context, and Stannis got stuck in the snow. That's it. All the Melisandre/Shireen stuff doesn't happen on the books. Nor does Jeyne screams at Theon's face several times. So, if we're talking plot points, those were it. 

Honest question here. What were the other necessary plot points to adapt, concerning Stannis? I was just reminded of the way Kubrick would adapt novels. He would take 6-8 of the most important plot points of the entire book and then add his own content and interpretation. Are his movies bad adaptations?

[Stag_legion]

The Ds called Tywin "lawful neutral." This is the guy who ordered that same 7-foot rapist murderer to, well, rape and murder the crown prince's wife and children during Robert's Rebellion. The same guy who destroyed a couple of entire families and is lionized (Heh.) in song for it. The same guy who plotted with people who freaking FLAY PEOPLE ALIVE to kill another family at dinner. The same guy who ordered the gang-rape of his son's wife, then was caught nailing that son's whore girlfriend. The same guy who was willing to see that son executed because he didn't measure up to what Tywin thought a son should be (all the while, willfully oblivious to his golden son's continued and fruitful sexual relationship with his twin sister). Lawful neutral. Yeah, that's just what comes to mind when I think of Tywin. 

 

Yes, this a thousand times. double Ds aren't even consistent with their own show. No wonder the show has become a mess. In hindsight the first 2 or 3 seasons were probably good because of GRRM's involvement. When GRRM backed off the show it took a nose dive in quaility

[Stag_legion]

I'm not entirely sure the showrunners read them, or if they did, if they understood them. They haven't gotten a single character "right" in terms of story, characterization, plot path ... Tywin's "lawful neutral." Arya's only about revenge. Stannis is only about ambition. Sansa doesn't think about Sandor. Jon doesn't think about Arya. There are no direwolves. Only Bran is a warg. Jaime's a rapist. Cersei's a victim of the patriarchy. Kevan doesn't want her to rule because she's a woman, not because she's batshit crazy. Loras isn't an honorable warrior who deeply loved Renly; he's suddenly a foppish fashionista who's banging his squire because he's there. The Sparrows aren't a peasant uprising against the excesses of the High Septon and the ruling class, they're the Westboro Baptist Church in sackcloth. Melisandre can't keep her clothes on. 

And the beat goes on. 

Oh, and popularity is no guarantee of quality. 

I applaud this post, spot on!

[Alayne's Shadow.]

Honest question here. What were the other necessary plot points to adapt, concerning Stannis? I was just reminded of the way Kubrick would adapt novels. He would take 6-8 of the most important plot points of the entire book and then add his own content and interpretation. Are his movies bad adaptations?

Are you comparing Kubrick with David and Dan? Let's just leave this one as it is, because I don't think I'd like to hear any answer about it. 

[Stag_legion]

Honest question here. What were the other necessary plot points to adapt, concerning Stannis? I was just reminded of the way Kubrick would adapt novels. He would take 6-8 of the most important plot points of the entire book and then add his own content and interpretation. Are his movies bad adaptations?

His northern allies, duh

The story isn't the same without them. In the show stannis is simply invading the north and make no attempt at actually winning over the north. That letter from lyanna mormont doesn't count, as its meaningless without deepwood motte and subsequent alliance between stannis and mormonts.

In the books the letter is meant to show that the northern houses aren't in a position to joins stannis and they don't really trust or respect him yet. In the show it was simply used as a means to mock stannis and make Jon snow smirk. The letter made sense later when the mormonts joined stannis.

[protar]

Well in the show he gets kidnapped, he fights zombies, gets sold into slavery, meets Dany. They took the best bits and cut out a lot of fat, which would have been the beginning of his arc. Yes I did quite like his time in the sellsword company in the books, but it took a lot to get to that point. Thats precisely what they should have been doing. Much of the event of those books happens towards the end, and much of the set up is very plodding. 

A good narrative isn't always about rushing from one plot point to the next as quickly as possible. In fact it seldom is. Much of Feast and Dance are plodding but Tyrion's arc really cannot be described as that. Every chapter has major plot progression as I recall. Cutting the Aegon plot line is not trimming the fat. Something like Tyrion's time as a slave to Yezzan zo Quagaz - that is fat. If they'd skipped straight from that to joining sellswords that would be trimming the fat. Cutting out a game changing plot line is trimming the meat. That's basically D+D's adaptational process. They trim the meat and leave the fat. 

Honestly - and this is an aside - I think D+D should have just handed over the mantle after season 3. And I don't say that only because the quality of writing dropped. I say that because it's very clear that their passion lies with the first three books, specifically everything prior to the Red Wedding. They outright said that reaching that was their goal. They just clearly didn't care for the last two books and we can see that they're trying to wrap things up ASAP while HBO would happily go 10 seasons. 

[Lautrec]

Are you comparing Kubrick with David and Dan? Let's just leave this one as it is, because I don't think I'd like to hear any answer about it. 

Erm, no? Of course not. I wouldn't even compare the best of Martin with the worst of Kubrick. I'm talking about adapting literature.