Stannis the character was ruined for me

[JonCon's Red Beard]

But his book version, despite his ambitions he is a guy with a strict sense of justice, duty and law is important for him and  that is the main reason he is fighting for the throne, his brother was betrayed by his queen, the three heirs are bastards and he is the rightful heir, but D&D portrayed him as greedy as Renly. Why they switched his characterization and motivations so much?

See, I think the big failure here is that the show portrays ambition as something bad when it's not. The books don't: a lot of people are ambitious and this isn't a bad thing. It's readers the ones seeing it as such.

[Arrow of the Morning]

See, I think the big failure here is that the show portrays ambition as something bad when it's not. The books don't: a lot of people are ambitious and this isn't a bad thing. It's readers the ones seeing it as such.

They actually seems to condemn ambition just when they want. Renly was not portrayed so negatively as his older brother, despite he had no good claim for the throne.  

[TheKitttenGuard]

*on mobile and replying in quote box's do not carry over

 

One thing I am finding very clear is several people are in love with set-up and potential.

Well, it looks that you wanted to rush into a epic moment without contexr you talentless hack. 

Many of the logical holes are just nitpicking.  It is also denying what actually was shown and said on screen.  Many people will then point to a lot of book material that the show never 

How silly.

Popular characters get popular when they are marketed right. Few people knew who Oberyn Martell was before Season 4 and now he has become a pop culture referent even for those who haven't read the books.

Arianne was a winning formula: sell her as a strong princess and you'll have an army of female watchers fangirling for her and feel inspired while the boys can awe.

 

 That is a very true and if they decided to have Arianne I think she is very easy to sell.

I do not know what going on with Dorne that feels connected with the rest of the show.  

We may know more by the end of S6 on how it will connect back to the general story

We may know by the end of TWOW why they made the decision.

 

 

It's all set-up and potential.

 

[SeanF]

How silly.

Popular characters get popular when they are marketed right. Few people knew who Oberyn Martell was before Season 4 and now he has become a pop culture referent even for those who haven't read the books.

Arianne was a winning formula: sell her as a strong princess and you'll have an army of female watchers fangirling for her and feel inspired while the boys can awe.

Simplifying the story is necessary. But, Arianne would surely be fine as the leader of the hard line party in Dorne, who clashes with her cautious father, and attempts a coup, because she wants to avenge the death of her uncle and march on Kings Landing, with Myrcella being badly injured as a result. Then you have her learning from her father that he shares her desire for revenge and betrothed her to Viserys, and she jumps to the conclusion that Dany murdered Viserys. That sets her up to be an antagonist to Dany in future series, even if you cut Aegon out of the story.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

They actually seems to condemn ambition just when they want. Renly was not portrayed so negatively as his older brother, despite he had no good claim for the throne.  

In the books, Renly is ambitious, but in the show, he's not. He's doing it because he believes Robert was a mess and the Realm needed a better King. I think he also says something like this in books, but also, his motivations are more ridden by his own ego and personal ambitions.

This is what I meant when I said they show bias and pass judgement. They believe what Renly did was ok, so, they portray his campaign favourably. They never liked Stannis, so they simply portray ambitions negatively despite ambition by itself is not a negative trait. Was it so hard to show them both ambiguous so we audience can decide?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Simplifying the story is necessary. But, Arianne would surely be fine as the leader of the hard line party in Dorne, who clashes with her cautious father, and attempts a coup, because she wants to avenge the death of her uncle and march on Kings Landing, with Myrcella being badly injured as a result. Then you have her learning from her father that he shares her desire for revenge and betrothed her to Viserys, and she jumps to the conclusion that Dany murdered Viserys. That sets her up to be an antagonist to Dany in future series, even if you cut Aegon out of the story.

Bold I agree. Just the other day I was commenting to a person I was discussing the show with that, objectively, cutting Aegon wasn't a bad idea by itself. The problem aren't the cuts but how inefficient they have been tying the loose ends those cuts caused.

About Arianne, there is no real satisfactory explanation of what happened to her. Saying that she's not relevant to the main storyline is not a good answer because, who is then? The Sand Snakes? There is no way the Sand Snakes have a better and more important participation in ASOIAF than Arianne Martell herself. By removing Arianne to "simplify" the story they are taking Dorne's purpose.

[John Doe]

They should have been consequent and either cut Dorne completely if they don't want to do it properly or try to integrate storylines from wow, either by asking Martin or delaying the dornish plot and giving us the Riverlands, Vale and North storylines instead in full, thereby building up the tension for a great Stark comeback in season 6. They could even have replaced Dorne with the Iron Islands which would have set the stage for the Ironborn/Reach conflict Sam happens to be part of in Oldtown. Cutting Aegon is no problem in itself, the problem is that they left what used to be the build up for his alliance and another character they cut and did basically nothing satisfying with it. So far we can see a clear pattern, the closer they stick to the books, the better the season.

But again, changes aren't the problem, it's the execution. I wish Martin was more involved in the series then he is now. And no, I'm not a D&D basher, they adapted (despite of some minor problems) the first three books very well and the fourth season was still good, but season 5 was just a huge letdown, despite of a good cast (except for Obara and Nymeria Sand, in my opinion). 

Maybe these changes will lead to a great sixth season, but I very much doubt season 5 couldn't have been done any better.

 

[Dolorous Gabe]

To respond to the topic, Tijgy posted this little essay on the changes between book and show on the depictions of Stannis and Renly elsewhere and I don't know if it has been posted on this thread (apologies if it has) but I feel it is worth posting here for anyone who is interested in reading a very well researched piece on the subject.

It clearly points out how the show has its own depiction of Stannis that is not in-keeping with GRRM's intentions. For the record, that in itself is not necessarily a bad thing but it explains why people who are fans of book-Stannis would be disappointed by show-Stannis, however good Stephen Dillane is (and of course he was very good).

[Toth]

For the record, that in itself is not necessarily a bad thing but it explains why people who are fans of book-Stannis would be disappointed by show-Stannis, however good Stephen Dillane is (and of course he was very good).

Awesome analysis and full agreement to that last point. Stephen Dillane is Stannis. I always had the feeling that whenever Dillane looked unhappy during all his most OOC situations it was not only Stannis being unhappy about the situation, it was Dillane himself. I guess I also always got the feeling out of his interviews where he was always less than enthusiastic about his character.

For me it sounds like this: "It is not a question of wanting. The role is mine, as a contracted actor. That is law.  I am Stannis Baratheon. Wants do not enter into it. I have a duty to my reputation as shakespearean actor. To the audience. Even to D&D. They love me but little, I know, yet they are my producers."

[Eddard Scissorhands]

I'll ask you again, what is this exciting material that was omitted?

My personal take on it is that it has less to do with omission and more to do with the simplification of plotlines they choose to portray.

I understand ommision but they did oversimplify some things just a tad too much.

I always defend the show when it deserves so, but it pains me to say, no matter how I turn it and try to be objective, that they dumbed down some bits in this season a bit too much.

I can come up with lots of 'good' arguments why, but still can't change the way I feel about it in my guts.

Everything has their ups an downs.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

My personal take on it is that it has less to do with omission and more to do with the simplification of plotlines they choose to portray.

I understand ommision but they did oversimplify some things just a tad too much.

 

I always defend the show when it deserves so, but it pains me to say, no matter how I turn it and try to be objective, that they dumbed down some bits in this season a bit too much.

 

I can come up with lots of 'good' arguments why, but still can't change the way I feel about it in my guts.

 

Everything has their ups an downs.

 

I wouldn't deny the show has been dumbed down, and its definitely at its most dumb this season with a number of elements being particularly dumb.

Definitely things were simplified too, sometimes for the good and sometimes for the bad. 

But I'm still coming from the position that the books had a lot of major unadaptable flaws that didn't suit the programme that had already been established, and I'm not convinced that any of the storylines that were left out or delayed were all that great that it would have saved the season.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Awesome analysis and full agreement to that last point. Stephen Dillane is Stannis. I always had the feeling that whenever Dillane looked unhappy during all his most OOC situations it was not only Stannis being unhappy about the situation, it was Dillane himself. I guess I also always got the feeling out of his interviews where he was always less than enthusiastic about his character.

For me it sounds like this: "It is not a question of wanting. The role is mine, as a contracted actor. That is law.  I am Stannis Baratheon. Wants do not enter into it. I have a duty to my reputation as shakespearean actor. To the audience. Even to D&D. They love me but little, I know, yet they are my producers."

amazing.

Dillane seems like a serious actor to me, very involved in his roles. I wouldn't doubt he has read or at least, he has done some research and he might have already realised how his character is so so so different to the book source.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

amazing.

Dillane seems like a serious actor to me, very involved in his roles. I wouldn't doubt he has read or at least, he has done some research and he might have already realised how his character is so so so different to the book source.

Nice guesswork

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Nice guesswork

Thank you.

 

[Le Cygne]

amazing.

Dillane seems like a serious actor to me, very involved in his roles. I wouldn't doubt he has read or at least, he has done some research and he might have already realised how his character is so so so different to the book source.

The guy who plays Roose said the same thing. He realized his character was so different, he stopped reading the books.

https://www.yahoo.com/tv/s/game-thrones-q-michael-mcelhatton-talks-roose-bolton-162631406.html

[JonCon's Red Beard]

The guy who plays Roose said the same thing. He realized his character was so different, he stopped reading the books.

https://www.yahoo.com/tv/s/game-thrones-q-michael-mcelhatton-talks-roose-bolton-162631406.html

Michael: [...]I think he was a more obvious bad guy and stuff like that and a kind of creepier character in the books, but they wanted to play [it] for the shock factor of The Red Wedding

He totally gets it.

No wonder he was sent to the background in Season 5: he confessed to have read the books.

[Stannis the Wight]

Fucking Brienne... 

[Le Cygne]

The Hound fight ruined show Brienne for me, and she is one of my favorite book characters. I had to keep reminding myself, she's not that way in the books. Sansa is another one, do not like on the show, at all. At least my other favorites, I can sort of tolerate.

Most of them are so different, they would have done readers a favor by just renaming the lot of them.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

Michael: [...]I think he was a more obvious bad guy and stuff like that and a kind of creepier character in the books, but they wanted to play [it] for the shock factor of The Red Wedding

He totally gets it.

No wonder he was sent to the background in Season 5: he confessed to have read the books.

this is the sort of thing that makes me face palm. 

[Le Cygne]

they wanted to play [it] for the shock factor

Time and time again.