Stannis the character was ruined for me

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

You don't think the events of the Red Wedding are MEANT to be shocking?!

[Alayne's Shadow.]

You don't think the events of the Red Wedding are MEANT to be shocking?!

They aren't supposed to be shocking without meaning, that much is sure. That's why in the books we have a tense Cat, and the horror keeps building up - In the show, she's smiling and happy, to make it more shocking for the sake of shocking. Same with Robb's wife. It makes sense that Jeyne isn't at the Red Wedding, but they couldn't lose the opportunity to stab Robb's wife in the stomach several times in the show, right? 

I think considering the Red Wedding just cheap shock without meaning cheapens the entire situation George constructed on the books. In there, the event was being telegraphed the whole time. Of course it's shocking. But it's quite a bit more than just that. 

[Dolorous Gabe]

You don't think the events of the Red Wedding are MEANT to be shocking?!

As Alayne's Shadow said, GRRM telegraphed it much more than the show did. The point of keeping Robb a non-POV character was to distance him because ultimately his part in the full story is limited.

D&D made him much more a major character to up the shock level, along with making his wife pregnant and present at RW. These were forgivable (I still like the show's version because it was well built up thanks to following the books relatively closely but I now think Michelle Fairley had a lot to do with that, she was incredible in that sequence) until it turned out they seem to think that heightening the shock factor and outdoing their previous shocks was so high on their agenda. It also highlights the way they planned at the start mainly to reach RW. Everything else seems to have mattered much less to them.

It seems to me much less a story than a product now.

[Le Cygne]

It seems to me much less a story than a product now.

Yes. It's a product designed for maximum shock factor.

There are ways to build up to things that don't scrap character development, and plot depth. This is cheap, easy way out, to do it this way. You didn't see THAT coming. Well, no, you didn't, because they didn't play fair. They pulled it out of their butts.

[Le Cygne]

They aren't supposed to be shocking without meaning, that much is sure. That's why in the books we have a tense Cat, and the horror keeps building up - In the show, she's smiling and happy, to make it more shocking for the sake of shocking. Same with Robb's wife. It makes sense that Jeyne isn't at the Red Wedding, but they couldn't lost the opportunity to stab Robb's wife in the stomach several times in the show, right? 

I think considering the Red Wedding just cheap shock without meaning cheapens the entire situation George constructed on the books. In there, the event was being telegraphed the whole time. Of course it's shocking. But it's quite a bit more than just that. 

Yes, all of this. There's that build up of tension, it's subtle, but it's there, and you can't shake it, even though you want to. That's good storytelling. It has to mean something, and the way for it to mean something is right there in that build up. So you can't cut the build up.

[Eddard Scissorhands]

this is the sort of thing that makes me face palm. 

What I read into the whole Roose thing, which also ties into the actor quote, is:

I think book Roose is meant to give the readers a bit of an uneasy feeling beforehand. that you might go like 'damn, yup that was it' at the RW.

Show Roose has a little bit of those signs in the show, in his body language if you really pay attention, but waay more subtle, so the shock factor can be greater afterwards. Which is OK in the show intended context, being considerably more sober than the books.

But if the show had been produced more in the veins of say Vikings, they would have gone all the way vampire leech Roose as a creepy but still believable 'loyal' Lord within his ancient Northern ways, and still have your jaw at the floor at the RW. Not necessarily a better (or worse) approach, just different.

Sorry for drifting further offroad.

[Lautrec]

Yes. It's a product designed for maximum shock factor.

There are ways to build up to things that don't scrap character development, and plot depth. This is cheap, easy way out, to do it this way. You didn't see THAT coming. Well, no, you didn't, because they didn't play fair. They pulled it out of their butts.

As opposed to Martin? Who flat-out said in an interview that the reason he did the RW was to top the shock of Ned's death. 
http://www.ew.com/article/2013/06/02/game-of-thrones-author-george-r-r-martin-why-he-wrote-the-red-wedding

"I killed Ned because everybody thinks he’s the hero and that, sure, he’s going to get into trouble, but then he’ll somehow get out of it. The next predictable thing is to think his eldest son is going to rise up and avenge his father. And everybody is going to expect that. So immediately [killing Robb] became the next thing I had to do." - GRRM

 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

Whatever people say of the Red Wedding, it was massively shocking in the books. Its unlikely you'd expect it unless you were reading very carefully, and the first read I doubt many saw it coming at all. GRRM clearly meant to shock. 

In the tv show too, it was meant to shock, it really is a shocking event that you don't honestly see coming. Although I do think it wasn't totally out of the blue either on the show. There was also a build up of tension there too. Its all a bit of a non argument as far as I can see.

[John Doe]

Martin doesn't sacrifice a logical plot and character developement for shocking scenes, the show runners do. No comparison can be made here.

 

Speaking of the books/show in general and not just the RW, which was done well in my opinion.

[Dragon in the North]

 

Martin doesn't sacrifice a logical plot and character developement for shocking scenes, the show runners do. No comparison can be made here.

I thought the events that happened after the Pink Letter were pretty illogical. Jon Snow spent the entire book trying to convince others that the White Walker threat existed and that was the enemy they should be focusing on. Pink Letter came and Jon conveniently forgot everything he had been saying and decided to take a large force from the Wall and attack the Boltons.

[John Doe]

 

 

I thought the events that happened after the Pink Letter were pretty illogical. Jon Snow spent the entire book trying to convince others that the White Walker threat existed and that was the enemy they should be focusing on. Pink Letter came and Jon conveniently forgot everything he had been saying and decided to take a large force from the Wall and attack the Boltons.

Wasn't he a bit drunk? Plus it was his sister, for all he knew his last surviving relative, and captive of a family his own family lost everything to. Seems at least  like a convincing motivation to me.

[Dragon in the North]

 

Wasn't he a bit drunk? Plus it was his sister, for all he knew his last surviving relative, and captive of a family his own family lost everything to. Seems at least  like a convincing motivation to me.

He didn't march with an army when his sister was marrying a Bolton, but he marched when his sister escaped? That doesn't make sense to me.

[Le Cygne]

The point is, GRRM builds up to things...

[Lautrec]

He used prose to make it tense and give it build-up, David Nutter used the visual language of film, and the script was well written. The whole sequence is filled with intentionally ugly lighting in an ugly hall, taking place at night. We know from before that Walder Frey is an untrustworthy, unpleasant character, the episode (the important episode 9 nonetheless) starts with him making awkward insults and talking about giving his protection in the most obviously forced and deceitful tone possible. Everyone with a sense of time knows that the episode is ending with the wedding, so something has to happen. 
During the wedding, The Rains of Castamere starts and plays, and the gate is slowly closed, Roose Bolton sits next to Catelyn, and notices his chain mail. A whole two and a half minutes pass between the gates being closed and the massacre starting. You are talking about it like they were sitting at the table and then out of nowhere everyone just drops dead to shock the audience. The tension in the scene was palpable, with good build-up. You are simply looking for something to hate, not critiquing something you think deserves being scrutinized. I remember when the episode came out people complained that, unlike in the book, Catelyn says that the musicians are fine. Wow, that hint of utmost importance, without it the whole system of foreshadowing falls apart.

Besides, I have no clue where this idea that Martin is some kind of master writer writing important literature come from. He writes pop fantasy and he very much has the intention of eliciting strong reactions, most pertinently shock, just like the show. His own words again: "I want reads to be afraid of turning the next page." There is nothing wrong with that, in fact the books are mostly quite good, but please, let's stop this pretension that Benioff and Weiss are Dan Brown working in TV and that Martin is Camus whose book is being butchered.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

let's stop this pretension that Benioff and Weiss are Dan Brown working in TV and that Martin is Camus whose book is being butchered.

Lol..

I totally second that. 

[Eltharion21]

Some people here seem to value the "shocking " scenes , exploding wights, dragon cgi as pinnacle of storytelling.

Martin stated many times over that hardest scene he had to write was the Red Wedding and wrote it last .

He doesn't kill characters for shock factor only , or to get viewers , or to replicate jaw dropping moments to fill quota for the season , he does it to advance or  change story , cause character development, in believable way unlike show writers did with Stannis , Sansa , Dorne and many other characterizations and story lines this season.

[A Ghost of Someone]

Jon never forgets that the Others are the primary enemy (the wall was built to stop the others but the wildings attacked and invaded so much over the centuries and millenia that the watch had to fight them for off for years, even seeking them out beyond the wall to do so) but there is still enough Stark/empathy in him to want to save his kid sister who, unlike the show was married to a known monster and that nothing good will come of it. However, he sends Mance in a "covert" operation to get her out of there. Not really breaking his vows but when he learns of her escape through the pink letter and that he and the Night's Watch is being directly threatened, that gives him a desired but more importantly "justifiable" pretext to do something about it.  In the books though, I have a feeling that his attackers were being warged when they attacked him. Just a hunch as they were all scared and in denial when they stabbed him or at the least, some of them were.

[Le Cygne]

Yes, that's how it happened (not commenting on the warging part, just what led up to his ultimate breaking point). Build up. Until he just couldn't take it anymore.

[A Ghost of Someone]

Bingo

 

[thehandwipes]

 

I thought the events that happened after the Pink Letter were pretty illogical. Jon Snow spent the entire book trying to convince others that the White Walker threat existed and that was the enemy they should be focusing on. Pink Letter came and Jon conveniently forgot everything he had been saying and decided to take a large force from the Wall and attack the Boltons.

https://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/2013/10/29/other-wars-part-v-the-peace-the-pink-letter-and-the-shieldhall-speech/