Question about Edmure Tully

[purple-eyes]

He is the only son and heir of Riverlands. 

He is somewhere between 26 - 33 years old. 

He is not gay or very stubborn like his uncle or crippled and disabled like Willas or Tyrion. 

His father once proposed that he married Arianne, so his father is concerned about this. 

Obviously Frey tried very hard to marry his daughter to him since he was born.  

(by the way, Arianne is the heir too, how can this work? Can she rule Dorne from Riverrun or Edmure rule riverlands from Dorne?)

But Edmure did not marry until he was forced to marry Roslin after his daddy died!

Is this because we need an important bridegroom for the Red Wedding?

 

 

 

[aryagonnakill#2]

He is the only son and heir of Riverlands. 

He is somewhere between 26 - 33 years old. 

He is not gay or very stubborn like his uncle or crippled and disabled like Willas or Tyrion. 

His father once proposed that he married Arianne, so his father is concerned about this. 

Obviously Frey tried very hard to marry his daughter to him since he was born.  

(by the way, Arianne is the heir too, how can this work? Can she rule Dorne from Riverrun or Edmure rule riverlands from Dorne?)

But Edmure did not marry until he was forced to marry Roslin after his daddy died!

Is this because we need an important bridegroom for the Red Wedding?

 

 

 

Not wanting to marry a Frey makes sense, but not marrying at all is kind of a plot hole.  I know people don't like that word but in most cases even someone Robbs age would have had a betrothal.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

He is male. In the medieval world a lady would have a clock over how many years she could produce an heir, a dude less so.

Both his older sisters were married off to important powerful Lords so the need for alliances was less of an issue for House Tully.

We know that Lysa and Brynden both fell out with Hoster over marriage alliances, it could be that Hoster did not want to go through that again and instead was a little more patient with his last remaining relative at Riverrun.

We also know that Hoster had been depressed after his wife had died, maybe some of his ambition had been lost. Maybe he was holding out for Arrianne (whose father was avoiding marriage), Sansa or Margaery (still too young).

[WolfgangII]

Not wanting to marry a Frey makes sense, but not marrying at all is kind of a plot hole.  I know people don't like that word but in most cases even someone Robbs age would have had a betrothal.

I started a thread about how odd it was that Robb was still single and un-bethrothed by AGOT, but learned that 14 years old is not that old and, as the heir of a Lord Paramount, why not wait for the perfect opportunity to marry your son.

In th case of Edmure, this is not the case because not only he is way older, but his father has being trying to marry him. I'm sure this was necessary for the plot.

The problem with Edmure is that, he is the heir. If something happens to him, the next in line is his uncle Brynden, who is also famously single and older. If something happens to both of them, Riverrun will pass to... Brandon Stark?

[Nyrhex]

Not wanting to marry a Frey makes sense, but not marrying at all is kind of a plot hole.  I know people don't like that word but in most cases even someone Robbs age would have had a betrothal.

Edmure's age is kinda problematic. I tend to see it as closer to 26, since Ned calls him a boy still. 26 and "boy" don't usually find themselve refering to the same person, so Ned Stark in his ripe old age of ~35, who had led men into war at ~21, is calling a 26 year old a boy because he is acting relatively young for his age. I can't see him calling a 33 year old "boy" in any case. I think in AGOT he was meant to be a teen or something.

Edmure not being married is indeed a plot hole, but not the only one. Willas is 24-30 and heir to a much larger title. His younger brother was married before him, and a friggin limp does not justify a lack of a marriage. There are other cases like this, but Edmure is kinda obviouse when you see just how few family memebers the Tully clan has. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

I started a thread about how odd it was that Robb was still single and un-bethrothed by AGOT, but learned that 14 years old is not that old and, as the heir of a Lord Paramount, why not wait for the perfect opportunity to marry your son.

In th case of Edmure, this is not the case because not only he is way older, but his father has being trying to marry him. I'm sure this was necessary for the plot.

The problem with Edmure is that, he is the heir. If something happens to him, the next in line is his uncle Brynden, who is also famously single and older. If something happens to both of them, Riverrun will pass to... Brandon Stark?

To Brandon Tully.

Almost a hundred Houses has not survived for more than thousand years without the occasional relative from a female branch changing their name. Either there would be some law prohibiting females and their heirs from ever inheriting ahead of any living male with the right last name or they simply change their name.

We know there are Arryns alive, yet they are all behind the grandson of Jon Arryns sister. This can not be the first time this has happened so common sense dictates that they change their name for the sake of continuity.

[Good Guy Garlan]

To add to the plot holiness of it all, there's the fact that marriages can make or break a war. Edmure should have at least tried to get some lord's support in exchange for marrying said lord's daughter. 

[purple-eyes]

To Brandon Tully.

Almost a hundred Houses has not survived for more than thousand years without the occasional relative from a female branch changing their name. Either there would be some law prohibiting females and their heirs from ever inheriting ahead of any living male with the right last name or they simply change their name.

We know there are Arryns alive, yet they are all behind the grandson of Jon Arryns sister. This can not be the first time this has happened so common sense dictates that they change their name for the sake of continuity.

But Brandon is also the heir of Winterfell. 

In this case, I think Catelyn will rule as Lady of Riverlands from Winterfell and her second son like Bran will get Riverrun. 

But yeah, this will be also a Brandon Tully. Bran Tully. 

Same thing with Arianne. 

She was planning to marry Willas or Edmure. 

Apparently she will rule as Princess of Dorne at the same time and her daughter or second son will become the future ruler of Sunspear. 

And first son will take Highgarden or Riverrun. 

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

To add to the plot holiness of it all, there's the fact that marriages can make or break a war. Edmure should have at least tried to get some lord's support in exchange for marrying said lord's daughter. 

True. But to who?

By the time Edmure was freed the Reach, Stormlands and Westerlands was not an option. Robb thought that his friendship with Theon and his aunt in the Vale would be enough, turns out it was not and Robb only fully realizes this once he is in the West.

 

Dorne was the only real marriage alliance, but because of the distance was it really worthwhile sending an envoy? Is something like this going to be taken seriously from a Raven?

[purple-eyes]

Edmure's age is kinda problematic. I tend to see it as closer to 26, since Ned calls him a boy still. 26 and "boy" don't usually find themselve refering to the same person, so Ned Stark in his ripe old age of ~35, who had led men into war at ~21, is calling a 26 year old a boy because he is acting relatively young for his age. I can't see him calling a 33 year old "boy" in any case. I think in AGOT he was meant to be a teen or something.

Edmure not being married is indeed a plot hole, but not the only one. Willas is 24-30 and heir to a much larger title. His younger brother was married before him, and a friggin limp does not justify a lack of a marriage. There are other cases like this, but Edmure is kinda obviouse when you see just how few family memebers the Tully clan has. 

Willas is also a plot hole I think. 

I also have a feeling that he will end up marrying Arianne (if she does not die with Aegon). These two can make a miracle couple. 

1. Dorne and Reach are neighbors as well as bitter enemies. They really need a marriage to settle down, like Iron throne and Dorne. 

2. Both in the right age. Arianne 23, Willas one or a few years older than her. Perfect. 

3. Arianne's uncle directly caused his leg issue (not intentionally, but anyway), so it sounds quite dramatic. By the way, Willas and Oberyn had a good friendship, we know Arianne is more like her uncle, not her daddy. And it is funny that it is Oberyn himself who captured Arianne when she ran to meet Willas, now he died, so he can not stop her again.  

4. We have that "flower bows to the sun". I can see Willas the broken rose fell for a super hot sun princess Arianne. 

 

[Damsel in Distress]

Arrianne was meant for bigger fish than Edmure.  Edmure is a tiny trout.  She was kept single for King Viserys Targaryen, rightful ruler of the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros.  By all rights, Edmure Tully's king.

[Pete Martell]

To add to the plot holiness of it all, there's the fact that marriages can make or break a war. Edmure should have at least tried to get some lord's support in exchange for marrying said lord's daughter. 

Didn't he do just that? Or do you mean from the get-go?

[FuzzyJAM]

Edmure was in no rush to get married himself and Hoster couldn't get a marriage that he deemed good enough.  Hoster was plainly aiming very high and had already secured two (actually three, but one died...) Lords Paramount for his children.  I guess he figured there was still a little time.  

But yes, it's a little questionable that this wasn't a big issue and Hoster wasn't willing to lower his aim when his son got to his mid-20's unmarried.

[Jon Flowers]

I think that Edmure staying single is mostly due to Hoster's illness.  I think that a healthy Hoster, unless he had good reason to do otherwise, would most certainly not  be shy about forcing his heir to marry (I would base this upon his forcing an abortion on his younger daughter and explicitly forbidding her from pursuing a politically inexpedient relationship, his alienation from his brother, brought on by attempting to force him to marry and finally, by commanding his daughter to marry the younger brother of her erstwhile fiancé after he was killed).  Basically, if Lord Hoster had a match in mind for Edmure and was still of sound mind and body, I don't think there's much that could keep Edmure from getting married, willing or no.

[aryagonnakill#2]

True. But to who?

By the time Edmure was freed the Reach, Stormlands and Westerlands was not an option. Robb thought that his friendship with Theon and his aunt in the Vale would be enough, turns out it was not and Robb only fully realizes this once he is in the West.

 

Dorne was the only real marriage alliance, but because of the distance was it really worthwhile sending an envoy? Is something like this going to be taken seriously from a Raven?

Not that it would have worked, but we know they were trying to get the Iron Isles on their side and Asha was single as well.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Not that it would have worked, but we know they were trying to get the Iron Isles on their side and Asha was single as well.

But Robb had Theon. The two of them convinced themselves that Balon would just agree to ally with Robb for little tangible incentive. That is not a plot a hole, that is just the naivety of Robb and the arrogance of Theon at the beginning of the series.

Robb by ASOS would have most likely tried to include a marriage alliance, the Robb of AGOT/early ACOK was still his fathers child; who had taught him of honour and nobility and little of the political needs of ruling a House of Westeros.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Didn't he do just that? Or do you mean from the get-go?

Yeah, from the get-go. Like, from the Whispering Woods to Robb's return. I mean, I know it was a long shot, but he could've at least tried. There's Yohn Bronze, big Stark fan, his daughter Ysilla still not married to Mychel Redfort, with his own ports which he could use to transport some forces and bypass Lysa's ban, for example. There are the Yronwoods, whatever Fossoways fought the Lannisters at Blackwater, the bet-hedging Swanns who like to have a foot in every camp, etc. 

Like I said, it was a long shot, but you try anything when you're fighting a war. 

[CJ McLannister]

I think that Edmure staying single is mostly due to Hoster's illness.

I'm not sure if it's really supported by the text, but this is the impression I got.  Cat seems really offended that Edmure is acting like the lord of Riverrun before Hoster is dead, but it seems like he's been doing so for quite awhile, and that Hoster had been weak for longer than Cat ever really knew.

That being said, with the marriage alliances with the Starks and Arryns, Edmure, as lord, would be looking for a marriage within the riverlands.  Obviously Hoster specifically wanted to exclude the Freys out of spite.  For political reasons, it would make sense to strengthen bonds with one of the significant houses bordering the crownlands or the Lannisters.  

By that time, it seems like Walder had already claimed all the female Darrys.  The Mooton girl betrothed to Dickon Tarly may have been too young.  Jonos Bracken does not lack in daughters, but that whole Bracken-Blackwood feud might discourage any such match.

Obviously we don't know enough about all the houses and their daughters to know who else was out there, but it almost seems like Walder Frey almost went out of his way to limit Edmure's options.  A "foreign" bride was certainly possible, and marrying into house Lannister would be politically advantageous, but would have caused some story problems.

[WolfgangII]

To Brandon Tully.

Almost a hundred Houses has not survived for more than thousand years without the occasional relative from a female branch changing their name. Either there would be some law prohibiting females and their heirs from ever inheriting ahead of any living male with the right last name or they simply change their name.

We know there are Arryns alive, yet they are all behind the grandson of Jon Arryns sister. This can not be the first time this has happened so common sense dictates that they change their name for the sake of continuity.

Yes, is logical that this case had happen before. I believe it provides the House a sense of continuity and cohesion. There is also the issue of lordship. As Balon Greyjoy said when facing Robert Baratheon, the Greyjoys bowed to House Targaryen, not Baratheon. For a new lord from a different House, its easier to change his last name and said, "now, I'm House X" so your vows of loyalty remains the same.

[Ser Leftwich]

Combination of plot and Hoster being sick for the past few years. Hoster has not been well enough to pursue a match for Edmure.