Why do you like this character: Jaime

[shizett]

One main reason why Jaime abandoned Cersei at the end of FfC was because at that point he basically hated her. He now believes that she had lied, manipulated and used him his entire life, he had finally realized Cersei's true colours and now he wants nothing to do with her. Jaime didn't abandon the kids, he didn't think they were in the danger. 

I see.

Maybe I am reading it wrong, but isn't it the case that if the incest story comes out, all their kids are in danger? I feel like I am capitalizing too much on them being family, but the whole point of being a family is that one's acts have an impact on all the other family members as well, especially in Westeros and especially in case of Jaime and Cersei.

I know that generally speaking many people (of power as well as normal) know about the incest. I would assume that if it gets proven in a trial or such, it is bound to make a big impact on their lives.

[shizett]

Thanks for the reply, shizett.   Good luck with Dany and Sansa.   Can't wait to see your take on both.   Point for point then, since i can't quote...

Thanks. After reading the responses to this post and rethinking all three I think I am getting them better as well.

Thanks for the point by point reply. I feel so humbled that you guys are taking your time and helping me understand a character better.

Sorry I am late in my response, time just flied last week and I though I really owed you a thought out response, not just the one I already had in mind. I will try to answer you point by point too:

As for Bran, I am sure if King Robert learned about the incest, all of them would die. One person against five, all of whom his family and loved-ones, is something I understand. I find the act very cruel too. I wasn't defending him in anyways.  Surely there was another way short of the attempted murder of a small child?   I couldn't tell you what alternative, but there is always another way.   I didn't see as much "5" in Jaime's thoughts as you do.   All I saw was blind protection of 1, Cersei.   Not Jamie, not the children.   Only Cersei.    

I see your point. It is just because we do not see his thought process, I am givign him the benefit of the doubt. But maybe your are right ...

As for Aerys, he is a monster, but so what? I see your point about his loyalties to his father and raise you Master Aemon. I would say, maybe if Jaime would think a bit about the vows he made and did not see himself so above everything and everyone, he might have taken more care in making those vows.  I would argue that Jamie chose the parts of his vows that suited his conscience in this act.   I don't recall seeing a full on copy of the Kings Guard's vows, but I do recall protecting the weak as being part of them. I see absolute selflessness in this single suicidal act.   

I think protecting the weak is part of Knighthood vows (based on Dunk and Egg stories, but I might be wrong). I think my point is generally that killing Aerys as as multifaceted act as Jaime is as a character. Evaluating the act based on one of these facets is just incomplete and a bit lazy. I understand why Jaime does it, but my general question in the topic was basically that why does the fandom do it too. I am also not so sure about selflessness, they have already won the war, there was no consequences really. I am not arguing that it wasn't selfless, just that we can't be sure of it and frankly his conduct in all the years after doesn't give reasonable doubt. 

As for not explaining himself to others, it does take courage, but it does put bad precedence. If everybody made so low of their vows, westeros would be even worst that it is now.  I have to take this with Cersei's delusions of grandeur and Tywin's formidible reputation in mind...This Lannister committed the highest form of treason to save the seat of the realm.   He did not explain his actions to appease anyone or negate his action or even to bring understanding or greatness to his family's reputation.   He acted bravely and his silence indicates his willingness to suffer far greater consequences than he actually encountered. 

Oh very very interesting. I never looked at his act like this and now I see how that can bring better judgement of the character for Jaime. Thanks

   Tyrion is NOT a demon monkey. He is a person. He is an AMAZING person, he is kind, generous, loyal, smart. To be honest, anyone who isn't Cat or His immediate family sees how great of a guy he is. He makes tons of friends on the wall (Everyone other than Benjen. he even makes friends with Ghost) and in KL. Basically, anyone who is human enough to look past his being a dwarf, sees a great person there. I am going to great lengths to show you how popular he is outside of Lannister family, to show that he needed the most protection in his own family. Jaime did nothing, he also participated in Tysha thing.   No, Tyrion's not a demon monkey, but that is how he is perceived by the many small folk.   Who was it rebuffed Tywin's offer of marriage to Tyrion?   There are some who take the opportunity to get to know Tyrion, but not so many as to negate his "reputation".   And Tyrion is much smarter than the average person in power.  He made plenty of powerful enemies.  I will argue Sansa, who was the recipient of one of Tyrion's more overt kindnesses.   Even she never made it to fan of Tyrion.   She remembers him kindly after the fact but utterly loathed him when they were together.   Her problem was getting beyond Tyrion's being a Lannister more than anything else.   Jamie was Tyrion's only defender who wasn't paid.  This isn't popularity, this is defense.  NOrth men were killed for Tyrion's capture.  The Hand of the King was maimed by Jamie.  When Oberyn chose to be Tyrion's champion he was looking for an excuse to get Gregor--I also picked up on some fondness for Tyrion, but that was secondary.    Jamie was the one who got Tyrion THE HELL OUT of KL.   And lost his father in doing so.  Tysha is often brought up to show what a prick Jamie is.   Not so.   I defy you to show me a place in your past where a gift you thought was brilliant turned out badly or unexpectedly.  Jamie didn't think ahead is what Tysha was.  Jamie wanted to get his brother laid.   He had no idea Tyrion would fall in love and marry the girl.   Jamie couldn't have seen Tywin's punishment either.   There is no fault in a gesture of kindness that goes out of the control of the giver.  

I am not trying to argue that Jaime does not care for Tyrion. I am convinced, as much as you do, that he is genuinely fond of Tyrion. I just don't give many points to Jaime seeing the human inside Tyrion because 1)well he is a human being, 2) he is interesting, 3) he is Jaime's younger brother. I do subtract points when people don't see it though. But I understand if his relationship with Tyrion is something that warms you up to Jaime. 

As for Tysha, Tysha was not a gift. She was exactly who she appeared to be, Jaime didn't have much to do with the appearance of Tysha. He did play a role in Tywin's getting rid of her and he lied to Tyrion about her. By bringing up Tysha, I wasn't trying to show he is a prick but that even given the chance, he chooses the easy way out, even for the cost of his brother's life. It is just hypocritical of him to criticize others for doing the same, especially because in many cases others do not share the same emotional bonds with those they fail to protect. The fact that people do tend to vilify Tyrion makes Tysha a truly significant character in Tyrion's life. Tysha's story is not Jaime's fault, but he does play a (significant) role in it. Tyrion does not accept his father's word, but he does Jaime's.

As for Brienne, Renly, Cat, and Pod saw it too. Besically whoever who came in contact with Brienne. But he sees and appreciates it in its wholeness too.  Renly just sees Brienne's loyalty.   Cat only sees a fast friend in need.   Pod actually gets to spend some time with the lady and idolizes knights anyway.   Jamie sees her for what she is all but immediately. 
 

Brienne is Loyal, no wonder Renly sees it in her, but they do not nearly spend the same amount of time together (maybe he would never warm up to Brienne as much as Jaime did, we just never got the chance to see it). I disagree with Catelyn, she saw the goodness in Brienne. When B swears fealty to Catelyn, she promises to never ask dishonorable acts from her. Pod followed her for completely different reasons than admiration but came to admire her for her too. At this point, it might seem that I am defending others, but I am defending Brienne. My understanding from the story is that people actually see the goodness in Brienne and she generally does way less that what she had to do to make Jaime see it. I am not sure why you say Jaime saw her goodness immediately, she basically has to destroy his ego completely, show strength of character that we haven't seen in many in the story, and show a very compassionate side in forgiving him. I agree that they grow to be great friends, but I count Jaime's good opinion of Brienne as her accomplishment, not his. Please correct me if I am wrong, but Jaime was incredibly insolent at the beginning.

As for him being whiny, Master Aemon goes through the same experience, Jon does too, and even Bran. They all give their own answers and then move on (and they do make a range of answers). They don't mock the whole system, or continue to live a very empty and shallow life and whine to those who are kind enough to listen to them.  But Jamie has a range of answers, as a brother to the queen, uncle to the royal children, a kingsguard, a Lannister, a knight, a spurned lover, a King Slayer, a maimed swordsman.   That's part of the beauty of Jamie, he's deep and multi faceted.  I'm never sure if it's the Lannister mocking the knight or the maimed swordsman mocking the son of Tywin in half of Jamie's internal dialogues...but this is the joy in reading them.   I love Brienne in these places and hope for a good deal more in Winds.  I don't know that this is so much mocking as it is Jamie developing a real self outside all the labels.   

I agree that he is interesting, but my main question was why is he attractive? I think you did answer my question and more by your lengthy response and I am very grateful for that

As for the copy and paste, I tried to got the other way (just because some other poster has done so for me) and it really wasn't worth it!  Very very smart move in not doing so, and it was very easy to read

 

[shizett]

DP.

[shizett]

The way Jaime's introduced to us, he's basically the main antagonist of the first novel. A man who kills kings and pushes little boys out of towers to prove how evil he is with an inexplicable soft spot concerning his brother. Yet the more you learn about him in the second and third novels the more compelling and full his character becomes. You can start to understand why he turned out the way he is and went from an idealistic young knight to a jaded egotist.

There's something compelling about a man who at least tries to better himself, even if he falls short. Most just don't care, point the finger at someone else's flaws to draw attention from their own, or some excuse. The most knightly act in the entire set of novels is Jaime saving Brienne, in my opinion. Her naivete in some ways rekindled Jaime's own better instincts that were generally reserved only for his brother and family, up to a point.

Some people simply aren't going to like him, which is fine, but to me he's one of the most entertaining and complete characters in the novels.

Oh thanks for the insight.

Just for the record, I am not trying to convince others to dislike him or me to like him. I am trying to get others' point of view so that maybe I would join the club too. The fact that many tell me that I might never like him in the end probably means that I asked my question in the wrong way, but thanks for your answer

[Dofs]

I see.

Maybe I am reading it wrong, but isn't it the case that if the incest story comes out, all their kids are in danger? I feel like I am capitalizing too much on them being family, but the whole point of being a family is that one's acts have an impact on all the other family members as well, especially in Westeros and especially in case of Jaime and Cersei.

I know that generally speaking many people (of power as well as normal) know about the incest. I would assume that if it gets proven in a trial or such, it is bound to make a big impact on their lives.

Cersei wasn't accused of incest when she wrote the letter to Jaime; High Septon mentioned incest to her later on. Then, Kevan told the Tyrells that if Cersei loses the trial, Tommen's hold on the throne will become very shaky as people would start questioning his legitimacy, that indicates that his actual legitimacy is not questioned on the trial, which isn't surprising, considering that no one actually accused Cersei for that.

Regarding Jaime, he thought this in his only DwD chapter:

He thought of Myrcella. I will need to tell her too. The Dornishmen might not like that. Doran Martell had betrothed her to his son in the belief that she was Robert's blood. Knots and tangles, Jaime thought, wishing he could cut through all of it with one swift stroke of his sword. 

 Does this sound like Jaime knew that there is a huge risk of Myrcella's and Tommen's true parentage being revealed.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

The other day I did something very very bad and someone sent me a image of Jaime pushing Bran. If he can redeem from that, than I definitely can too!

[Lord Greenhood]

I think most people view him as a hero because of his redemptive storyline. Its always more fun to see a villain become a hero than a hero remaining a hero, as opposed to Daenerys who has always stayed good and will likely remain that way. Reading about a character overcoming their own flaws and changes for the better as a result is far more interesting and a sign of a true hero in my opinion, instead of someone just improving on their own personality.

It's kinda the reverse of a greek tragedy, as it is more sad to watch a good person rise up to only to fall from grace for some bad decisions making (I'm looking at you Robb). It would not be as impactful if the story was about a peasant.

Theon is also becoming a hero I think.

[Curled Finger]

You were very thoughtful yourself to run through all that point by point.  I will try to be more brief in this.  

I think protecting the weak is part of Knighthood vows (based on Dunk and Egg stories, but I might be wrong). I think my point is generally that killing Aerys as as multifaceted act as Jaime is as a character. Evaluating the act based on one of these facets is just incomplete and a bit lazy. I understand why Jaime does it, but my general question in the topic was basically that why does the fandom do it too. I am also not so sure about selflessness, they have already won the war, there was no consequences really. I am not arguing that it wasn't selfless, just that we can't be sure of it and frankly his conduct in all the years after doesn't give reasonable doubt.   You could be right, but Jamie is a knight indeed.   There is an old biblical saying (that I will butcher no doubt because of spending more time in Westeros than church...) It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man to pass the gates of Heaven.   Jamie's grown up privileged and beautiful.  He didn't have to try for love, his girl was built in.   He was a talented swordsman (and presumably horseman).   He was knighted at 15 and immediately scooped up by the king for the Kingsguard.   15, for crying out loud.   This kid had everything going for him and all his heart desired.  He was his father's pride, his sister's great love and his brother's idol.   I'm not sure I would have understood the ramifications of every vow I took at 15 or 25 even.  I think that at what? 17 or 18 Jamie began to get comfortable with his group of peers, who were not peers at all but much older men and really wanted to emulate them.   He wanted to go to war and was kept essentially hostage.   That would have really pissed me off at such a young age.   He's elevated to this elite group and prevented from proving himself.   I think that when Jamie killed Aerys he simply snapped and quit caring about everything except preventing a madman from mass murder and protecting his father.   All the lies he told himself andvows he took bt didn't really understand to get by in KL blew up in his face as he watched his king's descent into madness.  Jamie being a child himself, reacted in a rash and impulsive manner in a dangerous and very volatile situation.   I stated previously that surely there was an alternative to pushing Bran and ask you now, what was Jamie's real alternative to killing Aerys?   

I listened to the books before I read them and have Roy Dotrice's portrayal of Jamie to thank in large for my opinion of this character.   Perhaps because someone else spoke Jamie to me I am influenced by Dotrice's inflections and delivery.   I still hear his Jamie's voice when I read the books now.   To this end when Jamie confesses the events of becoming the Kingslayer it is not with cavalier bravado the story is related.   It is a broken man explaining, not defending, his actions.  He doesn't even try to shock with the story, he just tells it fact for fact with a bit of his own horror at the events.   It's clear he isn't bragging or dodging.  

So the idea of this rich beautiful kid just sitting on a dead man's throne waiting for the new king (not himself, not his father) to claim it speaks volumes about Jamie's character.    

[shizett]

I feel like you're focusing on his character traits and not the experience of reading his chapters. People like him because they think he is an interesting character to read because of his struggles and blunt snarky humour.

As a character Jaime has obviously done many bad things, and is rude to most people he talks to. I wouldn't like Jaime if he was an actual person. His internal dialogue is interesting to read though. 

I haven't heard much about him being a hero, but he's definitely on a redemption arch. That doesn't have to end with heroism, but he is taking actions to be a better person.

I'm also not sure what your issues are with him being a hero. Anyone can do heroic acts, they don't need to be morally just. I also think you praise Tyrion a bit too much considering how little he can care for other people's feelings as well.

I think you are very right in your opinion that my problems with the response to the character comes from the fact that I am looking at the character and not the story. I am coming to the same conclusion myself.

Actually, I have no problem with Jaime becoming a hero, I don't have a problem with the character at all, only the response to him. I understand that he is redeeming himself and when I read the story I thought he was fine, but then I came to the forum and he sounded very popular with many rooting for him, it just bugged me. I might have been wrong in my interpretation of people's response.

As for Tyrion, I thought his interactions with people is honest and generally useful. Even if he hurts people's feelings, he gives good counsel. At least that is my take, I might be very wrong and just praise Tyrion because I like Tyrion and not because his character is actually that good.

 

Also I never felt like Jaime was whining, but just making snarky remarks about his life. Jaime and Cersai had an abusive relationship and him burning her letter signified his ending of the relationship. As for the Tyrion rape thing, you can put all the blame on Jaime. He was following his father's orders afterall. If anything killing the king was the beginning of his redemption as he decided he wasn't going to watch while athoritarian figures did awful things to people.

But he doesn't only make snarky comments, he is living them.

[Nerevanin]

Hard to say. He is one of my favorite characters but it's tough to say why. I really like how his personality changes gradually during the story. I think that the main thing about Jaime that I like is that his current attitude is one of the most true hero like in the series and it also seems like he sees the truth in many things while some other characters see only what they want to see or their opinions are influenced in a bad way (sorry, I'm really terrible at explaning things) and they live in illusions.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

Dp

[A spoon of knife and fork]

I think you are very right in your opinion that my problems with the response to the character comes from the fact that I am looking at the character and not the story. I am coming to the same conclusion myself.

Actually, I have no problem with Jaime becoming a hero, I don't have a problem with the character at all, only the response to him. I understand that he is redeeming himself and when I read the story I thought he was fine, but then I came to the forum and he sounded very popular with many rooting for him, it just bugged me. I might have been wrong in my interpretation of people's response.

As for Tyrion, I thought his interactions with people is honest and generally useful. Even if he hurts people's feelings, he gives good counsel. At least that is my take, I might be very wrong and just praise Tyrion because I like Tyrion and not because his character is actually that good.

But he doesn't only make snarky comments, he is living them.

there are some things about Tyrions personality that really bothered me - particularly the  misogyny and dismissiveness towards pretty much everyone who isn't himself, Jaime or Tywin.  And He often shows a striking lack of imagination re: the thoughts and feelings of others considering he's supposed to be so clever (this was especially true with Sansa and Shae). 

But it has never really occurred to me to wonder WHY people love Tyrion.  It seems quite obvious.  You have a character that yearns to be loved, above all, but who is cynical and insecure and above all self-defeating in his pursuit of love.  A deeply flawed character who yearns to be a good person but who has been 1) been abused/neglected most of his life and 2) has learned morality and politics from one of the most evil men in his world. As a result we have a deeply conflicted and grey character, a talented outsider, a reluctant hero, perhaps one day.

Several people in this thread have been quite poetic in their thoughts on what made them love Jaime - I'm not sure why it's so difficult to understand.  

[shizett]

there are some things about Tyrions personality that really bothered me - particularly the  misogyny and dismissiveness towards pretty much everyone who isn't himself, Jaime or Tywin.  And He often shows a striking lack of imagination re: the thoughts and feelings of others considering he's supposed to be so clever (this was especially true with Sansa and Shae). 

But it has never really occurred to me to wonder WHY people love Tyrion.  It seems quite obvious.  You have a character that yearns to be loved, above all, but who is cynical and insecure and above all self-defeating in his pursuit of love.  A deeply flawed character who yearns to be a good person but who has been 1) been abused/neglected most of his life and 2) has learned morality and politics from one of the most evil men in his world. As a result we have a deeply conflicted and grey character, a talented outsider, a reluctant hero, perhaps one day.

I like Tyrion because he is a very gray character and also because I can see multiple layers of years and years of his life in them. It makes him an interesting read but also an interesting character.

Several people in this thread have been quite poetic in their thoughts on what made them love Jaime - I'm not sure why it's so difficult to understand.  

I do agree some people are very poetic, or I would say quite romantic, about Jaime, but most of what they say is why they empathize with Jaime. I empathize with him too, I just don't feel the affection and I think there is a difference. Sometimes, I just don't agree with what they say they see and declare as a fact, obviously because it is not a fact for me.

Also, I reply to people's response mostly because I enjoy the discussion. And maybe you find it easier to understand because you never started with this question and already had your answer. Maybe it seems I am being argumentative or am trying to prove something. I really am not. Jaime as a character that I don't agree upon with some just gives me a good subject for discussion. I have understood things about the situation or the character from the discussion, so I am understanding some things.

[shizett]

I think most people view him as a hero because of his redemptive storyline. Its always more fun to see a villain become a hero than a hero remaining a hero, as opposed to Daenerys who has always stayed good and will likely remain that way. Reading about a character overcoming their own flaws and changes for the better as a result is far more interesting and a sign of a true hero in my opinion, instead of someone just improving on their own personality.

It's kinda the reverse of a greek tragedy, as it is more sad to watch a good person rise up to only to fall from grace for some bad decisions making (I'm looking at you Robb). It would not be as impactful if the story was about a peasant.

Theon is also becoming a hero I think.

Many people are (rightly) saying that they enjoy the experience of reading Jaime, and not necessary the character. Some both. It seems like I was wrong about my interpretation of people's response to the character.

I completely disagree about Deanerys though, she is a villain for me. I do not read her as a hero or a good person at all.

[shizett]

Hard to say. He is one of my favorite characters but it's tough to say why. I really like how his personality changes gradually during the story. I think that the main thing about Jaime that I like is that his current attitude is one of the most true hero like in the series and it also seems like he sees the truth in many things while some other characters see only what they want to see or their opinions are influenced in a bad way (sorry, I'm really terrible at explaning things) and they live in illusions.

I see, interesting. Would you mind giving an example about his perceptiveness? I am not denying your point of view, just cannot think of a situation right now other than his idea about faith militant and Kevan in response to Cersei's actions. Are these what you meant?

[shizett]

I don't like him as a "person" (I mean, if he were a real person, if that makes sense), but I fully believe he's the most complex/layered character of the series and I'm planning to write a paper on his character development and submit to some lit journal when I have time, which is never. 

ita he might be the best written character in the series. Def worth a paper, if you had the time.

Why do you say this? What do you mean by multiple layers? For example, Tyrion is very layered and conflicted. He shows it in his mind but also in all of his interactions. Jaime is a very cynical character who also has an echo of a boy he once was, very very predictable to be honest. The only time he surprised me was when he told his King Aerys story, not before or since. I would be very interested if you would write (a very very short even) about the complexities of him.

[shizett]

Jaime is my second favorite character but I recognize completely that he has been a total prick for the majority of his life, and that part should be despised, utterly.

the way I see it, like many he started off naive and with dreams of doing great deeds, finding romance and heroism.  He joined the KG in pursuit of these dreams and immediately was faced with the facts of the situation.  Because he was KG to Aerys (and later Robert) there would be no glory or heroism.  Instead he must guard a sadistic rapist / torturer, even against his own family.  His one hope (like many) seemed to be in Rhaegar but then he died too.  So, given the opportunity he kills Aerys, and relishes in it, in fact.  Finally he has the opportunity to slay the monster - that's what knights are supposed to do.  Then he is judged for it (he acts impulsively so he doesn't bother to consider that the situation looks to an outsider like he did it on his father's orders when really he did it for KL and for himself).  

Later, his sister marries Robert and Jaime is forced to make his life even more of a lie.  Now he guards the king while fucking his sister and secretly fathering her children...  This is clearly dishonorable and against everything he once stood for but by this point he's utterly nihilistic.  He thinks, well honor is crap anyway, right and wrong don't exist, so I'll just do what I want.  So he does things like try to murder bran on impulse, and kill all of Neds men for little reason other than because it was easy to do.  He even upgrades Cerseis wish for Aryas maiming to killing her outright, because why not?  Nothing matters anyway.

yet, something in Jaime lingers... the young Jaime that knew what Aerys did was wrong.  That knows what older Jaime is doing is just as wrong. Perhaps even more wrong, since Jaime knows better...  Aerys may have been mad, but Jaime wasn't.  He was just nihilistic and impulsive. 

But he keeps this part of himself buried, because he thinks living honorably isn't possible in this world. Sure, Ned stark is an example, but Jaime hates Ned (and likewise Ned always hated Jaime) and besides, look where honor got Ned - he lost his head!  He meets Catelyn, though, and I think he begins there to have a grudging respect for her way of thinking.  The part of him that can feel compassion feels for her loss, and while he firmly has his mask of cynicism in place, he ultimately tries to do right by his vow to her.  

Ultimately what alters his views is an encounter with someone very like his young self. Someone who when faced with many examples that supposedly honorable people could be total shitheads still refused to let that taint their knightly ideals.  Someone that passed the tests Jaime failed.  Someone who saw him for what he had become - not as a great swordsman or Tywin Lannisters son, but simply as a fallen knight.  In her pure unalloyed sincerety and vulnerability Jaime saw himself both as as a boy and as he was now and he didn't like what he saw.  He was moved, in a way he hadn't been by Ned Stark, to prove the boy Jaime still existed.  When he was injured and Brienne cared for him, he allowed his mask to slip and the boy came out - a boy that still yearned for honor and glory.  And she recognized that boy, Jaime, the Kingslayer, yes, but Jaime too.  And she loved that boy, in a way Cersei never did.  She loved him for his ideals, complicated as they had become.  And Jaime is then moved to save her, and help her as he is able. 

Jaime now, realizes that boy inside him is worth much more than who he has become.  He pushed away the good parts of himself for all these years, and for what?  He had no great deeds, no heroic acts in the white book.  He barely even has a family.  His beloved brother now hates him, because of his lie about Tysha.  His children don't know him.  Cersei he now sees doesn't care about his dreams (nor did he care about hers for that matter - he often shut her up with sex when she annoyed him).  He loved an ideal of her, one that never existed.  Ultimately he has realized, his life after killing Aerys has been entirely unfulfilling.  

So, he decides maybe it's not too late.  Maybe he can be Goldenhand the Just.  Maybe he can follow Briennes example, and try to act with mercy, compassion, and honor.  He also has the life experience Brienne lacks - in that he knows sometimes a lie is more honorable than the truth if it protects the innocent.  

All that is to say, I think Jaime has gone through a really intriguing change in his thinking and self image and I think could one day be a hero.  It takes great courage to try to change ones self so completely.  To break an unhealthy cycle, and to try for more than a quick thrill amid a grey nothingness.  It's similar to breaking out of a cycle of crime, or drug abuse. To try to be a good person, is a difficult choice and I think Jaime has made that choice.  

I am sorry I had completely missed your first post (along with many). I liked your telling of Jaime's story and I agree with all you say.

Specifically about the last paragraph: he went through an interesting story, he is not necessarily interesting (not for me). the static nature of Jaime's character bothers me. Also, I agree, he has made the choice and not the change. It doesn't only take courage to change, it takes discipline too and we'll see what happens later. The world is full of people who want to be a better person but never bother to do so. Of course I also hope he finishes the path he has begun. I would like to see him become a hero, not act heroic.

 

[Good Guy Garlan]

 

Why do you say this? What do you mean by multiple layers? For example, Tyrion is very layered and conflicted. He shows it in his mind but also in all of his interactions. Jaime is a very cynical character who also has an echo of a boy he once was, very very predictable to be honest. The only time he surprised me was when he told his King Aerys story, not before or since. I would be very interested if you would write (a very very short even) about the complexities of him.

Well, even the Aerys story has layers, for example. Jaime didn't just kill him to protect the city, he killed him because he hated his guts after he could hear him Rhaella every night. There's of course the thing about Jaime wishing he'd grow up to the Sword of the Morning but turning into the Smiling Knight instead. 

But the thing that interests me the most is how he tries to juggle being Tywin's son (heavily attached to the "Kingslayer" reputation) and doing the "right" thing at the same time (aka being "Goldenhand the Just). Feast is all about that, from the moment Cersei tells him, "You sounded just like Father for a moment", and then Genna telling him the opposite, so he goes all Tywin on poor Edmure, even if he thinks he's genuinely helping the Tullys. And he thinks, "I'll be the Kingslayer till the day I die", as Blackfish helpfully reminds him. At its core, is a story about how hard it is to turn a new leaf, or be a blank page (like Jaime thought he'd do with the White Book), because the rest of the world won't let you change, not really. But then again, his so-called "redemption" didn't come from a place of true remorse, at least not yet, as he's still punishing lords based on the authority of a king he knows to be false, and he's constantly patting himself on the back for not being overly cruel, like Tywin. So it's all a big identity mess for him.

And on top of that, there's the whole Cersei thing, how he starts to realize what a poisonous influence she was on him, and how they start to drift apart, ending the book with the "put it on the fire" line, signalling his finally breaking away from her. 

[A spoon of knife and fork]

I am sorry I had completely missed your first post (along with many). I liked your telling of Jaime's story and I agree with all you say.

Specifically about the last paragraph: he went through an interesting story, he is not necessarily interesting (not for me). the static nature of Jaime's character bothers me. Also, I agree, he has made the choice and not the change. It doesn't only take courage to change, it takes discipline too and we'll see what happens later. The world is full of people who want to be a better person but never bother to do so. Of course I also hope he finishes the path he has begun. I would like to see him become a hero, not act heroic.

 

glad you enjoyed - but I'm curious why you see Jaimes character as particularly static.  I see him as very dynamic.

for example if we compare Tyrion across all the books i don't think he has changed all that much.  He has done some deplorable things, and I think he is quite depressed in ADWD but to me he seems much the same person.  He still is fairly cynical and dismissive of others, he still has impulses to help the weak, yet he still sees the practical value of the lessons he learned from Tywin.  

Likewise, someone like Jon Snow - has he really changed, deep down?  I don't think so - even after he comes back from the dead, I suspect he will have the same goals, beliefs, and values as he has always had. 

I guess what I'm wondering is how do you define a character as static/dynamic and in that context How is Jaime less dynamic than Tyrion or Jon (just for example)? Jaime I think quite clearly has very different goals, values, and even basic thought processes when we see him by ADWD compared to when we saw him at the start of ASOS where he is all carefree arrogance?

eta: I don't think there's a difference between being a hero and acting the part.  Heros are those who choose to do heroic and selfless things. 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

 There is an old biblical saying (that I will butcher no doubt because of spending more time in Westeros than church...) It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man to pass the gates of Heaven.

You got it right, but it was later discovered it was a mistranslation: it wasn't camel but the actual word meant rope. (because, seriously... a camel??)

Jamie's grown up privileged and beautiful.  He didn't have to try for love, his girl was built in.   He was a talented swordsman (and presumably horseman).   He was knighted at 15 and immediately scooped up by the king for the Kingsguard.   15, for crying out loud.   This kid had everything going for him and all his heart desired.  He was his father's pride, his sister's great love and his brother's idol.   I'm not sure I would have understood the ramifications of every vow I took at 15 or 25 even.  I think that at what? 17 or 18 Jamie began to get comfortable with his group of peers, who were not peers at all but much older men and really wanted to emulate them.   He wanted to go to war and was kept essentially hostage.   That would have really pissed me off at such a young age.   He's elevated to this elite group and prevented from proving himself.   I think that when Jamie killed Aerys he simply snapped and quit caring about everything except preventing a madman from mass murder and protecting his father.   All the lies he told himself andvows he took bt didn't really understand to get by in KL blew up in his face as he watched his king's descent into madness.  Jamie being a child himself, reacted in a rash and impulsive manner in a dangerous and very volatile situation.   I stated previously that surely there was an alternative to pushing Bran and ask you now, what was Jamie's real alternative to killing Aerys?     

You have some good points here, but I think we need to look at Jaime beyond him being "privileged" because that's an easy way out to analyse  him as a character: "oh, he's a man and rich, so, he shouldn't have had problems". That's a very appalling way of thinking (I'm not saying you do think this in general, btw) because is the basis for people thinking men can't be victims of abuse (physical or sexual), which is plain wrong.

Jaime, as well as Stannis, Victarion and Sam (and few others), had the misfortune to be sensible men in a world that requires men to be tough and almost deprived from feelings and sensitivities. We see Sam suffer it the most, but he's not the only one. Stannis has shown to be a very sensitive kid from the beginning (his memories of Proudwing talk a lot about him as a child), but he was overshadowed by a more extrovert brother and mocked for being himself an introvert. Victarion, otoh, is able to notice how many things are wrong about his culture, but he can't openly denounce them because they he would be perceived as weak.

While Tyrion is the character that presents himself as someone who has a softness for "cripples, bastards and broken things", we eventually discover him doing this is nothing but a facade and a way for him to project how he would like others to treat him. During his whole trip through the Riverlands we find out is JAIME the one who actually cares for cripples, bastards and broken things and his "kingslayer" persona was the outside image. Any other man like Jaime would not really care for the smallfolk more than as an abstract concept such as "oh, I should protect my people, whoever they are!". But Jaime seems to indeed see them as human beings deserving of protection and compassion. Compare how Jaime sees Pia (as a person) and what Tyrion thinks of prostitutes in general: the difference is even bigger in Feast/Dance, when they both are at their low.

So, I guess your use of the "camel" phrase is actually fitting: Jaime had no obligation to be this good person but he is because he wants to be that, while, otoh, Tyrion needs to be this caring smart person to prove something to the world.

So the idea of this rich beautiful kid just sitting on a dead man's throne waiting for the new king (not himself, not his father) to claim it speaks volumes about Jamie's character.   

I think this is a remain of Martin's original outline in which Jaime was indeed a bad person who killed anyone on his way and made himself the King.  See below.

Well, even the Aerys story has layers, for example. Jaime didn't just kill him to protect the city, he killed him because he hated his guts after he could hear him Rhaella every night. There's of course the thing about Jaime wishing he'd grow up to the Sword of the Morning but turning into the Smiling Knight instead.

I think that naming Jaime a KG is, as he himself kinda admitted, what finally broke him. That was what turned him into a cynical man who, like the Hound, saw Knighthood as something it wasn't.

The difference between Jaime and Sandor, in this case, is that at least Jaime had Arthur as a reference of the thing he could aspire to be and what he shouldn't be. Of course, saying the KG doing (or not doing) things they shouldn't, fucked up his mind. Aerys ended up symbolising everything that was wrong and he lost it.

But an important thing many forget (and only Jaime has mentioned, and I'm sure there is a reason why) is that he was wearing his golden armour when he killed Aerys. I guess this is Jaime's inner self protecting himself from not soiling what he believes is to be a KG and a knight. That's why Jaime goes "inside": he retreats as a way to protect the real Jaime, which is why the real Jaime now is trying to kick its way out of him.