Stannis definitely dead says Martin

[Guest]

And if you do not wish to read the books, try the Radio Westeros podcast - those folks KNOW GOT.

[titanx5]

Well I kinda expected it, I always had that 0.5% small hope that he would be alive. Still angry about the whole thing, but have to reluctantly move on. And treat the books and the show as 2 separate entities, and what it looks like there will be going further apart, so doesnt surprise me that some characters that are dead in the show will still have a much larger plot to the story in the books

I remember Carice saying that her acr for season 6 is amazing or what she heard. Actors usually are saying that, but it's logical. On one hand she might've misinterpretated characters in her vision like she did with Stannis and Jon. Events are real but people are different. Sansa is the option here and we know that she will be there and George said that Sansa and Arya have some unfinish business. Although, books and show are going different routes. 

On the other hand if  she dies in the premier and Jon is resurrected. It would feel kinda rushed. She needs to figured it out that Jon is the one she was been looking for and do something about it.

I'd say ep. 3 or 4. L7R suggested that it will be ep.5, but don't know about that. If it is ep. 3 or 4 it would give Jon a good amount of time to deal with what has happened, plans what do do next and it kinda give Mel time to figured it out and it would feel natural and not rushed.

However in regards to Mel, she wont die in the 1st episode, as remember she said she sees herself walking along the battlements of WF, so I think she just misinterpreted the vision of Stannis winning the battle, however feel Davos will have some unfinished business with her.

[Hippocras]

Well I kinda expected it, I always had that 0.5% small hope that he would be alive. Still angry about the whole thing, but have to reluctantly move on. And treat the books and the show as 2 separate entities, and what it looks like there will be going further apart, so doesnt surprise me that some characters that are dead in the show will still have a much larger plot to the story in the books

However in regards to Mel, she wont die in the 1st episode, as remember she said she sees herself walking along the battlements of WF, so I think she just misinterpreted the vision of Stannis winning the battle, however feel Davos will have some unfinished business with her.

I see no reason to be disappointed on this. If Stannis dies earlier in the show than in the books, very likely that is because the way he DOES eventually die in the books has to do with characters and/or events that have been cut.

Let's say for example that he is defeated at Winterfell or there is a stalemate but he survives to fight another day. He has no support in the North, because the North wants only a Stark. He can't make the North his base.

Maybe in the books he then gets himself an army of sellswords (after all, he did only just get his loan from the IB) and decides to use them to confront Aegon in the South. This would make some sense if Aegon has taken Storm's End, which he seems to have done. Without the North as a base he will after all need either Storm's End or Dragonstone. So he confronts Aegon and loses, because Aegon was able to get Westerosi support while Stannis was not. Obviously this scenario is possible in the books but not in the show.

[JonSnowed]

Aegon alongside Stoneheart are the two glaring omissions from the show which make me wonder where those arcs are going.  Still not sure why GRRM would have Stannis lose at Winterfell then go south to Aegon and lose that too - does it really add to the narrative and who would be the POV?  I'm now more or less certain Stannis dies in the north or at worst becomes Lord Commander of the Nights Watch.

[Hippocras]

Aegon alongside Stoneheart are the two glaring omissions from the show which make me wonder where those arcs are going.  Still not sure why GRRM would have Stannis lose at Winterfell then go south to Aegon and lose that too - does it really add to the narrative and who would be the POV?  I'm now more or less certain Stannis dies in the north or at worst becomes Lord Commander of the Nights Watch.

I don't think Stoneheart was cut. I think we will see her in season 6.

Aegon in the books is about the Blackfyre feud, which is interesting but requires too much back story to work on TV IMO.

[Marcus Agrippa]

Aegon alongside Stoneheart are the two glaring omissions from the show which make me wonder where those arcs are going.  Still not sure why GRRM would have Stannis lose at Winterfell then go south to Aegon and lose that too - does it really add to the narrative and who would be the POV?  I'm now more or less certain Stannis dies in the north or at worst becomes Lord Commander of the Nights Watch.

Stannis probably won't die in winterfell, Every scenario in the book shows a stag v/dragon throw down. Considering the Lannisters dropped the Stag on pretext of whatever, we are looking at Daenerys vs Stannis. Question is who is going to win. We know Daenerys is going to beat Aegon, and we know that Jon is def going to be in Ghost for a while in the books. Looking at the possibility of Daenerys dieing at the wall.

[The Drunkard]

Aegon alongside Stoneheart are the two glaring omissions from the show which make me wonder where those arcs are going.  Still not sure why GRRM would have Stannis lose at Winterfell then go south to Aegon and lose that too - does it really add to the narrative and who would be the POV?  I'm now more or less certain Stannis dies in the north or at worst becomes Lord Commander of the Nights Watch.

It wouldn't, obviously, it's just a way to get him out of the North so that Jon, Rickon or whoever your favourite Stark candidate is can beat the bad guys and save the day all on their lonesome. 

About him being confirmed dead, I never understood why people thought he wasn't, why they'd want to think that he wasn't, or what role he would have if he lived. His ultimate book ending is I imagine telegraphed by that crown of fire vision - he sees himself being completely destroyed by his path, but will soldier on whatever the cost because it's his duty. The show, in it's own bad, stupid way, did that with season 5. Anything beyond that would be pure show, and we all know what that looks like.

In the books I expect he'll beat the Freys and the Boltons and take Winterfell, unite the North, install Rickon as a figurehead and fight the Others using his northern support and mercenaries from the Iron Bank. At the Nightfort he'll burn Shireen in desperation, fail (or win in a Devil's Bargain sort of way), and eventually be offed by Dany as a false Azor Ahai when she finally arrives and heads north, as per the HOTU prophecy.

[Winter's Cold]

In the books I expect he'll beat the Freys and the Boltons and take Winterfell, unite the North, install Rickon as a figurehead and fight the Others using his northern support and mercenaries from the Iron Bank. At the Nightfort he'll burn Shireen in desperation, fail (or win in a Devil's Bargain sort of way), and eventually be offed by Dany as a false Azor Ahai when she finally arrives and heads north, as per the HOTU prophecy.

In the books, he'll probably lose at Winterfell, flee to the Wall, sacrifice Shireen and die fighting against the Others. Either way, book or show, Stannis will not rule the North.

[Marcus Agrippa]

In the books, he'll probably lose at Winterfell, flee to the Wall, sacrifice Shireen and die fighting against the Others. Either way, book or show, Stannis will not rule the North.

Where's your evidence? I am genuinely curious on where your set of beliefs comes from. Where there is a dream sequence of a man fighting with a flaming sword on top of the wall with Ice armor, it would be  a HELL of a walk for Stannis to get back there. Everything Martin has dropped in the books show the Boltons has mid tier villians, and it has daenerys fighting against someone with the usurpers banners with men in ice armor. Could Stannis lose? Sure, but it's more likely Dabid and Dan are just giving Jon Stannis's story.

[Winter's Cold]

Where's your evidence? I am genuinely curious on where your set of beliefs comes from. Where there is a dream sequence of a man fighting with a flaming sword on top of the wall with Ice armor, it would be  a HELL of a walk for Stannis to get back there. Everything Martin has dropped in the books show the Boltons has mid tier villians, and it has daenerys fighting against someone with the usurpers banners with men in ice armor. Could Stannis lose? Sure, but it's more likely Dabid and Dan are just giving Jon Stannis's story.

That's your interpretation of the story. My interpretation is that Stannis fails at Winterfell like he did at Blackwater. He then retereats to the Wall and falls fighting the others. It's far more likely that Stannis will lose the battle in the books like he did the show. In the books, if resurrected, Jon will march on Winterfell and confront the Boltons as well. 

[Stag_legion]

That's your interpretation of the story. My interpretation is that Stannis fails at Winterfell like he did at Blackwater. He then retereats to the Wall and falls fighting the others. It's far more likely that Stannis will lose the battle in the books like he did the show. In the books, if resurrected, Jon will march on Winterfell and confront the Boltons as well. 

If stannis loses the battle for winterfell the northern houses who oppose the boltons are done for as well. Plus it doesn't really make sense for GRRM to have so much build up to the battle for it to end in a simple bolton victory. Why would GRRM have stannis discover Karstark treachery if he wanted stannis to lose? It would have made for a better twist for the Karstark backstab to work if stannis was to lose.

I think its pretty much a given that stannis will win at winterfell, what happens after though is anyone's guess.

[Stannis is the man....nis]

That's your interpretation of the story. My interpretation is that Stannis fails at Winterfell like he did at Blackwater. He then retereats to the Wall and falls fighting the others. It's far more likely that Stannis will lose the battle in the books like he did the show. In the books, if resurrected, Jon will march on Winterfell and confront the Boltons as well. 

Stannis told his men it's Winterfell or die trying so if he loses he is not going back. It's either he beats the Boltens or he never harms Shireen 

[Stag_legion]

Stannis told his men it's Winterfell or die trying so if he loses he is not going back. It's either he beats the Boltens or he never harms Shireen 

 

yeah this. plus Stannis doesn't have the supplies to make it to the wall ( winter is even worse marching north). Either his army wins at winterfell or they die of hunger and cold.

[Hippocras]

yeah this. plus Stannis doesn't have the supplies to make it to the wall ( winter is even worse marching north). Either his army wins at winterfell or they die of hunger and cold.

I think GRRM's imagination is probably broader than that, and he will come up with something very few of us would have thought of.

It does seem to me that Stannis probably will not win at Winterfell. I am also pretty sure that the burning of Shireen is not pure show invention. So how, given the distance between Stannis and his daughter?

One possibility is that the pink letter was either from Stannis (captured ravens) or influenced in some way by Stannis (false info sent to Winterfell) enough to contain a sort of coded message to Mel. If Mel thinks he is in trouble, she will burn Shireen to save him, and the pink letter contained the signal to go ahead with this desperate measure. In other words, in the books Stannis is not present for the burning of Shireen, but he does, via the pink letter, give his consent.

Another possibility is that the Boltons desert Winterfell. So maybe Stannis defeats the Freys, sustaining heavy losses, only to find the Boltons have taken up a stronger position elsewhere. Stannis would then be defeated slightly later.

[Stag_legion]

I think GRRM's imagination is probably broader than that, and he will come up with something very few of us would have thought of.

It does seem to me that Stannis probably will not win at Winterfell. I am also pretty sure that the burning of Shireen is not pure show invention. So how, given the distance between Stannis and his daughter?

One possibility is that the pink letter was either from Stannis (captured ravens) or influenced in some way by Stannis (false info sent to Winterfell) enough to contain a sort of coded message to Mel. If Mel thinks he is in trouble, she will burn Shireen to save him, and the pink letter contained the signal to go ahead with this desperate measure. In other words, in the books Stannis is not present for the burning of Shireen, but he does, via the pink letter, give his consent.

Another possibility is that the Boltons desert Winterfell. So maybe Stannis defeats the Freys, sustaining heavy losses, only to find the Boltons have taken up a stronger position elsewhere. Stannis would then be defeated slightly later.

OMG, How the in the world does the pink letter signal stannis' consent for burning shireen? this after he explicitly tells Massey to fight on for shireen even if he dies.

You are just trying to connect the show and the books in someway, but you don't provide anything that would make that connection. Its much more likely that stannis won't be consenting for shireen's burning in the books, just as the show has already twisted things in previously published books in a way to paint stannis in a more negative light, the same is very likely true when it comes to shireen's death.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

If stannis loses the battle for winterfell the northern houses who oppose the boltons are done for as well. Plus it doesn't really make sense for GRRM to have so much build up to the battle for it to end in a simple bolton victory. Why would GRRM have stannis discover Karstark treachery if he wanted stannis to lose? It would have made for a better twist for the Karstark backstab to work if stannis was to lose.

I think its pretty much a given that stannis will win at winterfell, what happens after though is anyone's guess.

I don't think it's a given at all that he will win. Yes the Bolton camp is fighting each other and there's treachery all over the place , but stannis' camp is hardly unified, and is starving and freezing to death at the same time. 

Plus even if Stannis wins the initial encounters, it seems highly unlikely that he could ever manage to lay siege to winterfell and take it under those circumstances. 

Nope, I'm almost certain Stannis is going to die in the next book, I'm mostly certain he won't take Wintefell and I'm verging on convinced he won't win the battle that's coming up.

im not even sure where all this evidence that Stannis is bound to win is coming from or that there is some sort of set up between him and Dany. If it's the house of the undying prophesy then the 'blue eyed king who casts no shadow' could easily be whatever form Jon snow takes when he comes back to life. There's probably stuff I've not spotted but if it's based on that one line then I'm highly doubtful of it.

plus basing assumptions of Stannis winning on 'it not being that great of a story for Stannis' doesn't make sense either. He's still not even a POV character in the book and is only ever appearing in the background of other characters stories, there should be no assumption that he's going to taking a major role in the upcoming story. 

 

Having said that, not sure there's anything in the Pink Letter theory being suggested, seems a stab in the dark to me! :)

[Hippocras]

OMG, How the in the world does the pink letter signal stannis' consent for burning shireen? this after he explicitly tells Massey to fight on for shireen even if he dies.

You are just trying to connect the show and the books in someway, but you don't provide anything that would make that connection. Its much more likely that stannis won't be consenting for shireen's burning in the books, just as the show has already twisted things in previously published books in a way to paint stannis in a more negative light, the same is very likely true when it comes to shireen's death.

whoa. relax. First of all noone can prove anything until the book comes out so it is pretty pointless talking about "proof" of anything.

Second, the possibility that Stannis had some influence over the pink letter is a valid flushed out theory that is out there on pink letter threads if you care to look. There are real reasons to believe something is off about that letter, and it might not be what it seems to be. To put it simply: Stannis captured the Karstarks, with them some ravens he has the means, motive etc. to send a message.

The fact is, we know that Shireen's burning is not a show invention, even if it has not yet happened. This was confirmed for us. Just because we have trouble figuring out how it will happen in the books does not mean it will not. It has been set up, so get your head out of the sand.

[Valhalla Morghulis]

I don't think Stoneheart was cut. I think we will see her in season 6.

Aegon in the books is about the Blackfyre feud, which is interesting but requires too much back story to work on TV IMO.

Not sure we will see LSH. I re-read the books recently and she is actually barely in them, she only has a couple of memorable scenes and is not really needed to advance any central plot, so unlikely now I think. 

[Stag_legion]

whoa. relax. First of all noone can prove anything until the book comes out so it is pretty pointless talking about "proof" of anything.

Second, the possibility that Stannis had some influence over the pink letter is a valid flushed out theory that is out there on pink letter threads if you care to look. There are real reasons to believe something is off about that letter, and it might not be what it seems to be. To put it simply: Stannis captured the Karstarks, with them some ravens he has the means, motive etc. to send a message.

The fact is, we know that Shireen's burning is not a show invention, even if it has not yet happened. This was confirmed for us. Just because we have trouble figuring out how it will happen in the books does not mean it will not. It has been set up, so get your head out of the sand.

My problem isn't with the suggestion that stannis wrote the pink letter, I see that as a possibility though not very likely. My problem was with the out there idea that the pink letter had some coded message for melisandre to burn shireen. This is directly contradicted in text when stannis tells massey to fight on for shireen until the bloody end. So either stannis is an insane flip flopper who is bent on destroyingthe future of his family or stannis is not involved in shireen getting burned.

 

D&D only confirmed that shireen would burn, not that Stannis would consent to it. Everything in the books suggest that stannis wouldn't allow that ever! Melisandre cares about prophecy and battling the great other over stannis' bloodline. It would make sense for her to sacrifice shireen in a dire situation, but not stannis. Stannis cares more about the survival of his dynasty than melisandre's prophecies, hence why he suggests to massey that he might die in battle in spite of melisandre's grad prophecies about him being the savior. 

[The Drunkard]

If stannis loses the battle for winterfell the northern houses who oppose the boltons are done for as well. Plus it doesn't really make sense for GRRM to have so much build up to the battle for it to end in a simple bolton victory. Why would GRRM have stannis discover Karstark treachery if he wanted stannis to lose? It would have made for a better twist for the Karstark backstab to work if stannis was to lose.

Stannis told his men it's Winterfell or die trying so if he loses he is not going back. It's either he beats the Boltens or he never harms Shireen 

yeah this. plus Stannis doesn't have the supplies to make it to the wall ( winter is even worse marching north). Either his army wins at winterfell or they die of hunger and cold.

All of this is true, the bolded especially. Not just to his men, he essentially told Massey that he's never retreating from battle again, and the situation with his army is such that he couldn't even if he wanted to. Not to mention that if he was to lose, the anti-Bolton North is done. Manderly can't defeat Bolton on his own (or else he would have), the other lords won't turn against a victorious Bolton if they won't even turn against an endangered one, the 4000+ that joined Stannis will be dead and scattered, and the land can't shit out several thousand more soldiers on cue (unlike the show, probably).

To put it simply: Stannis captured the Karstarks, with them some ravens he has the means, motive etc. to send a message.

His ravens don't fly to the Wall, they fly to Winterfell. Roose had been using messages from those ravens to keep informed about Stannis and his whereabouts - the first was the one that revealed he was waiting at the crofters village - and Stannis can now deceive him using the remaining two. What he (or anyone else for that matter) can't do is send a message to Winterfell posing as the Karstarks and cause Roose/Ramsay/whoever to send their own letter to Winterfell that just happens to contain the necessarily very specific code that would signal to Melisandre it's time to burn Shireen.