Stannis definitely dead says Martin

[A Ghost of Someone]

FWIW I was not speaking about you ...But yes iam blind dany fan ...but do tell me what she should have done  when Hewas threating to take tge baby out of her ...its not like She has not tried to stop him from doing stupid things the moment he entered the place. ...my problem is those who come up with all sorts of explanations for stannis justified in his killing of renly can't see how dany couldn't have done anything ..

when one says stannis is a kinslayer the immediate response is what about dany ....you can find that in the other thread ...its annoying ...  

I like those as yourself and drunkard and many others who understands stannsis better and appreciates him for what he is than creating their own fantasy version.

 

 

 

 

 

Not that everyone could have come up with a split second better solution but she could have asked drogo to send Viserys with bloodriders back to Pentos and deliver him to Illyrio. She also wasted no time after Viserys death in thinking she could have the crown or give it to her "Drogo".

[7-KG]

 

I like those as yourself and drunkard and many others who understands stannis better and appreciates him for what he is than creating their own fantasy version.

And what's the fantasy version they make of him, GRRM?

[Drogonthedread]

 

Not that everyone could have come up with a split second better solution but she could have asked drogo to send Viserys with bloodriders back to Pentos and deliver him to Illyrio. She also wasted no time after Viserys death in thinking she could have the crown or give it to her "Drogo".

and viserys would have listened to that because ....he has ignored everyone's advice from illyrio jorah and dany. ...she tried stopping him by sending jorah ...once he bared the steel even khal drogo can't do anything. . since other khaks would have demanded his death ..  

and what i wrong with that ...as she says " viserys promised her thousand times that he would take her back one day ,but he was dead now and his promises had died with him " so she needs to take steps herself since she doesnt have anyone ...

And what's the fantasy version they make of him, GRRM?

take for example  what drunkard said even though the show did a terrible job with the way stannis story ended but acknowledges its close enough for what he will be getting in the books and that there is no point In having him alive in show and not goes into speculating how he will join with brienne or end up as LC which doesn't go with what we know of stannis at all

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Hippocras]

I personally suspected that Stannis dies in the battle for Winterfell and Mel tries to resurrect him by burning Shireen.  I think even if this was GRRM's original intention it probably isn't now and I wouldn't even be too shocked if Shireen survives the series.

GRRM has said many times he will not change his plans based on fan comments, or people guessing the ending, or anything else. He has said that he has carefully set up the key things that need to happen and to change the plan would be a waste of the setup, and a disservice to fans who want to read a carefully constructed story.

So no, he will not be changing anything that is actually part of his broad outline. Only the details are fluid.

[Hippocras]

Well, then Stannis might not die in the Battle of Winterfell like in the show...as many of us suggested. Return to Castle Black and sacrifice Shireen or something to that. Well, it always seemed to me that Mel will be doing it in the books to bring back Stannis. Like Ser Gareth said. We'll see.

It is a difficult thing to figure out IMO. I had personally always thought Stannis had some future entanglement with the rebels of the Iron Islands, and that he might actually eventually win the throne only to be deeply unpopular and quickly murdered by Brienne. I now think I was wrong.

The easiest way to see it is that in the books Stannis returns to the Wall, I agree. But how? He loses at Winterfell but survives, and with no food supplies he makes it all the way back North? Given how difficult that is, it is at least worth considering the possibility that the Shireen burning had his prior consent if it was clear the situation was desperate, and that the pink letter signalled that the situation had reached that point.

[Ser Gareth]

GRRM has said many times he will not change his plans based on fan comments, or people guessing the ending, or anything else. He has said that he has carefully set up the key things that need to happen and to change the plan would be a waste of the setup, and a disservice to fans who want to read a carefully constructed story.

So no, he will not be changing anything that is actually part of his broad outline. Only the details are fluid.

And you believe him?  Because I don't.  His "gardening" approach is his get out clause.  His original synopsis of the book is different to what the plot now is.  His "5 year gap" discarded.  The next book split into two, but don't worry because they'll only be a year apart.  He has changed his mind multiple times already and I have no doubt he'll change it again.

And for long term (18 years) book readers like myself he has already done a disservice too by allowing the TV show to finish well before the books.  His great plot integral mysteries will all be revealed by the TV show.  So it is my belief that he'll over complicate and already overly complicated story to "add" new benefits for the book readers.  To keep the books "fresh" (in his mind anyway) and exciting.  I don't think GRRM is deluded and therefore I don't think GRRM truly believes half the stuff he states publically.

[Hippocras]

And you believe him?  Because I don't.  His "gardening" approach is his get out clause.  His original synopsis of the book is different to what the plot now is.  His "5 year gap" discarded.  The next book split into two, but don't worry because they'll only be a year apart.  He has changed his mind multiple times already and I have no doubt he'll change it again.

And for long term (18 years) book readers like myself he has already done a disservice too by allowing the TV show to finish well before the books.  His great plot integral mysteries will all be revealed by the TV show.  So it is my belief that he'll over complicate and already overly complicated story to "add" new benefits for the book readers.  To keep the books "fresh" (in his mind anyway) and exciting.  I don't think GRRM is deluded and therefore I don't think GRRM truly believes half the stuff he states publically.

Yes, I believe him.

Because when I read these books I do not read a random sequence of events invented on the fly for shock, I read an amazingly complex weave of events for which the seeds are planted always hundreds of pages before. When the seeds are already planted, the course does not change just for the hell of it.

[7-KG]

 

Take for example  what drunkard said even though the show did a terrible job with the way stannis story ended but acknowledges its close enough for what he will be getting in the books and that there is no point In having him alive in show and not goes into speculating how he will join with brienne or end up as LC which doesn't go with what we know of stannis at all.

That? Well, i'm very sorry, i thought you meant something else...

[Ser Gareth]

Yes, I believe him.

Because when I read these books I do not read a random sequence of events invented on the fly for shock, I read an amazingly complex weave of events for which the seeds are planted always hundreds of pages before. When the seeds are already planted, the course does not change just for the hell of it.

I never said he'd change it just for the hell of it.  I believe him to be very pissed off that the show has stolen his thunder and he will do his best to get it back.  One thing GRRM seems to have is a huge ego, that has only gotten bigger since he found global fame.

He has already publically stated (conveniently at the same time as a reveal in the show) that he had thought of something he was toying with adding but that the show couldn't do it because an involved character was already dead.  And has someone else pointed out earlier in the thread the manner in which he stated this was very concerning.  It was almost like a sulking child delighted to have one up on a rival.

And if GRRM did decide to go back and rewrite a lot of the novel and steer it into another direction he can just claim that was always the direction it was going in.

The fact he dismissed the 5 year gap after he actually started writing ADWD (and had to dispose of most of what he wrote apparently) goes to show that when he wrote those first three books he clearly has wiped a lot of the slate clean.

Characters who have died in recent books may well have made it past the 5 years in the "original" plot.  Or characters were going to be killed off and have instead survived.  Were we just going to hear about Quentyn from stories in flashbacks for example, or was his arc changed (added) to suit the new narrative?  All of this side stories have been added in my opinion.  So if he has done it once why not do it again with Stannis, especially now the show has killed him off and GRRM was publically peeved about them letting the cat out of the bag on Shireen.  Maybe GRRM's new twist that he is toying with is actually having Shireen end up Queen at the end of the series.....

[Hippocras]

I never said he'd change it just for the hell of it.  I believe him to be very pissed off that the show has stolen his thunder and he will do his best to get it back.  One thing GRRM seems to have is a huge ego, that has only gotten bigger since he found global fame.

He has already publically stated (conveniently at the same time as a reveal in the show) that he had thought of something he was toying with adding but that the show couldn't do it because an involved character was already dead.  And has someone else pointed out earlier in the thread the manner in which he stated this was very concerning.  It was almost like a sulking child delighted to have one up on a rival.

And if GRRM did decide to go back and rewrite a lot of the novel and steer it into another direction he can just claim that was always the direction it was going in.

The fact he dismissed the 5 year gap after he actually started writing ADWD (and had to dispose of most of what he wrote apparently) goes to show that when he wrote those first three books he clearly has wiped a lot of the slate clean.

Characters who have died in recent books may well have made it past the 5 years in the "original" plot.  Or characters were going to be killed off and have instead survived.  Were we just going to hear about Quentyn from stories in flashbacks for example, or was his arc changed (added) to suit the new narrative?  All of this side stories have been added in my opinion.  So if he has done it once why not do it again with Stannis, especially now the show has killed him off and GRRM was publically peeved about them letting the cat out of the bag on Shireen.  Maybe GRRM's new twist that he is toying with is actually having Shireen end up Queen at the end of the series.....

well you are wrong.

His own words on the matter are that:

1. He has only himself to blame for the pace of his writing (which, regardless of fan impatience, is not actually all that slow). 

2. He is completely ok with the fact that the show and books are different media and need to tell the story differently. In fact the differences are such that we won't actually know while watching which events are spoilers and which are not. He even emphasizes these differences as interesting and necessary, and the changes will be what makes it a fresh story when we eventually do get to read his version.

3. He is involved with the show and decisions on where the story goes. Yes, there are sometimes changes that force him to let go of things he would have liked to see, and there is a butterfly effect from some changes, but 

[Lord Friendzone]

well you are wrong.

His own words on the matter are that:

1. He has only himself to blame for the pace of his writing (which, regardless of fan impatience, is not actually all that slow). 

2. He is completely ok with the fact that the show and books are different media and need to tell the story differently. In fact the differences are such that we won't actually know while watching which events are spoilers and which are not. He even emphasizes these differences as interesting and necessary, and the changes will be what makes it a fresh story when we eventually do get to read his version.

3. He is involved with the show and decisions on where the story goes. Yes, there are sometimes changes that force him to let go of things he would have liked to see, and there is a butterfly effect from some changes, but 

Yes. Not everything works in both medias. He even go on to say that show will affect his writing.

[Drogonthedread]

Yes. Not everything works in both medias. He even go on to say that show will affect his writing.

whether the effect will be positive or negative  we can't say certain ....I believe in George when he says those things....but one can't help but afraid when he ponders how he thought of new twist which show can't do or say some of the backlashes show gets may force him to change what he first intended ... But let's hope and lpray that's not the case because then iam afraid it will lead to more delay for books ...

  

 

 

 

[Cas Stark]

Yes, I believe him.

Because when I read these books I do not read a random sequence of events invented on the fly for shock, I read an amazingly complex weave of events for which the seeds are planted always hundreds of pages before. When the seeds are already planted, the course does not change just for the hell of it.

Doran Martell's plan seems an obvious retcon to me.  The master plotter, whose grand scheme for revenge was to sit on his ass for 15 or 20 years until his daughter and Viscerys grew up?  And he put nothing in place in Essos that would help Visercys?  Ever?  At all?

No.  That is a very, very bad and stupid plan.  

I happen to agree w/the other poster that GRRM is going to make changes in the story to make it differ from the show.

 

**Martin also said he considered changing who Jon's mother was when so many fans figured it out.  So he most assuredly is willing to change the story so his readers will keep being "surprised".

[Dolorous Gabe]

Doran Martell's plan seems an obvious retcon to me.  The master plotter, whose grand scheme for revenge was to sit on his ass for 15 or 20 years until his daughter and Viscerys grew up?  And he put nothing in place in Essos that would help Visercys?  Ever?  At all?

No.  That is a very, very bad and stupid plan.  

I happen to agree w/the other poster that GRRM is going to make changes in the story to make it differ from the show.

 

**Martin also said he considered changing who Jon's mother was when so many fans figured it out.  So he most assuredly is willing to change the story so his readers will keep being "surprised".

I was under the impression that 'consideration' was merely a momentary thought which he dismissed as quickly as it came and he tells it in a story where he basically says there's no way he'll change it because it's central to everything he has already written.

Any changes he makes will be carefully considered and won't have a major impact on the overall story. We already know the show is taking different routes to get to the ending.

I will agree that George probably didn't have Doran's plan fully realised in his mind when he wrote the first book. I think that's a fair but minor criticism.

[Hippocras]

You might have a point about Doran, or you might not.

I personally feel like I don't have enough information yet on what is going on with Dorne to decide one way or the other. My instinct is that there is far more going on with Doran and his plans than we have yet seen. At the very least, there are factors which he has had to contend with which we have not yet seen, but which have constrained his choices. The possibilities are:

1. He doesn't trust Arianne and for good reason. So what he says to her is only part of the story. The betrothal to Viserys was just covering one base.

2. Viserys was the real plan, and Dorne did in fact do a great deal over the years to help Viserys and Dany. We know Oberyn was in Essos during the same time period. Very possibly it was Oberyn and other Dornish agents who were arranging places for Dany and Viserys to stay for all those years, and keeping them alive and safe from assassins. Keep in mind the exhiled Targs were always fed and housed and safe. All they were lacking was an army to invade, and the time was in any case not right for an invasion while the Kingdoms remained united under Robert.

[Cas Stark]

You might have a point about Doran, or you might not.

I personally feel like I don't have enough information yet on what is going on with Dorne to decide one way or the other. My instinct is that there is far more going on with Doran and his plans than we have yet seen. At the very least, there are factors which he has had to contend with which we have not yet seen, but which have constrained his choices. The possibilities are:

1. He doesn't trust Arianne and for good reason. So what he says to her is only part of the story. The betrothal to Viserys was just covering one base.

2. Viserys was the real plan, and Dorne did in fact do a great deal over the years to help Viserys and Dany. We know Oberyn was in Essos during the same time period. Very possibly it was Oberyn and other Dornish agents who were arranging places for Dany and Viserys to stay for all those years, and keeping them alive and safe from assassins. Keep in mind the exhiled Targs were always fed and housed and safe. All they were lacking was an army to invade, and the time was in any case not right for an invasion while the Kingdoms remained united under Robert.

I don't see how 2. is possible, they had to sell all of their belongings including their mother's crown to pay their expenses.  There were no assassins, Robert never sent anyone to kill them until the very end, only to keep tabs on them.

I feel that this idea of 'there is more to Doran's plan" so the big fire and blood reveal we already had isn't such a let down is wishful thinking.  The entire Martell storyline is not worthy of the POV space it was given.  Unless Quentyn is really alive, that was a dead end.  Why then, assume that Doran Martells great plan isn't a similar dead end?

Martin also said he was going to give Osha a bigger role because of Show Osha, he's said he's planning a new 'big twist' with a character the show already killed.  Me, I don't think he ever intended to have Jeyne Westerling as a prologue character either, until he was PO about "Talisa".  So I absolutely believe the show is going to have a negative influence on future books.  

[Hippocras]

I don't see how 2. is possible, they had to sell all of their belongings including their mother's crown to pay their expenses.  There were no assassins, Robert never sent anyone to kill them until the very end, only to keep tabs on them.

I feel that this idea of 'there is more to Doran's plan" so the big fire and blood reveal we already had isn't such a let down is wishful thinking.  The entire Martell storyline is not worthy of the POV space it was given.  Unless Quentyn is really alive, that was a dead end.  Why then, assume that Doran Martells great plan isn't a similar dead end?

Martin also said he was going to give Osha a bigger role because of Show Osha, he's said he's planning a new 'big twist' with a character the show already killed.  Me, I don't think he ever intended to have Jeyne Westerling as a prologue character either, until he was PO about "Talisa".  So I absolutely believe the show is going to have a negative influence on future books.  

Keep in mind they were in Essos in the territory of the Iron Bank which, at that point in time was backing Robert. Overtly funding the Targaryen exhiles would have been Doran asking to have his head chopped off. The sell-off was also AFTER Darry's death. House Darry, we saw in the first book, were secret Targ loyalists. They seem to have been allied with Dorne. We also saw that Dorne had a Tyroshi alliance with the guy who showed up at Dany's wedding. 

So the network seems to have been extensive, but very secretive. Openly financing a rebellion years before it was ready to happen would have been extreemely foolhardy.

[Cas Stark]

Keep in mind they were in Essos in the territory of the Iron Bank which, at that point in time was backing Robert. Overtly funding the Targaryen exhiles would have been Doran asking to have his head chopped off. The sell-off was also AFTER Darry's death. House Darry, we saw in the first book, were secret Targ loyalists. They seem to have been allied with Dorne. We also saw that Dorne had a Tyroshi alliance with the guy who showed up at Dany's wedding. 

So the network seems to have been extensive, but very secretive. Openly financing a rebellion years before it was ready to happen would have been extreemely foolhardy.

We're not talking about financing a rebelliion.  We're talking about finding one person in Essos who would look after them and a way to funnel some amount of money to them so, maybe, like, Viserys doesn't go nutso.  Doran's wife was from Essos.  Dorne has more ties to Essos.  Oberyn was in Essos.  But, I'm supposed to believe the master plotter couldn't come up with a way to funnel some money to the two Targs?  No.  I don't buy it.  It's bad plotting by the author.  He's not immune to it even if most of what he does is well set up and has some kind of plot logic.

[Ser Gareth]

whether the effect will be positive or negative  we can't say certain ....I believe in George when he says those things....but one can't help but afraid when he ponders how he thought of new twist which show can't do or say some of the backlashes show gets may force him to change what he first intended ... But let's hope and lpray that's not the case because then iam afraid it will lead to more delay for books ...

  

 

 

 

I think that is already a major cause of it.  I think he is  already embarking on a major rewrite of TWOW and I don't think we'll see it this year.  As I said elsewhere I wouldn't be at all shocked if the book isn't released until after the TV series has concluded.

I am sure GRRM may well be telling the truth when he says (writes) things, but he is clearly fickle so what he says (writes) should always be taken with a large pinch of salt.

[Ser Gareth]

well you are wrong.

His own words on the matter are that:

1. He has only himself to blame for the pace of his writing (which, regardless of fan impatience, is not actually all that slow). 

2. He is completely ok with the fact that the show and books are different media and need to tell the story differently. In fact the differences are such that we won't actually know while watching which events are spoilers and which are not. He even emphasizes these differences as interesting and necessary, and the changes will be what makes it a fresh story when we eventually do get to read his version.

3. He is involved with the show and decisions on where the story goes. Yes, there are sometimes changes that force him to let go of things he would have liked to see, and there is a butterfly effect from some changes, but 

Know him personally do you?  To be so certain you must do.  Either that or you have blind faith.