Is there something that you really don't want to see happen in the series?

[SeanF]

8 hours ago, A Song of Ass and Fire said:

Crucified 160+ people.

Tortured a man's children in front of him.

We aren't talking about killing an innocent in a moment of anger or stress, or wrongfully executing a guy you hated because he contributef to the death of your father, or cutting down a child on the orders of your king, or pushing a kid out a window because they saw too much.

Mass crucifixions.

Torturing children.

Some things cannot be excused. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, especially if those intentions lead to you torturing people to death.

If Dany routinely tortured children, or crucified people, and did it either for fun, or in order to rule by terror, one could fairly say that she is an evil person. 

But, the first is done under the stress of having had someone close to her raped and murdered, and several of her soldiers murdered, by terrorists, while the second is done in retaliation for children being crucified and disembowelled.

That doesn't alter the fact that the first was cruel and spiteful, and an order she should never have given.  The second, in all likelihood, did punish people who were guilty of monstrous crimes, but probably also caught people who weren't guilty.  She should have tried to establish guilt and innocence.

[Woman of War]

San/San riding into the sunset and into happily ever after.

the Others being aliens

Shireen and Myrcella dying a cruel death ............ oooops......

Tyrion dying or at least not without getting some true happiness before

or Tyrion living without at least some love and recognition

Missandei being a kind of monster

No more characters dead on hold, no dead protagonists queueing  for wake up

Martin suggesting that anyone has a "rightful" claim to the throne.

 

[The Fresh PtwP]

Just...please don't let Tyrion get a dragon. 

I don't want Jon for king

I don't want Dorne, Braavos, the Reach, the Maesters, Euron and everything else about Feast to be filler...Better be more than hype.

I don't want Tommen to die.

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

I think being cruel and spiteful, and indiscriminate in issuing horrible collective punishments are traits that fit the definition of evil.  Saying that these things are not evil when Daenerys did it is a double standard.  When Robbs army was given the order to put captives to the sword, people saw it as clear proof that the orders can't from Roose and not Robb, because Robb, flawed as he was, was not evil enough to put every captured soldier to death, even though collective punishment is not seen as immoral in his society, even though these were people who were actively fighting him, not just members of an economic class whose rulers were guilty of evil things.

We see inside her mind and we know she thinks it is justified, but repeatedly Dany has shown her ability to justify her mistakes to herself.  Every megalomaniacal dictator has felt justified in their actions, read Mein Kampf sometime, it is full of heart felt justifications for evil.  Well written fiction can make one feel sympathetic to monsters, and GRRM is capable of this.  And it is not a bad thing to try and understand the forces that drive humans to evil or allow one to feel empathy for evil doers.  When I watched "Downfall", there was Part of me that actually felt sorry for Hitler because he was presented as a human being, one who had some terrible beliefs and made egregiously evil mistakes, but also one who lived and felt fear and loss.  It is important not to dehumanize evil so we are not blind to it when it appears in a sympathetic guise.  We can recognize our own impulse to do evil things as what it is and refuse to do it... After 9/11, my rage and grief have me evil thoughts, that those behind the attach should be made to see their lives ones die, that we should enact collective punishment on every person who cheered when the towers cane down.  It was natural, but there are lots of natural impulses that we should not follow.

[SeanF]

32 minutes ago, A Song of Ass and Fire said:

I think being cruel and spiteful, and indiscriminate in issuing horrible collective punishments are traits that fit the definition of evil.  Saying that these things are not evil when Daenerys did it is a double standard.  When Robbs army was given the order to put captives to the sword, people saw it as clear proof that the orders can't from Roose and not Robb, because Robb, flawed as he was, was not evil enough to put every captured soldier to death, even though collective punishment is not seen as immoral in his society, even though these were people who were actively fighting him, not just members of an economic class whose rulers were guilty of evil things.

We see inside her mind and we know she thinks it is justified, but repeatedly Dany has shown her ability to justify her mistakes to herself.  Every megalomaniacal dictator has felt justified in their actions, read Mein Kampf sometime, it is full of heart felt justifications for evil.  Well written fiction can make one feel sympathetic to monsters, and GRRM is capable of this.  And it is not a bad thing to try and understand the forces that drive humans to evil or allow one to feel empathy for evil doers.  When I watched "Downfall", there was Part of me that actually felt sorry for Hitler because he was presented as a human being, one who had some terrible beliefs and made egregiously evil mistakes, but also one who lived and felt fear and loss.  It is important not to dehumanize evil so we are not blind to it when it appears in a sympathetic guise.  We can recognize our own impulse to do evil things as what it is and refuse to do it... After 9/11, my rage and grief have me evil thoughts, that those behind the attach should be made to see their lives ones die, that we should enact collective punishment on every person who cheered when the towers cane down.  It was natural, but there are lots of natural impulses that we should not follow.

No.  I'm denying that Daenerys is evil.  That's not the same as saying she's never done bad things (plainly, she has).

But, by your measure, almost every protagonist is evil.  Stannis has burned men alive, and allows women to be tortured at Dragonstone.  Robb burned and plundered the Westerlands.  Tyrion knowingly served as Hand for a boy whose claim to the Iron Throne he knew to be fraudulent, and in the process had men tortured, or killed on the Blackwater.  Jaime threw a child out of a window, and slew Ned Stark's guards.  Sansa committed perjury against Marillion to save her own life.  Catelyn murdered a lackwit.  Arya has carried out dubious killings etc.  There's no one with clean hands in this story.

But, it's not (in my view) a story just about evil people trying to score off each other.  One has to weigh up the good deeds that each protagonist commits, as well as looking into the motivations behind their bad deeds.

I think that what makes Dany so contentious (and the same is true of Tyrion) is that initially, they are enormously sympathetic characters.  It's only gradually that the darker side of both characters comes to the fore.

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

41 minutes ago, SeanF said:

No.  I'm denying that Daenerys is evil.  That's not the same as saying she's never done bad things (plainly, she has).

But, by your measure, almost every protagonist is evil.  Stannis has burned men alive, and allows women to be tortured at Dragonstone.  Robb burned and plundered the Westerlands.  Tyrion knowingly served as Hand for a boy whose claim to the Iron Throne he knew to be fraudulent, and in the process had men tortured, or killed on the Blackwater.  Jaime threw a child out of a window, and slew Ned Stark's guards.  Sansa committed perjury against Marillion to save her own life.  Catelyn murdered a lackwit.  Arya has carried out dubious killings etc.  There's no one with clean hands in this story.

But, it's not (in my view) a story just about evil people trying to score off each other.  One has to weigh up the good deeds that each protagonist commits, as well as looking into the motivations behind their bad deeds.

I think that what makes Dany so contentious (and the same is true of Tyrion) is that initially, they are enormously sympathetic characters.  It's only gradually that the darker side of both characters comes to the fore.

Stannis is very evil, Tyrion as well, though less so (his having a singer murdered so he could keep Shae in town is one of his worst sins, in my opinion).  Jaime is in a gray area because his worst crime, throwing Bran from the window, was done to save his own life and that of his children.  Sansa is a child who was under pressure from an extremely manipulative (and evil) man.  Catelyn was suffering temporary insanity and had never murdered anyone before to our knowledge.  Arya would be evil in my mind if she was older, but at her age she is not fully responsible for her actions.

If murder for selfish reasons and torture of innocents is not evil, nothing is.

Answer this - do you think Hitler was evil?  How about his followers who enacted his agenda but were only following his orders?  If Hitler is evil, why is Daenerys not?

[ChillyPolly]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

No.  I'm denying that Daenerys is evil.  That's not the same as saying she's never done bad things (plainly, she has).

But, by your measure, almost every protagonist is evil. 

Nothing wrong with that.  

An evil person is a person who does evil things.  "Yeah, but by that standard everyone is evil".  So what?  Everyone IS evil.  As Ser Bonifer says, "All men are sinners".  Calling a person "evil" need not be an absolute statement of absolute evil, nor a complete denial of any glimmer of humanity or moral sense.  It can be a matter of degree, whose significance will vary depending upon context.

And yeah, the things that Dany does are indeed pretty evil.  There is no reason we cannot acknowledge this.  And no, such an acknowledgment does not rule out the possibility of a change of course or a chance of redemption.  It merely acknowledges that, yeah, she really ought to mend her ways, at the very least.

[RobOsevens]

57 minutes ago, A Song of Ass and Fire said:

Answer this - do you think Hitler was evil?  How about his followers who enacted his agenda but were only following his orders?  If Hitler is evil, why is Daenerys not?

You can't be serious, comparing Dany to Hitler? Of course she has made mistakes and done bad things, everyone in this story has. 

She's a 15 year old girl trying to return home, yes the road to hell is paved with good intentions, but really what would you have her do? We are watching Dany learn to rule and she is making mistakes and bad decisions, if she doesn't learn from them and continues to do these things or enjoy them then she can be considered evil (but still no Hitler, c'mon man, smh) Besides we all see her indecision about all of the difficult choices she makes.

She is attempting to do what Jon was told and kill the girl so the woman can live. To be a successful ruler in GRRM's world means you need to be ruthless and make decisions that real people in a modern world would hopefully never make.  In order for Dany to be a great ruler or reclaim the 7K successfully she is going to have to be someone who makes decisions that kill and hurt others even innocents. 

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men." 

For Dany to be a great leader and potentially save the day she may have to become "bad" as in having to make choices that hurt innocents in order to defeat her enemies but she will not be evil and especially not hitler

[LyrnaSnowBunnyAvenger]

Jon being anywhere but the Wall when it ends up

Jon marrying either his aunt or his sister-cousins

The IT still existing. 

Dany ending up anything but batshit out of her mind crazy & being burned

Rickon not having a unicorn army

Jaime not killing Cersei

Jayne Poole not ending up somewhere happy

**I'm very likely to be extremely disappointed. 

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

22 minutes ago, RobOsevens said:

You can't be serious, comparing Dany to Hitler? Of course she has made mistakes and done bad things, everyone in this story has. 

She's a 15 year old girl trying to return home, yes the road to hell is paved with good intentions, but really what would you have her do? We are watching Dany learn to rule and she is making mistakes and bad decisions, if she doesn't learn from them and continues to do these things or enjoy them then she can be considered evil (but still no Hitler, c'mon man, smh) Besides we all see her indecision about all of the difficult choices she makes.

She is attempting to do what Jon was told and kill the girl so the woman can live. To be a successful ruler in GRRM's world means you need to be ruthless and make decisions that real people in a modern world would hopefully never make.  In order for Dany to be a great ruler or reclaim the 7K successfully she is going to have to be someone who makes decisions that kill and hurt others even innocents. 

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men." 

For Dany to be a great leader and potentially save the day she may have to become "bad" as in having to make choices that hurt innocents in order to defeat her enemies but she will not be evil and especially not hitler

Hitler was trying to reclaim lost glory for his people, who arguably WERE treated very poorly by other nations in the Treaty of Versailles.  In a modern context, a lot of his actions seem pretty abominable, but in the first half of the 20th century, a very large portion of Christendom did believe that Jews were evil or subhuman, and that is part of why he encountered very little resistance at first.  In his mind, he was trying to help good people and destroy evil people who had harmed his people out of greed and immorality.  His writings indicate that this was not a lie to him that he made up to justify his actions, he did truly believe he was doing God's work.  There were many Americans and British and others who were opposed to Hitler for political reasons who yet did approve of what he was doing with the Jews.

There are no indications that he was unnecessarily sadistic - he performed no crucifixions, there were sadists working for him but Adolf did not officially endorse medical experimentation on the Jews, he simply ordered their extermination.  He was a sensitive person, largely vegetarian and a lover of animals.  He had a very troubled upbringing that made him develop prejudices that colored his actions later in life, but there's no reason to believe that Hitler would have ever harmed anyone had he been a successful painter instead of a world leader.  He followed the rules of war far better than many of his enemies, and he is the reason why poison gas was very rarely used in warfare during WWII, as he had experienced it in WWI and did not feel that even his enemies deserved it and felt that if he authorized it's use, it would be used against his own people.

Hitler was one of the most evil people in modern history, and yet he had many good traits that balanced his evil.  He is innocent of many horrific things that Daenerys is guilty of.  I have a feeling that if Hitler had POV chapters and his story was told from when he was a sensitive young man, we'd have people on these forums arguing that he was not really evil, he just did evil things.

[SeanF]

No. I'm denying that Daenerys is evil. That's not the same as saying she's never done bad things (plainly, she has).

But, by your measure, almost every protagonist is evil. Stannis has burned men alive, and allows women to be tortured at Dragonstone. Robb burned and plundered the Westerlands. Tyrion knowingly served as Hand for a boy whose claim to the Iron Throne he knew to be fraudulent, and in the process had men tortured, or killed on the Blackwater. Jaime threw a child out of a window, and slew Ned Stark's guards. Sansa committed perjury against Marillion to save her own life. Catelyn murdered a lackwit. Arya has carried out dubious killings etc. There's no one with clean hands in this story.

But, it's not (in my view) a story just about evil people trying to score off each other. One has to weigh up the good deeds that each protagonist commits, as well as looking into the motivations behind their bad deeds.

I think that what makes Dany so contentious (and the same is true of Tyrion) is that initially, they are enormously sympathetic characters. It's only gradually that the darker side of both characters comes to the fore.

Stannis is very evil, Tyrion as well, though less so (his having a singer murdered so he could keep Shae in town is one of his worst sins, in my opinion). Jaime is in a gray area because his worst crime, throwing Bran from the window, was done to save his own life and that of his children. Sansa is a child who was under pressure from an extremely manipulative (and evil) man. Catelyn was suffering temporary insanity and had never murdered anyone before to our knowledge. Arya would be evil in my mind if she was older, but at her age she is not fully responsible for her actions.

If murder for selfish reasons and torture of innocents is not evil, nothing is.

Answer this - do you think Hitler was evil? How about his followers who enacted his agenda but were only following his orders? If Hitler is evil, why is Daenerys not?

Daenerys hasn't set about subjugating or exterminating people she deems subhuman. She's not a racist fanatic. She has no desire, that I know of, to kill off the mentally ill, or homosexuals. She doesn't believe lunatic conspiracy theories. She's religiously tolerant. She lets people criticise her to her face. So, comparing her to Hitler is far-fetched.

She does, however, have a cruel streak.

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

 

Daenerys hasn't set about subjugating or exterminating people she deems subhuman. She's not a racist fanatic. She has no desire, that I know of, to kill off the mentally ill, or homosexuals. She doesn't believe lunatic conspiracy theories. She's religiously tolerant. She lets people criticise her to her face. So, comparing her to Hitler is far-fetched.

She does, however, have a cruel streak.

She ordered the mass crucifixion of people for no other reason than being part of the ruling class, and slave owners.  In a modern context, we recognize that slavery is very wrong, but until relatively recently in history it was widely considered to be perfectly moral, and in the culture where she is punishing slavers, it is a backbone of their culture.  Now, if we are going to justify horrific medieval practices like torture and collective punishment, why are we so slow to justify other practices that were considered normal right into our 19th century?

Let's say General Grant, after seeing some slaves who were tortured to death, gathered a few thousand Southern slave owners and told them to give him 163 of their number to be tortured to death, and then he crucified them all, most of which were probably not even responsible for maltreatment of slaves (do you really think the rich and powerful would be the ones given to him if they were allowed to choose for themselves).  Would that not be an incredibly evil act?

[A spoon of knife and fork]

1 hour ago, A Song of Ass and Fire said:

Stannis is very evil, Tyrion as well, though less so (his having a singer murdered so he could keep Shae in town is one of his worst sins, in my opinion).  Jaime is in a gray area because his worst crime, throwing Bran from the window, was done to save his own life and that of his children.  Sansa is a child who was under pressure from an extremely manipulative (and evil) man.  Catelyn was suffering temporary insanity and had never murdered anyone before to our knowledge.  Arya would be evil in my mind if she was older, but at her age she is not fully responsible for her actions.

If murder for selfish reasons and torture of innocents is not evil, nothing is.

Answer this - do you think Hitler was evil?  How about his followers who enacted his agenda but were only following his orders?  If Hitler is evil, why is Daenerys not?

I think ordering the murder of Neds unarmed companions in the street may possibly be less evil that trying to kill Bran If motivations are not considered (since Bran is a child), but it is certainly less justified when we consider the intent. It's about a billion times less justified than Danys' crucifixions of the slaving Elite, since Neds men had literally nothing to do with Tyrions capture and it can be reasonably assumed that a large portion of the slavers were indeed involved in the child torture/murder

And that all said, I don't think Jaime is "evil" either.  He's done some evil things.  Same with Dany. 

Also since you went there, no, I don't really believe people like Hitler are being truthful about their intentions, or are in any way comparable to someone like Dany.  Mein Kampf primarily is a political document - its purpose is to convince people.  If he says his real purpose is just to enrich/glorify himself at the expense of the weakest members of society he's not going to get much support.  If on the other hand he says that everything he does is for the glory of Germany and her chosen people, well that's going to resonate with some people. Closest person to Hitler is probably Tywin Lannister.  Though, TBH Tywin was a lot less personally popular. 

[RobOsevens]

7 minutes ago, A Song of Ass and Fire said:

Hitler was trying to reclaim lost glory for his people, who arguably WERE treated very poorly by other nations in the Treaty of Versailles.  In a modern context, a lot of his actions seem pretty abominable, but in the first half of the 20th century, a very large portion of Christendom did believe that Jews were evil or subhuman, and that is part of why he encountered very little resistance at first.  In his mind, he was trying to help good people and destroy evil people who had harmed his people out of greed and immorality.  His writings indicate that this was not a lie to him that he made up to justify his actions, he did truly believe he was doing God's work.  There were many Americans and British and others who were opposed to Hitler for political reasons who yet did approve of what he was doing with the Jews.

There are no indications that he was unnecessarily sadistic - he performed no crucifixions, there were sadists working for him but Adolf did not officially endorse medical experimentation on the Jews, he simply ordered their extermination.  He was a sensitive person, largely vegetarian and a lover of animals.  He had a very troubled upbringing that made him develop prejudices that colored his actions later in life, but there's no reason to believe that Hitler would have ever harmed anyone had he been a successful painter instead of a world leader.  He followed the rules of war far better than many of his enemies, and he is the reason why poison gas was very rarely used in warfare during WWII, as he had experienced it in WWI and did not feel that even his enemies deserved it and felt that if he authorized it's use, it would be used against his own people.

Hitler was one of the most evil people in modern history, and yet he had many good traits that balanced his evil.  He is innocent of many horrific things that Daenerys is guilty of.  I have a feeling that if Hitler had POV chapters and his story was told from when he was a sensitive young man, we'd have people on these forums arguing that he was not really evil, he just did evil things.

I can't even you gotta be trolling right? Are you even reading what you are saying? You're a Hitler apologist. HITLER!

Fuck man, I could write a response to each of your points but wtf is the point you are a lost cause

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

Just now, RobOsevens said:

I can't even you gotta be trolling right? Are you even reading what you are saying? You're a Hitler apologist. HITLER!

Fuck man, I could write a response to each of your points but wtf is the point you are a lost cause

How about you just respond to the last paragraph?  Or did you not read that far?

I am not a Hitler apologist by any means, but he's a good example of how very evil people often have good traits and feel completely justified to themselves.

[RobOsevens]

12 minutes ago, A Song of Ass and Fire said:

Hitler was one of the most evil people in modern history, and yet he had many good traits that balanced his evil.  He is innocent of many horrific things that Daenerys is guilty of.  I have a feeling that if Hitler had POV chapters and his story was told from when he was a sensitive young man, we'd have people on these forums arguing that he was not really evil, he just did evil things.

Yeah Hitler had a lot of great traits that balanced his evil - balance means: " a condition in which different elements are equal or in the correct proportions " so no nothing Hitler did in the good column balanced his evil. Do I need to explain why not?

Yeah Hitler didn't crucify people but how can you say he wasn't unnecessarily cruel?? - Work and death camps ffs man

Hitler's POVs - yeah we would all feel real bad for him and he woudl definetly be justified in his beliefs and actions ie. genocide.

BTW, we have his POV it is called Mein Kampf here's a quote from it:  "the nationalization of our masses will succeed only when, aside from all the positive struggle for the soul of our people, their international poisoners are exterminated" Geez, nothing like exterminating people to make me empathize with the guy

 

 

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

5 minutes ago, RobOsevens said:

Yeah Hitler had a lot of great traits that balanced his evil - balance means: " a condition in which different elements are equal or in the correct proportions " so no nothing Hitler did in the good column balanced his evil. Do I need to explain why not?

Yeah Hitler didn't crucify people but how can you say he wasn't unnecessarily cruel?? - Work and death camps ffs man

Hitler's POVs - yeah we would all feel real bad for him and he woudl definetly be justified in his beliefs and actions ie. genocide.

BTW, we have his POV it is called Mein Kampf here's a quote from it:  "the nationalization of our masses will succeed only when, aside from all the positive struggle for the soul of our people, their international poisoners are exterminated" Geez, nothing like exterminating people to make me empathize with the guy

 

 

"International poisoners" - in his beliefs, the people he was exterminating were guilty of poisoning his society.  He was wrong, but then, Daenerys is wrong in believing that she has a divine right to rule other people based on her birthright.

Whether it balances is based on how much weight you put on his evil and how much weight you put on his good.  If you don't apply much weight to Daenerys' tortures and mass executions, but give a lot of weight to her good intentions and desire to help the slaves, then it's balanced.  If one treats Hitler as Daenerys is treated, and play down his evil acts and give justifications for them, and play up how kind he was to animals and sensitive to the needs of his own people, it's balanced.
 

I don't think so, myself.  I think Hitler's evil far outweighs his good.  I feel the same way about Daenerys.

[SeanF]

Daenerys hasn't set about subjugating or exterminating people she deems subhuman. She's not a racist fanatic. She has no desire, that I know of, to kill off the mentally ill, or homosexuals. She doesn't believe lunatic conspiracy theories. She's religiously tolerant. She lets people criticise her to her face. So, comparing her to Hitler is far-fetched.

She does, however, have a cruel streak.

She ordered the mass crucifixion of people for no other reason than being part of the ruling class, and slave owners. In a modern context, we recognize that slavery is very wrong, but until relatively recently in history it was widely considered to be perfectly moral, and in the culture where she is punishing slavers, it is a backbone of their culture. Now, if we are going to justify horrific medieval practices like torture and collective punishment, why are we so slow to justify other practices that were considered normal right into our 19th century?

Let's say General Grant, after seeing some slaves who were tortured to death, gathered a few thousand Southern slave owners and told them to give him 163 of their number to be tortured to death, and then he crucified them all, most of which were probably not even responsible for maltreatment of slaves (do you really think the rich and powerful would be the ones given to him if they were allowed to choose for themselves). Would that not be an incredibly evil act?

If Southern slave owners had crucified and disembowelled 163 black children, and Grant had crucified 163 of them in retaliation, without establishing certain guilt in each case, I'd be very critical of him, but I wouldn't then conclude that Grant was an evil man. People can see red, when confronted with an appalling atrocity.

Bear in mind too that most Great Masters got off lightly. Under Dany, they kept their wealth, lands, and political power. Some of them are members of her Court, and she eventually marries one of them to achieve peace.

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

17 minutes ago, SeanF said:

 

She ordered the mass crucifixion of people for no other reason than being part of the ruling class, and slave owners. In a modern context, we recognize that slavery is very wrong, but until relatively recently in history it was widely considered to be perfectly moral, and in the culture where she is punishing slavers, it is a backbone of their culture. Now, if we are going to justify horrific medieval practices like torture and collective punishment, why are we so slow to justify other practices that were considered normal right into our 19th century?

Let's say General Grant, after seeing some slaves who were tortured to death, gathered a few thousand Southern slave owners and told them to give him 163 of their number to be tortured to death, and then he crucified them all, most of which were probably not even responsible for maltreatment of slaves (do you really think the rich and powerful would be the ones given to him if they were allowed to choose for themselves). Would that not be an incredibly evil act?

If Southern slave owners had crucified and disembowelled 163 black children, and Grant had crucified 163 of them in retaliation, without establishing certain guilt in each case, I'd be very critical of him, but I wouldn't then conclude that Grant was an evil man. People can see red, when confronted with an appalling atrocity.

Bear in mind too that most Great Masters got off lightly. Under Dany, they kept their wealth, lands, and political power. Some of them are members of her Court, and she eventually marries one of them to achieve peace.

Which makes it even more evil and unjust that some of them, and probably the least popular and least powerful of them since they were "volunteered" by the others, got such a cruel punishment.

It's like going to a prison and asking the prisoners to give 163 prisoners over to be crucified, and the rest will be let go.  Who believes that the prisoners are going to give the most powerful and evil among their number?  The most powerful and evil will just use it as an opportunity to remove the ones they like least - the snitches, the ex-cops, etc.  I'm sure in the case of the Great Masters, a large percentage of those who were given to be crucified were the ones who spoke out against the powerful ones who decided to start crucifying slave children.  It was an incredibly stupid move with incredibly terrible consequences.

Evil doesn't have to be intelligent.  It's often stupid.  If a person in power tortures innocent people out of a combination of bad judgment and cruelty instead of just cruelty, it's still evil.

 

[TeamWhiteWalkerz]

2 hours ago, A Song of Ass and Fire said:

Answer this - do you think Hitler was evil?  How about his followers who enacted his agenda but were only following his orders?  If Hitler is evil, why is Daenerys not?

Come on now... I hate Dany, but she's definately not comaprable to Hitler.