Best explanations of Varys and Littlefinger? Motives, activities etc.

[RumHam]

On 1/31/2016 at 9:13 PM, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Varys is blood of the dragon for sure, otherwise there was no reason to give us the line "Only the blood of the dragon shall ever know the secrets of the Red Keep"  

So by that logic Blood and Cheese were also secret Targaryens? Littlefinger also knows about the secret exit which he takes Eddard out through and Sansa and Dontos later use to escape the castle. 

On 2/5/2016 at 7:50 AM, Lord Varys said:

There is indeed no good explanation how the Jaqen guy ended up in the black cells. If he ended up there against his own will then I really only think Varys could have put him there

We're not given an explanation of how he got there, but I don't think one is really required. It's not that out of place. Faceless Men are not perfect, and anyone can be caught (or killed.) It depends on a lot more than that person's competence or skill level. Even if one rejects the possibility that a Faceless Man could botch a job and get caught, it'd still be possible that he was arrested for another less calculated murder. Maybe even one he was innocent of. Maybe someone attacked him in the street and he killed them in self defense only to be surrounded by goldcloaks. We don't know, but there are countless possibilities. Many of which seem far more likely than any of the "he wanted to be in the Black Cells" theories. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

16 minutes ago, RumHam said:

So by that logic Blood and Cheese were also secret Targaryens? Littlefinger also knows about the secret exit which he takes Eddard out through and Sansa and Dontos later use to escape the castle. 

I think it is obvious that Varys knows much more about the secrets of the Red Keep than those others. 

[Lord Varys]

41 minutes ago, RumHam said:

We're not given an explanation of how he got there, but I don't think one is really required. It's not that out of place. Faceless Men are not perfect, and anyone can be caught (or killed.) It depends on a lot more than that person's competence or skill level. Even if one rejects the possibility that a Faceless Man could botch a job and get caught, it'd still be possible that he was arrested for another less calculated murder. Maybe even one he was innocent of. Maybe someone attacked him in the street and he killed them in self defense only to be surrounded by goldcloaks. We don't know, but there are countless possibilities. Many of which seem far more likely than any of the "he wanted to be in the Black Cells" theories. 

I'm not buying that he wanted to be there, either. But couldn't a man like him escape from down there rather easily using some magics? We know the Faceless Men learn this stuff (glamors, for instance) in addition to their face-changing magic, so it should not be that difficult for him to get away. I mean, all he really needed to do was to kill one of the turnkeys who brought him food, take his face, leave the dungeons, and then show another, unknown face to the world so that nobody would connect him either to the Jaqen persona or the turnkey he killed.

End of story.

Granted, there are scenarios imaginable in which Jaqen ended up in the dungeons in a way he could not possibly prevent his own arrest. Just as he was later forced to hang out with the Lannisters for the time being. However, I've difficulty imagining that he would easily end up in such dire a situation he was in by being thrown in the black cells.

The City Watch under Janos Slynt would have kept the peace in the city in those days, and it strikes as a very odd idea to assume that a man like Slynt would be able to capture a Faceless Men.

In addition, people only end up in the black cells for rather serious crimes. George gave us sort of a back story for Rorge and Biter (the whole pot shop with the animal fights thing) but that in itself wouldn't have brought them into the black cells. They must have done some pretty vile and dangerous things. We also know that Rorge actually fears Jaqen, so perhaps whatever got themselves into the black cells was an event the three of them were involved. And everything could be sort of connected to Varys due to the pot shop thing Rorge may have run in Flea Bottom. We know that Varys has a lot of influence in that place of the city, at least according to Littlefinger.

[RumHam]

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I think it is obvious that Varys knows much more about the secrets of the Red Keep than those others. 

I was being a little cheeky but I'm not necessarily sure that's true. We are talking about Maegor's tunnels specifically, right? I agree it's obvious Varys would know more about secrets in general in the Red Keep. But presumably he found out about the tunnels out on his own though informants or exploration, I don't think his hypothetical Blackfyre blood factored into it. The line @aryagonnakill#2 mentioned could still have been meant as a clue, but the fact that Varys isn't the only person to know about or use these tunnels kinda deflates it's potential significance, for me.

The extent of Littlefingers knowledge is unclear, he could just know about that one secret escape path, or he might know the extent of the tunnels. Though I agree he probably doesn't know them as well as Varys. You could also bring up the Little Birds, who hide in the tunnels listening in. They must know them about as well as Varys does. 

58 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm not buying that he wanted to be there, either. But couldn't a man like him escape from down there rather easily using some magics? We know the Faceless Men learn this stuff (glamors, for instance) in addition to their face-changing magic, so it should not be that difficult for him to get away. I mean, all he really needed to do was to kill one of the turnkeys who brought him food, take his face, leave the dungeons, and then show another, unknown face to the world so that nobody would connect him either to the Jaqen persona or the turnkey he killed.

Could he? I think you make it sound a lot easier than it would be. The guy was in irons in the Black Cells, which presumably were unfamilar to him. The Faceless Men surely use magic, the Glamors and their face changing. I dunno that I could come up with another example beyond that. Maybe they have spells that make it harder to be seen or stuff like that, but I don't recall it being mentioned. Nor anything about a lockpicking spell or a spell that would let him see in the darkness of the Black Cells / tell him the way out / allow him to incapacitate however many guards he came across unarmed / etc. Mind you I'm not necessary suggesting the man had resigned himself to death at the hands of Illyn Payne. Maybe he was waiting for his moment, and knew it would come when they were taking him out of the dungeon to be killed. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

End of story.

I'm not sure what you were trying to accomplish with these three words, other than maybe annoy @Lost Melnibonean

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The City Watch under Janos Slynt would have kept the peace in the city in those days, and it strikes as a very odd idea to assume that a man like Slynt would be able to capture a Faceless Men.\

Nobody is suggesting that Slynt single handedly saw through his disguise and arrested him. Or that quality leadership of the city watch would be a prerequisite for a Faceless Man being arrested. As I said before it's not always entirely about competence, shit happens. Not to mention there are a lot of goldcloaks and only one of Jaquen.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

In addition, people only end up in the black cells for rather serious crimes. 

Oh I don't doubt that he was accused of killing someone. There's a reason Yoren keeps him in that cage with the other two.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

George gave us sort of a back story for Rorge and Biter (the whole pot shop with the animal fights thing) but that in itself wouldn't have brought them into the black cells. They must have done some pretty vile and dangerous things. We also know that Rorge actually fears Jaqen, so perhaps whatever got themselves into the black cells was an event the three of them were involved. And everything could be sort of connected to Varys due to the pot shop thing Rorge may have run in Flea Bottom. We know that Varys has a lot of influence in that place of the city, at least according to Littlefinger.

I guess for me it's an occams razor thing. Yes, everything you've suggested is in the realm of possibility. If it's revealed to be true eventually I have no problem with that. But it seems far more likely that he just got arrested and thrown in jail.

[Lord Varys]

21 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I was being a little cheeky but I'm not necessarily sure that's true. We are talking about Maegor's tunnels specifically, right? I agree it's obvious Varys would know more about secrets in general in the Red Keep. But presumably he found out about the tunnels out on his own though informants or exploration, I don't think his hypothetical Blackfyre blood factored into it. The line @aryagonnakill#2 mentioned could still have been meant as a clue, but the fact that Varys isn't the only person to know about or use these tunnels kinda deflates it's potential significance, for me.

Blackfyre or Targaryen blood does not feature one bit into actual knowledge of Maegor's tunnel. Tyanna of the Tower and Larys Strong had no Targaryen blood as far as we know yet they were in charge of the spies and subsequently also had a map or at least knowledge of the tunnels.

The fact that Larys and Varys later on knew about the tunnels (and Daemon and Mysaria had the means to figure stuff out) certainly is testament that the knowledge did not die with Maegor. But presumably Jaehaerys I did not exactly put a lot of effort on uncovering his uncle's black secrets. If he had had no map of the tunnels inherited from Maegor (who failed to burn this stuff in his depression, presumably) then the knowledge of the tunnels (aside from the more easily accessible) should have been (gradually) lost.

The fact that nothing of this sort happened is testament enough that there must have been some maps.

And it is quite clear that not all members of the Targaryen royal families had knowledge about the secret tunnels. For instance, Aegon II and his children presumably slipped out of Maegor's Holdfast through Maegor's old escape way Varys mentioned in the series, yet it seems as if even Alicent, Otto, Rhaenyra, and Daemon - all long-term residents and members of the royal family - had no clue about that particular way.

My personal idea is that the Targaryens inherited maps of the tunnels from Maegor, and subsequently handed them to those Masters of Whisperers they trusted. Varys would have gotten the maps when Aerys II named him Master of Whisperers. Considering Aerys' paranoia I find it unlikely that he didn't use the tunnels and listening posts before he appointed Varys nor do I think Varys would have been very effective in his job had he first been forced to rediscover all of Maegor's tunnels on his own/with his little birds.

Not to mention that the historical knowledge he reveals about the castle strongly suggests he has access to historical documents.

On a symbolic level I agree that Varys' closeness to the Targaryen castle and his talk about it (and them) is a hint about his heritage - after all, a dragon is still a still a dragon. But this doesn't mean that Varys got such knowledge via his heritage.

Quote

Could he? I think you make it sound a lot easier than it would be. The guy was in irons in the Black Cells, which presumably were unfamilar to him. 

If he was in iron chained to the Wall in the black cells things would have been much more difficult, I agree. But we don't know that. And what we learn about the black cells in the books suggests that not many people are down there, especially not gaolers and the like. The black cells are mostly empty.

Quote

The Faceless Men surely use magic, the Glamors and their face changing. I dunno that I could come up with another example beyond that. Maybe they have spells that make it harder to be seen or stuff like that, but I don't recall it being mentioned. Nor anything about a lockpicking spell or a spell that would let him see in the darkness of the Black Cells / tell him the way out / allow him to incapacitate however many guards he came across unarmed / etc. Mind you I'm not necessary suggesting the man had resigned himself to death at the hands of Illyn Payne. Maybe he was waiting for his moment, and knew it would come when they were taking him out of the dungeon to be killed.

At Harrenhal Jaqen showed us that he can adapt and is able to improvise. Not to mention that the Faceless Men do not only kill with magic. I agree that things would have become pretty tricky in the cells, but it would have been quite some time until he ended up down there. And Varys would have been involved in all that any way, tangentially, considering that Rugen was the guy in charge of the black cells.

Quote

I'm not sure what you were trying to accomplish with these three words, other than maybe annoy @Lost Melnibonean

Not this time. Was just a way to mark the end of the my story up there.

Quote

Nobody is suggesting that Slynt single handedly saw through his disguise and arrested him. Or that quality leadership of the city watch would be a prerequisite for a Faceless Man being arrested. As I said before it's not always entirely about competence, shit happens. Not to mention there are a lot of goldcloaks and only one of Jaquen.

What I meant that surely there should have been some sort of trial in the Jaqen case, perhaps even involving Ned himself. The king is the supreme authority in the capital and presumably capital crimes would have fallen among the things the king would see to personally (which meant in Robert's case that the Hand would be forced to deal with such issues). But we don't learn anything about that.

Perhaps the Master of Laws also dispenses justice on that level, we don't know. But I doubt that your run-of-the-mill criminal ends up in the black cells. Whatever Rorge, Biter, and Jaqen were involved in (if they were accused of the same crime/arrested together) would have to be a major thing for them to end up in the black cells. 

Quote

Oh I don't doubt that he was accused of killing someone. There's a reason Yoren keeps him in that cage with the other two.

He would also have had to be convicted, right? If there was still a trial going on Yoren wouldn't have had the right to take the guys to the Wall, one assumes.

Quote

I guess for me it's an occams razor thing. Yes, everything you've suggested is in the realm of possibility. If it's revealed to be true eventually I have no problem with that. But it seems far more likely that he just got arrested and thrown in jail.

If it hadn't be the black cells I'd agree. Everybody can be imprisoned during some raid. But it would very much surprise me if a Faceless Man was actually caught red-handed during/after a murder he committed, nor do I find an unlucky accident of the sort that Jaqen was just at the wrong place at the wrong time to be falsely accused of having murdered somebody particularly convincing.

It is not impossible, of course, but then - considering that we know he has a mission in Oldtown (now) the really important question is why the hell he went to KL in the first place. Going to the Citadel this way makes no sense if you are coming from Braavos via ship or from anywhere in Essos.

Hopefully this mystery will be addressed and eventually resolved in future books.

[Testing Your Neurons]

Want to test your knowledge on the series??

Take this challenging quiz!

 

[RumHam]

30 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If he was in iron chained to the Wall in the black cells things would have been much more difficult, I agree. But we don't know that. And what we learn about the black cells in the books suggests that not many people are down there, especially not gaolers and the like. The black cells are mostly empty.

I checked and it seems Ned wasn't chained up, though that could have been due to his station and/or leg injury. I have a hard time imagining that normal Black Cells prisoners aren't chained. I mean these are supposed to be the worst cells, right? Either way the darkness and not knowing where to go to escape would remain issues. And then if he got out of the cells, what then? Maybe he could kill a guard and steal a face, but it's not a given. 

38 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

At Harrenhal Jaqen showed us that he can adapt and is able to improvise. Not to mention that the Faceless Men do not only kill with magic. I agree that things would have become pretty tricky in the cells, but it would have been quite some time until he ended up down there. And Varys would have been involved in all that any way, tangentially, considering that Rugen was the guy in charge of the black cells.

It's much easier to adapt and improvise when you're not imprisoned. Arya shows us many times how she can improvise and be capable, but put her in the Black Cells and I'm still not betting on her escape. Jaime certainly is capable, but never manages to escape custody without help, and even then not for very long.

I'm not suggesting the Faceless Men only kill with magic. You suggested Jaquen could have escaped using magic. I assume because you realized that exempting that his escape was incredibly unlikely. I don't see how Rugen factors into it. You seem to be suggesting that no one could truly escape the Black Cells, that Rugen would have had to have let them go. That's fine, I don't disagree. But it's not especially relevant unless you've already assumed your point: that Jaquen was able to escape but chose not to. I just don't think this was the case. 

I would also point out that we do at one point see Jaquen stuck in chains behind a a locked door (with no guards around) about to burn to death, and he needs Arry to help him get out. 

48 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Not this time. Was just a way to mark the end of the my story up there.

Unfortunaelty I think the extra word in that sentence leaves your meaning somewhat muddled. But normally when someone makes a counter argument and then says "end of story" they're speaking from a position of authority or expertise. I've never heard anyone finish a story and then, say / write "End of Story." But whatever, I was only teasing. 

51 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

What I meant that surely there should have been some sort of trial in the Jaqen case, perhaps even involving Ned himself.

I really dunno how you can say that when we know for a fact that Ned was thrown in those same cells sans trial. The closest thing to a trial he got was on the steps of the sept. I dunno that the Seven Kingdoms stress "innocent until proven guilty" like most modern courts do. But here in modern America "innocent" suspects are routinely remanded to custody while awaiting trial. 

54 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Perhaps the Master of Laws also dispenses justice on that level, we don't know. 

This is from the MUSH background info, so I don't think it's technically canon, but:

Quote

Master of Laws - The master of laws oversees the law of the realm, committing any changes to the records and maintaining the codices. They are advisory and supervisory in their role, and are not themselves justiciars -- they do not try cases or pronounce judgments, except in so far as is appropriate to their own rank (i.e. a lord who is master of law would still try cases within his own lands). They also carry the task of overseeing the specific legal apparatus of King's Landing, reducing the work the king himself must carry out in hearing petitions. This is a Greater Office.

Again not canon until it's supported in the books, but I thought I'd point it out. 

59 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

He would also have had to be convicted, right? If there was still a trial going on Yoren wouldn't have had the right to take the guys to the Wall, one assumes.

As I pointed out above, no trial is required for Jaqen to find himself in the Black Cells. We have no notion of how long he was down there. I believe we're told that Ned gave everyone in the dungeons to Yoren. Could one of the men have objected because they hadn't yet been tried? Sure. But think about what chance these people faced at trial.  No presumed innocence. No right to collect witnesses or even demand trial by combat. They must have known they were going to be condemned. Or at least that they had better chance of escaping on the long road north than being acquitted by a Justiciar.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

But it would very much surprise me if a Faceless Man was actually caught red-handed during/after a murder he committed

Said as if nothing else surprising had ever happened in the series. I keep thinking of that SSM where someone kept asking Martin who would win in a fight. He explained that strength and skill were only part of it, and the greatest knight could be defeated by the lowliest in single combat due to a wet patch of grass he slipped on, or a bought of indigestion. I think the same principle holds true for all professions. Everyone can fuck up. Or be caught sleeping. Or sacrifice themselves to complete their mission. I guess it's just a pet peeve of mine when people talk about Varys / Littlefinger / The Faceless Men as if they are omniscient and can never fail. Seeing every twist of their plot ahead of time so they can adapt accordingly. I don't buy it, magic aside. 

[aryagonnakill#2]

20 hours ago, RumHam said:

So by that logic Blood and Cheese were also secret Targaryens? Littlefinger also knows about the secret exit which he takes Eddard out through and Sansa and Dontos later use to escape the castle. 

We're not given an explanation of how he got there, but I don't think one is really required. It's not that out of place. Faceless Men are not perfect, and anyone can be caught (or killed.) It depends on a lot more than that person's competence or skill level. Even if one rejects the possibility that a Faceless Man could botch a job and get caught, it'd still be possible that he was arrested for another less calculated murder. Maybe even one he was innocent of. Maybe someone attacked him in the street and he killed them in self defense only to be surrounded by goldcloaks. We don't know, but there are countless possibilities. Many of which seem far more likely than any of the "he wanted to be in the Black Cells" theories. 

I can't remember Sansa and Dontos, and I could be wrong about this also, but didn't LF and Eddard meet up outside the tower of the hand not inside the red keep?

 

Blood and Cheese for sure went to the tower of the hand, not the Red Keep.

[RumHam]

5 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I can't remember Sansa and Dontos, and I could be wrong about this also, but didn't LF and Eddard meet up outside the tower of the hand not inside the red keep?

 

Blood and Cheese for sure went to the tower of the hand, not the Red Keep.

The Tower of the Hand is a part of the Red Keep. You may be thinking of Maegor's Holdfast with is another part of the Red Keep with it's own drawbridge. 

[aryagonnakill#2]

40 minutes ago, RumHam said:

The Tower of the Hand is a part of the Red Keep. You may be thinking of Maegor's Holdfast with is another part of the Red Keep with it's own drawbridge. 

Ok ya that's what I was thinking about then because I am pretty sure there is a line about blood and cheese not being able to get into Maegors Holdfast. 

[Lord Varys]

On 9.8.2016 at 4:27 AM, RumHam said:

I checked and it seems Ned wasn't chained up, though that could have been due to his station and/or leg injury. I have a hard time imagining that normal Black Cells prisoners aren't chained. I mean these are supposed to be the worst cells, right? Either way the darkness and not knowing where to go to escape would remain issues. And then if he got out of the cells, what then? Maybe he could kill a guard and steal a face, but it's not a given.

The black cells are the third level dungeon cells. The worst are down on the fourth level, those were the ones Maegor had designed to torture people.

Sure it is not a given. I'm just confused about the fact that Jaqen did end up in the black cells in the first place. In fact, this whole thing is one of the few things that gives credence to the idea that Jaqen is Syrio Forel because Syrio most likely would have ended up in the black cells had he been taken alive by Meryn Trant.

One could see Syrio the Faceless Man steal the face of another prisoner down in the dungeons, or at least change his face down there so that he did not die as Syrio Forel.

On 9.8.2016 at 4:27 AM, RumHam said:

It's much easier to adapt and improvise when you're not imprisoned. Arya shows us many times how she can improvise and be capable, but put her in the Black Cells and I'm still not betting on her escape. Jaime certainly is capable, but never manages to escape custody without help, and even then not for very long.

Sure, I'm not making the point that a Faceless Man must escape a dungeon like the black cells. However, assuming that whoever put him there doesn't know who and what he is makes it exceedingly unlikely that a Faceless Man couldn't have figured out a way to escape. Say, by killing the poor sots who were bringing him food. We are not getting the impression that the dungeon personnel in the Red Keep, on Dragonstone, or the Wolf's Den always shows up in strength when interacting with the prisoners.

On 9.8.2016 at 4:27 AM, RumHam said:

I'm not suggesting the Faceless Men only kill with magic. You suggested Jaquen could have escaped using magic. I assume because you realized that exempting that his escape was incredibly unlikely. I don't see how Rugen factors into it. You seem to be suggesting that no one could truly escape the Black Cells, that Rugen would have had to have let them go. That's fine, I don't disagree. But it's not especially relevant unless you've already assumed your point: that Jaquen was able to escape but chose not to. I just don't think this was the case.

I don't really make a case there. I don't know what to think of this whole thing, actually. I'm inclined to believe that only Varys would have been able to recognize and capture a Faceless Man should one of them have been sent to KL to kill somebody there. But that is only in scenario in which Jaqen got to KL for important plot reasons. If he was just stupidly caught red-handed over a corpses or rounded up in some raid then all bets are off. However, it would then be strange what the hell he did in KL in the first place if his actual mission was in Oldtown.

On 9.8.2016 at 4:27 AM, RumHam said:

I would also point out that we do at one point see Jaquen stuck in chains behind a a locked door (with no guards around) about to burn to death, and he needs Arry to help him get out.

Sure, I never said Jaqen was a superman.

On 9.8.2016 at 4:27 AM, RumHam said:

I really dunno how you can say that when we know for a fact that Ned was thrown in those same cells sans trial. The closest thing to a trial he got was on the steps of the sept. I dunno that the Seven Kingdoms stress "innocent until proven guilty" like most modern courts do. But here in modern America "innocent" suspects are routinely remanded to custody while awaiting trial.

Well, my line of reasoning was more that some nobody might not easily end up in the black cells unless he was already scheduled for execution. But that could be wrong, of course. A guy caught in a raid along with some other people most likely would not end up there, though. So either Jaqen was accused and possibly convicted of some very serious crime or it is odd that he was down there in the first place.

On 9.8.2016 at 4:27 AM, RumHam said:

This is from the MUSH background info, so I don't think it's technically canon, but:

Again not canon until it's supported in the books, but I thought I'd point it out.

It shouldn't be canon at least in the sense that the Master of Laws is called justiciar after Cersei takes over in AFfC. Thus one assumes that the Master of Laws actually was a justiciar earlier on.

On 9.8.2016 at 4:27 AM, RumHam said:

Said as if nothing else surprising had ever happened in the series. I keep thinking of that SSM where someone kept asking Martin who would win in a fight. He explained that strength and skill were only part of it, and the greatest knight could be defeated by the lowliest in single combat due to a wet patch of grass he slipped on, or a bought of indigestion. I think the same principle holds true for all professions. Everyone can fuck up. Or be caught sleeping. Or sacrifice themselves to complete their mission. I guess it's just a pet peeve of mine when people talk about Varys / Littlefinger / The Faceless Men as if they are omniscient and can never fail. Seeing every twist of their plot ahead of time so they can adapt accordingly. I don't buy it, magic aside. 

I've no general issue with the Faceless Men failing once in a while. That should happen. The irritating thing is more that Jaqen apparently went to Oldtown via KL for some strange reason. Was his mission in KL completely unrelated to the Oldtown mission later on? And if not, how are they connected to each other?

[RumHam]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I've no general issue with the Faceless Men failing once in a while. That should happen. The irritating thing is more that Jaqen apparently went to Oldtown via KL for some strange reason. Was his mission in KL completely unrelated to the Oldtown mission later on? And if not, how are they connected to each other?

I wish we knew if the Faceless Men had to return to Braavos for new assignments, or if they had some method of keeping track of and getting new orders to their members in the field. 

[Runaway Penguin]

He might have needed to go to KL to acquire intelligence. For example to learn what exactly to look for in Oldtown (or who). I guess he might be just FM "Researcher at large".

[Thuckey]

Can an expert please answer these questions for me.. I recently rewatched season1 of the show and was confused about a few things.

 

Why does Varys go ahead and send the birds to assassin Dany? I know that he had to keep up appareances and whatnot, and in the books his main goal I assume was to instate fAegon to the throne - but fAegon does not exist on the show. The start of S5 has Varys explaining to Tyrion that all along he's been pulling for the Targs, with Dany as his main firepower.

 

So why would he go ahead and let her die then on orders of King Robert? I don't understand. Season1 Varys seemed like he had a grand plan that had every angel covered, though it is not fully explained to the audience he surely has something up his sleeve and this strongly conradicts him. What is going on ...?

 

As far as show Littefinger goes.. why does it seem like everything he does is planned out yet spur of the moment at the same time? Is he truly just a gambler by nature or it there some sort of structure to his moves etc? It really stops making sense when you look at everything that happens after.

 

Is this simply just a side effect of book-tv differences not thought out well enough? IMO ruins the characters on the show.. they just have a "vibe" of they are responsible for setting off major political plotline behind the scenes, where in the books they truly DO seem responsible. The show versions of them seem like a mess but in season 1 they are shown as very important somehow yet it never truly solidifies logically. 

[Lord Wraith]

1 hour ago, Thuckey said:

Can an expert please answer these questions for me.. I recently rewatched season1 of the show and was confused about a few things.

 

Why does Varys go ahead and send the birds to assassin Dany? I know that he had to keep up appareances and whatnot, and in the books his main goal I assume was to instate fAegon to the throne - but fAegon does not exist on the show. The start of S5 has Varys explaining to Tyrion that all along he's been pulling for the Targs, with Dany as his main firepower.

 

So why would he go ahead and let her die then on orders of King Robert? I don't understand. Season1 Varys seemed like he had a grand plan that had every angel covered, though it is not fully explained to the audience he surely has something up his sleeve and this strongly conradicts him. What is going on ...?

 

As far as show Littefinger goes.. why does it seem like everything he does is planned out yet spur of the moment at the same time? Is he truly just a gambler by nature or it there some sort of structure to his moves etc? It really stops making sense when you look at everything that happens after.

 

Is this simply just a side effect of book-tv differences not thought out well enough? IMO ruins the characters on the show.. they just have a "vibe" of they are responsible for setting off major political plotline behind the scenes, where in the books they truly DO seem responsible. The show versions of them seem like a mess but in season 1 they are shown as very important somehow yet it never truly solidifies logically. 

Varys sent the bird to kill Dany then sent a bird to Jorah to prevent the assassination. Dany was never in any danger from the poisoner Jorah basically set the whole thing up.

The show does a number of Baelish's character.  He is very different in the books. I do think his strength is his ability to adapt to the constant changing powers in Westeros.

[Lord Varys]

15 hours ago, RumHam said:

I wish we knew if the Faceless Men had to return to Braavos for new assignments, or if they had some method of keeping track of and getting new orders to their members in the field. 

That is an interesting question. If they don't have a telepathic link to each other one should assume they have to return back home. Or at least Jaqen would have considering that it is very unlikely he was allowed to keep his Faceless Men assassin kit when he was thrown into the black cells or got his stuff back when he was sent to the Wall. The only magical device we know of you could use to contact people on the other end of the world would be Valyrian glass candles. And those should be difficult to hide (nor have we any reason to assume any of them would have worked before the birth of the dragons).

Unless, of course, he used a glamor or other magics to hide something like that. I mean, he still has the iron coin when he gives it to Arya later on, and he also had the poison he used to turn Weese's dog against the man (although he technically could have stolen that from some maester at Harrenhal - but then, it would be far-fetched to assume that maesters are running around with powerful poisons all the time).

The other question is, of course, is Jaqen at Oldtown on orders given to him by the House of Black and White or is he there on orders given to him by a client of the Faceless Men? That would be important to know.

We can be reasonably sure that his mission in Oldtown is to either steal or copy information from the Blood and Fire or The Death of the Dragons book that is hidden in the vaults of the Citadel. If that's true, then I'd put more money on this being a mission on behalf of the House of Black and White rather than a client considering the anti-dragon resentment Tycho Nestoris had given us in ADwD.

In combination with the Iron Bank's alliance with Stannis right now knowing how to kill the dragons would become even more important than before. I'd not be surprised one bit if Jaqen-Pate has already gotten or will get what he needs early on in TWoW and then return to Braavos where his return will trigger a series of events that leads then to Arya's first real mission for the Faceless Men - and that would be killing Dany and/or the dragons.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

With regards to Jaqen, it could be possible that he was looking for something in the dungeons of the Red Keep. Maybe he was hoping to find more dragon eggs/ scrolls down there?

 

LF and Varys:

LF's motives are clearer than Varys' - he wants power, and he wants Sansa 

Varys' motives are not so clear yet. Most probably he wants to restore Blackfyre blood on the throne through FAegon.

The interesting thing is how their plans affect each other. I always found it weird why Varys went along with LF's dagger lie in AGOT, considering he tells Illyrio that he wanted to delay the disintegration of the Seven Kingdoms.

It's also unlikely that he does not know (or suspect) LF's involvement in Sansa's disappearance. It's going to be interesting to see if in TWOW there might be some kind of alliance between the Vale and Aegon's camp - as the well-rested Vale army will be of great help to Aegon.

 

ETA: Illyrio and not Varys wanted to delay, I messed up there (thanks, @OuttaOldtown)

[OuttaOldtown]

30 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

With regards to Jaqen, it could be possible that he was looking for something in the dungeons of the Red Keep. Maybe he was hoping to find more dragon eggs/ scrolls down there?

 

LF and Varys:

LF's motives are clearer than Varys' - he wants power, and he wants Sansa 

Varys' motives are not so clear yet. Most probably he wants to restore Blackfyre blood on the throne through FAegon.

The interesting thing is how their plans affect each other. I always found it weird why Varys went along with LF's dagger lie in AGOT, considering he tells Illyrio that he wanted to delay the disintegration of the Seven Kingdoms.

It's also unlikely that he does not know (or suspect) LF's involvement in Sansa's disappearance. It's going to be interesting to see if in TWOW there might be some kind of alliance between the Vale and Aegon's camp - as the well-rested Vale army will be of great help to Aegon.

 

 

Illyrio wishes to delay, Varys seems to think to make haste..

“Too soon, too soon,” the voice with the accent complained. “What good is war now?

We are not ready. Delay.”

“As well bid me stop time. Do you take me for a wizard?”

The other chuckled. “No less.” Flames licked at the cold air. The tall shadows were almost on top of her. An instant later the man holding the torch climbed into her sight, his companion beside him.

Arya crept back away from the well, dropped to her stomach, and flattened herself against the wall. She held her breath as the men reached the top of the steps.

“What would you have me do?” asked the torchbearer, a stout man in a leather half cape. Even in heavy boots, his feet seemed to glide soundlessly over the ground. A round scarred face and a stubble of dark beard showed under his steel cap, and he wore mail over boiled leather, and a dirk and shortsword at his belt. It seemed to Arya there was something oddly familiar about him.

“If one Hand can die, why not a second?” replied the man with the accent and the forked yellow beard. “You have danced the dance before, my friend.” He was no one Arya had ever seen before, she was certain of it. Grossly fat, yet he seemed to walk lightly, carrying his weight on the balls of his feet as a water dancer might. His rings glimmered in the torchlight, red-gold and pale silver, crusted with rubies, sapphires, slitted yellow tiger eyes. Every finger wore a ring; some had two.

“Before is not now, and this Hand is not the other,” the scarred man said as they stepped out into the hall. Still as stone, Arya told herself, quiet as a shadow. Blinded by the blaze of their own torch, they did not see her pressed flat against the stone, only a few feet away.

“Perhaps so,” the forked beard replied, pausing to catch his breath after the long climb.

“Nonetheless, we must have time. The princess is with child. The khal will not bestir himself until his son is born. You know how they are, these savages.”

The man with the torch pushed at something. Arya heard a deep rumbling. A huge slab of rock, red in the torchlight, slid down out of the ceiling with a resounding crash that almost made her cry out.

Where the entry to the well had been was nothing but stone, solid and unbroken.

“If he does not bestir himself soon, it may be too late,” the stout man in the steel cap said. “This is no longer a game for two players, if ever it was. Stannis Baratheon and Lysa Arryn have fled beyond my reach, and the whispers say they are gathering swords around them. The Knight of Flowers writes Highgarden, urging his lord father to send his sister to court. The girl is a maid of fourteen, sweet and beautiful and tractable, and Lord Renly and Ser Loras intend that Robert should bed her, wed her, and make a new queen. Littlefinger … the gods only know what game Littlefinger is playing. Yet Lord Stark’s the one who troubles my sleep. He has the bastard, he has the book, and soon enough he’ll have the truth. And now his wife has abducted Tyrion Lannister, thanks to Littlefinger’s meddling. Lord Tywin will take that for an outrage, and Jaime has a queer affection for the Imp. If the Lannisters move north, that will bring the Tullys in as well. Delay, you say. Make haste, I reply. Even the finest of jugglers cannot keep a hundred balls in the air forever.”

“You are more than a juggler, old friend. You are a true sorcerer. All I ask is that you work your magic awhile longer.” They started down the hall in the direction Arya had come, past the room with the monsters.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

6 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

 

Illyrio wishes to delay, Varys seems to think to make haste..

 

 

Thanks, I seemed to remember it the other way around! 

[Lord Varys]

52 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

With regards to Jaqen, it could be possible that he was looking for something in the dungeons of the Red Keep. Maybe he was hoping to find more dragon eggs/ scrolls down there?

If that was the case it would be very odd for him to end up as a prisoner down there. Especially considering that he should have been able to impersonate people who actually have access to the dungeons.

Quote

LF and Varys:

LF's motives are clearer than Varys' - he wants power, and he wants Sansa 

Varys' motives are not so clear yet. Most probably he wants to restore Blackfyre blood on the throne through FAegon.

The interesting thing is how their plans affect each other. I always found it weird why Varys went along with LF's dagger lie in AGOT, considering he tells Illyrio that he wanted to delay the disintegration of the Seven Kingdoms.

The dagger lie has to be seen in context. There are hints that Varys and Littlefinger might have worked together murdering Jon Arryn. After all, if Varys/Illyrio don't want things to explode before they are ready then it would have been most unfortunate for their plans if Jon Arryn had actually told Robert the truth about Cersei's children.

In fact, it might be that Stannis became suspicious all by himself, then told Jon Arryn about his suspicions. Varys then learned about that the way he does told Littlefinger about it (feigning that his interest was in saving both their necks considering that Stannis as Hand or heir presumptive/next king could mean both their ends) who then arranged for Lysa to poison her husband.

Varys might even have been aware of the letter Littlefinger had Lysa write to Cat as to deflect suspicions away from Lysa, Littlefinger, and himself. The fact that Varys actually turns to Littlefinger after he learns of Cat's presence and is subsequently present when they discuss things is a strong hint in that direction. As is Illyrio's hint that Varys may have been behind the murder of Jon Arryn.

You have to keep in mind that the dagger lie is not necessarily all that grievous or smart a misdirection. Especially in light of the fact that Varys must at once have realized that said dagger actually belonged to King Robert by the time it was used in an attempt on the life of Bran and Catelyn. Blaming Tyrion for the deed was a much better idea than actually putting the idea in Catelyn's head that King Robert himself wanted to kill her and her son.

Quote

It's also unlikely that he does not know (or suspect) LF's involvement in Sansa's disappearance. It's going to be interesting to see if in TWOW there might be some kind of alliance between the Vale and Aegon's camp - as the well-rested Vale army will be of great help to Aegon.

The general idea is that Ser Shadrich might be a former little bird (or perhaps even a little mouse) in Varys' service who has been sent as an agent to the Vale to keep an eye on Littlefinger and Sansa and to influence events there in a way that favor Varys and Illyrio's plans.

It is not just Shadrich's banner depicting a mouse but also the moment in Alayne 1 that indicates that somebody might have taken a look at Littlefinger's papers. She enters his chamber with the window open and the papers in disarray which she attributes to the wind. But we do know that the little mice back in Pentos were trained to climb through windows and the like to read important papers and memorize their contents.

If there is anything to that then the chances are pretty good that the Vale will come to conclusion to back or declare for Prince Aegon. Especially if Shadrich finds ways to feed Sansa such an idea who then might force Littlefinger to see things her way.

But even without Shadrich - a Targaryen restoration should be a very welcome idea for Sansa in any possible scenario. It would mean the end of the Lannister-Tyrell regime and the end of King Tommen, meaning that she would have no reason to be afraid of them again. Some schemes to install her as Lady of Winterfell are well and good but would not protect her from Lannister repercussions in the long run should King Tommen remain on the throne. She is accused of being complicit in the murder of King Joffrey, and such a crime is not just going to be forgiven or forgotten. Not while kings of the Lannister-Baratheon dynasty still sit on the Iron Throne.