Anath Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Jon Snow wished to join the Night Watch? Perhaps. But with Benjen's dismissive words of Daeron I and how war no game for little children, one would think that Benjen (and Ned) would have made it sure to explain the reality to this other boy of 14 (which was, coincidentally, the Young Dragon's age) before letting him indulge in a game that would last for life. If Catelyn knew what he'd be losing and was pleased with it since it gave her additional security, then Ned would know as well - and he'd know Jon didn't really have an idea where he was going, who he would be meeting and what he would never have. It isn't that Ned is a bad father to Jon, far from it. But he did make a decision that would bind Jon for life. The moment Ned said it was the Nigh's Watch, there was no way back for Jon because Ned wasn't a bad father. Jon trusted him and believed that Ned would not do something to his detriment. Angry or not, a lifetime of trust has a stronger impact than the feeling that he was being driven away from the only home he knew. If Ned wanted to send him to the Wall, then the Wall must be worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Barristan the Badass Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Roose Bolton is obviously the best father. He took in a bastard and gave him the Bolton name and he also lets him have fun any way he chooses so long as Ramsay keeps it quiet, can't beat that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 2 minutes ago, Anath said: Jon Snow wished to join the Night Watch? Perhaps. But with Benjen's dismissive words of Daeron I and how war no game for little children, one would think that Benjen (and Ned) would have made it sure to explain the reality to this other boy of 14 (which was, coincidentally, the Young Dragon's age) before letting him indulge in a game that would last for life. If Catelyn knew what he'd be losing and was pleased with it since it gave her additional security, then Ned would know as well - and he'd know Jon didn't really have an idea where he was going, who he would be meeting and what he would never have. It isn't that Ned is a bad father to Jon, far from it. But he did make a decision that would bind Jon for life. The moment Ned said it was the Nigh's Watch, there was no way back for Jon because Ned wasn't a bad father. Jon trusted him and believed that Ned would not do something to his detriment. Angry or not, a lifetime of trust has a stronger impact than the feeling that he was being driven away from the only home he knew. If Ned wanted to send him to the Wall, then the Wall must be worth it. Yeah, that's pretty much it. And Jon Snow becomes disillusioned about his father in the wake of his realization that Eddard Stark must have known, as Tyrion did, what the Night's Watch truly was. And as it happens Eddard Stark also does not believe the Others exist (anymore) so for him the NW is the same it is to the average Southron lord - a place where you can dump all the unwanted of the Realm. Tradition still connects the NW closely to the Starks as it does connect the Starks to many other ancient First Men customs. But those traditions are dying. By the way - George still has the chance to revisit Ned and Jon's last conversation. If we assume that Jon Snow will eventually be told by someone that he is not, in fact, Eddard Stark's son then this should trigger a lot of memories in his mind about his interactions with his so-called father. He would search for any hints/clues that this story of him not being Ned's son is either true or false. And nothing would fit better into all that than a memory of his last conversation with Ned. That could be especially interesting if Ned talked to Jon about Lyanna in that last conversation. George really kept that whole thing open for such a thing as neither Ned nor Jon ever remember this thing, and one imagines that George decided to not cover it in AGoT for a reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tijgy Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 47 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: 'm very aware that there are some noble names among the NW. But there are no names of great northern houses aside from the Starks in the NW (the Mormonts aren't exactly a great northern house). The Royces are an old and traditional house but there are hints that Bronze Yohn either cannot afford feeding his spare sons, or is not willing to. Waymar is shipped off to the NW, and Robar is forced to leave the Vale to make a name of himself, eventually joining King Renly. That makes Waymar look as if Yohn just found a convenient way to get rid of another mouth to feed. And how Dolorous Edd ended at the Wall isn't even clear. The Tolletts (or only he) could have chosen the wrong side during the Rebellion, after all.  You are completely wrong about your opinion the Mormont aren't a great northern house. Their direct overlord are the Starks/Boltons/... The Umbers, ... are standing on the same "level". The Glovers and the Tallhaerts are actually lower than them because they are only a "Master". Robar went to fight for Renly for glory. Is there any indication he sent Waymar there for financial problems? Waymar wanted to have the honor of the command also probably because he was seeking glory, honor, ... There is no indication he forced them there because "he could not feed themselves" IIRC. Edd says he joined the NW because Yoren tricked him (ladies like uniforms - damn, an oath of chastity). And the brother of the North's Lord Paramount is the first ranger. 47 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: And of course it is also the failure of the Starks and the Northmen in general that the NW declined. They are closest to the Wall, and therefore they have the greatest interest in supporting the NW. But the NW still declined, so either they did not everything they could to support it or they failed. While it is quite possible/likely that the Northmen closest to the Wall support the NW as best they can with provisions and stuff, it remains a fact that as a whole the elite of the Northmen has better things to do than to send their younger sons and brothers to the NW. Else there would be Boltons, Manderlys, Karstarks, Umbers, Dustins, Ryswells, Glovers, etc. all over the place at the Wall. But they are not, and that's a fact.  No, it is not their fault. The Night's Watch is an institution who defends the realm of men. It should not be primarily an institution who consists of northmen. Technically every kingdom should proportionate send a part of their men to the Night's Watch. That was actually the reason why it was created? Why it should consists of men over all the realm? Otherwise if it would only consist of Northmen, you should actually just throw the vow away now? Because it is then just a part of the Northern army. Further you are actually saying the North should spent a large deal of their army/men to an institution only interested in defending one part of their territory, while they might be needed to farm the land (very important for the North), defend other parts of the kingdom. Robb was able to call 20 000 men quickly to form his army. At their fullest power the Watch a more over ten-thousand men-at-arms. To get the Watch at his fullest strength, how many would Robb lose? How many men would there still be to farm the lands (Did Alys not say they had not enough men to farm the land?). And what would they do if the Wall was breached? Normally there would still an army to defend the North? Who would do it otherwise? And several times it was actually the power of the Starks who broke the wildlings. At the Conquest the Night's Watch still consisted of 10 000 men. 300 years later they have less then thousand men. Mmm, what did change during those 300 years? It is kind of strange that during those 300 years the kingdoms were united (the power did probably already decline before the Conquest. But it decline more rapidly over the last 300 years). You should think it should be the person on the Iron Throne who should ensure his most vulnerable border is defended. Wait one gave a piece of land of the North to the Watch ... it kind of sucks that everyone of those lands fled to the mountains and the Umbers because of the raids. Quote Though in these days it is said that Lord Ellard Stark was glad to aid the Night's Watch with the Gift, and took little convincing, the truth is otherwise. Letters from Lord Stark's brother to the Citadel, asking the maesters to provide precedents against the forced donation of property, made it plain that the Starks were not eager to do as King Jaehaerys bid. It may be that the Starks feared that, under the control of the Castle Black, the New Gift would inevitably decline—for the Night's Watch would always look northward and never give much thought to their new tenants to the south. And as it happens, that soon came to pass, and the New Gift is now said to be largely unpopulated thanks to the decline of the Watch and the rising toll taken by raiders from beyond the Wall.  And Quote Only the fact that the Northmen themselves greatly honor the Watch has kept it functioning, and a great part of the food that keeps the black brothers of Castle Black, the Shadow Tower, and Eastwatch-by-the-Sea from starving comes not from the Gift but from the yearly gifts these Northern lords deliver to the Wall in token of their support. Long live the North? You have also the fact Ned sends for Benjen when the King comes, Ned tells Robert he should speak to Ben and should visit the Wall so he could see it for himself, the idea of the resettlement of the Gift. This actually shows Ned thought the Watch was important. 1 hour ago, Lord Varys said: And we also have no idea whether the likes of Bowen Marsh, Wynton Stout, and the other noble officer went to the Wall of their own free will. We certainly know for a fact that the future Lord Commander Brynden Rivers didn't go there because he wanted to...  No, we don't. But we also don't know it of the other people I named. The most important is still how Ben and Ned looked at the Night's Watch. They did not thought the Night's Watch should be the place where the lower of the lowest should go to. All the Stark's children think the Night's Watch is an important goal. Bran thinks Jon should be happy he is going to North. It is (almost) as good as going to King's Landing. Sansa is surprised by Yoren's clothing, ... To them joining the Night's Watch is an adventure just like in the songs. Jon is more angry he can not ranging with his uncle Ben than about anything else. Ben also says to him that the Wall is hard place, ... And to be honest, I really want to know how you think that conversation would go? The Night's Watch consists of criminals and are watching out for gremlins and snarks ... but ... why did uncle Ben join the Night's Watch? Why are you interested than in the resettlement of the Gift? Why do you send them all those materials? But uncle Ben, why consider you these men as brothers while they are rapists? ... This conversation would probably make no sense if you regard how Ned and Ben probably look at the institution: something made of men who are protecting the North and the rest of the realm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 2 hours ago, Tijgy said: stuff Well, I didn't speak about the title stuff when I said the Mormonts weren't a great northern house. They just control a small island that is, most likely, in no way more densely populated than the other northern regions of the North. In that sense, the Glovers and Tallharts certainly would control more men than the Mormonts. Not to mention that the title is irrelevant - Bear Island, Deepwood Motte, and Torrhen's Square are all directly sworn to Winterfell. Robar Royce talks to Catelyn about why he joined 'King Renly', and his answer suggests that there was no place for him at Runestone. No lands, no titles, no honors, and, of course, no glory and no incomes. Whether a similar thing led to Waymar taking the black is another question - I just speculated that something similar might be the case. But the fact remains: Waymar is just one guy, and one guy isn't helping the NW all that much, right? During the time Jon Snow is at Castle Black the only nobleman taking the black was Samwell Tarly - and we know how that happened. More importantly, no wandering crow ever brought any northern recruits with him as far as I remember. Jon himself was the only recruit from Winterfell - there was no one in the Winterfell smallfolk who had any inclination to join their lord's bastard in his adventures... I should have made it more clearer - I don't buy Edd's story there, just as I don't take many of his comments at face value. And I think it's pretty clear that Eddison never was the Lord Tollett nor his heir. The NW protects 'the realms of men', yes, but from what, exactly? The last thousands of years it apparently exclusively protected the Kings in the North and their subjects from wildling incursions and invasions. The Princess of Dorne or the King of the Rock and their lords and smallfolk have no reason to care about that one way or another. Only after the Kings in the North are overthrown by a wildling army would their lands be at risk. The decline of the NW didn't begin with the Targaryens. It was a very long process that couldn't be stopped because nobody really believes that the Others exist. Which means serving in the NW is an empty honor, a task with no real purpose. All you do there essentially is protecting some peasants you have nothing to do with - if you come from Dorne or the Reach - from some savages. Where is the honor in that? We see that Nymeria sent six Dornish kings in golden chains to the Wall hundreds of years before the Conquest. What does that tell us? That even back then the Night's Watch was a convenient way to get rid of troublesome rivals/criminals. After all, the chances are pretty high that those kings had no intention to take the black before they were defeated, right? The Northmen are the only people who have a good self-interest in supporting the NW. They man the Wall and (supposedly) keep the wildlings out of their lands. Yet we see no real movement in the North to strengthen the numbers of the NW. People leave the Gifts rather than volunteer to actually take the black. There no campaigns in the North to strengthen the motivation among the smallfolk to join the NW. At least there are none I'm aware of. Granted, we don't know how many Targaryen kings were great patrons of the NW. But as it happens it is the decision of every lord in the Realm to send criminals to the Wall and/or motivate their subjects to take up that cause. The Targaryen kings cannot do anything to stem the tide if the overall public opinion is that the Night's Watch's mission is a joke, and the Others do not exist. And when we look into AGoT it is quite clear that Ned doesn't believe that the Others exist, either. Yes, he honors the NW because his brother is one of them, and (presumably) because that's what the Starks do. But he couldn't suck more as protector and defender of the North and the NW because, you know, instead of strengthening its defenses he accepts the offer to become Hand and goes to KL. Not to mention that he does pretty much nothing there to actually convince Robert that the Wall is important. There is one throwaway line that Robert should speak to Benjen - we don't even know if that ever happened. Ned certainly doesn't give any indication that he pushed that issue with Robert. That is especially tragic in light of the fact that Ned actually hears the voice that his place is in the North and stuff, but really fails to connect or realize why this is the case. And that can only be explained if we assume he really thought Gared was a complete crackpot. The man presumably saw the Others and knew what had happened to Will and Waymar, yet Ned clearly didn't get the message. Not even after he talked to Benjen - who presumably could at least hammer home the fact that the NW was in very severe trouble and strange things were afoot. By the way - we actually know how Ben got the idea to join the NW. He heard the inspiring speech of a wandering crow at the tourney of Harrenhal. In light of Rickard Stark's so-called 'Southron ambitions' I'd be very surprised if Rickard groomed any of his sons to take the black. Ned clearly did not. Robb is his heir, and Bran supposed to be a great knight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Ned, except when it came to Jon and Cat, Oberyn, Davos, Selwyn and Walder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maester Egg Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 best father ... . the Kindly Man in the Temple of Black and White.  a father for the wandering Arya . the last greenseer, Bloodraven.  a father for the wandering Bran    Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Endymion I Targaryen Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 I too vote for Ned as best father.He gave his children the right values.It is not strange that all his children have good memories from him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime4Brienne Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 On 1/29/2016 at 6:52 AM, sciteacher said: Selwyn Tarth, Brienne's father. He kept singers, allowing Brienne to learn many songs. He tried many times to find her a suitable husband. He let her learn to be a good fighter when he realized that is all she really wanted to do. He allowed her to go out into the world to seek her fortune. He offered a reward when he heard she had been kidnapped. Â He was my choice too. Instead of being like Randyll Tarly and trying to force a round peg into a square hole he let her be who she is (of course this is after he saw trying to make her into anything else wasn't going to work) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drth Fel Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Randyll Tarly He tried to get his oldest son to accept the responsibility inherent in being a firstborn son, the protection of the family. When every effort failed, he went on to his next son, who shouldered the responsibility. He then disinherited Sam to prevent a possible power struggle between Sam and Dickon. Even when threatening Sam with the Wall or death, Sam could've stood up for himself just once. Randyll did everything possible to get Sam to protect his family. Ironically, it was being at the Wall that forced Sam to grow up.  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dariopatke Posted January 31, 2016 Author Share Posted January 31, 2016 Randyll Tarly He tried to get his oldest son to accept the responsibility inherent in being a firstborn son, the protection of the family. When every effort failed, he went on to his next son, who shouldered the responsibility. He then disinherited Sam to prevent a possible power struggle between Sam and Dickon. Even when threatening Sam with the Wall or death, Sam could've stood up for himself just once. Randyll did everything possible to get Sam to protect his family. Ironically, it was being at the Wall that forced Sam to grow up.  I kinda agree with first half, weak Umber, Mormont and Clegane would make a problem for liege lord. Sam was supposed to lead a van some day. I ask you, if Randyl is a good father why didnt he let his son's wish come true and send him to Oldtown to be a maester? It is a win-win scenario, Sam gets what he always wanted and Randyl has a proper heir. Instead he sent him to die and he would if he hadnt men Jon. He knew Sam wouldn't live a full year if he goes there, fortunately it didnt work out like this but it is the most possible scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drth Fel Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 ^The NW is a martial organization, the Citadel is not (not the military academy in South Carolina). Randyll may have hoped the NW would do what he couldn't, i.e. make Sam into a more martial person. It also rids him of danger. Maester Aemon was offered the throne; he joined the NW to avoid being used in a power play against his younger brother, Aegon the Unlikely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dariopatke Posted January 31, 2016 Author Share Posted January 31, 2016 ^The NW is a martial organization, the Citadel is not (not the military academy in South Carolina). Randyll may have hoped the NW would do what he couldn't, i.e. make Sam into a more martial person. It also rids him of danger. Maester Aemon was offered the throne; he joined the NW to avoid being used in a power play against his younger brother, Aegon the Unlikely. Aemon was offered because they didn't want a man like Aegon who grew up with commoners to be a King, Dickon would a good lord of HH and it wont be necessary to pick Sam and Sam wont want it. Why would Randyll care? He got rid of him, of he is one percent a father he would care about his son enough not to send him to death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairGrowsBack Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 4 hours ago, Jaime4Brienne said: He was my choice too. Instead of being like Randyll Tarly and trying to force a round peg into a square hole he let her be who she is (of course this is after he saw trying to make her into anything else wasn't going to work) I'm a bit torn about this. While I think he was a decent father, I don't believe he encouraged her to be what she wanted to be ; seems to me that he just couldn't be bothered to deal with her, and after three unsuccessful attempts to make her fit the westerosi mold (with two assholes, no less), he simply gave up and let her do whatever she wanted while he distracted himself with his "ladies". In a nutshell, he kinda feels like a divorce dad who doesn't know how to deal with his kids and let them do their stuff because he can't be bothered. Hopefully we'll learn more about him in the next books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime4Brienne Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Just now, HairGrowsBack said: I'm a bit torn about this. While I think he was a decent father, I don't believe he encouraged her to be what she wanted to be ; seems to me that he just couldn't be bothered to deal with her, and after three unsuccessful attempts to make her fit the westerosi mold (with two assholes, no less), he simply gave up and let her do whatever she wanted while he distracted himself with his "ladies". In a nutshell, he kinda feels like a divorce dad who doesn't know how to deal with his kids and let them do their stuff because he can't be bothered. Hopefully we'll learn more about him in the next books. That is an extremely interesting take on him...it's given me something to think about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairGrowsBack Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 21 minutes ago, Jaime4Brienne said: That is an extremely interesting take on him...it's given me something to think about. Well, that's what I've been thinking lately. I'd love to be wrong though, poor Brienne just can't have anything nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AryaGonnaEatThatDeadFatGuy Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 1 hour ago, dariopatke said: He got rid of him, of he is one percent a father he would care about his son enough not to send him to death. So would that mean Ned sent Jon to his death? And if he really wanted him to die he would have not sent the honor guard with Sam, or even more simply just killed him on the hunt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dariopatke Posted January 31, 2016 Author Share Posted January 31, 2016 So would that mean Ned sent Jon to his death? And if he really wanted him to die he would have not sent the honor guard with Sam, or even more simply just killed him on the hunt. No, Jon had a proper training, knew how to defend himself and his uncle is first rangery but I think he should have explained him what NW has become and thats why Ned isnt the best father, about Tarly I dont know ut again point of discusion was the best father and he certanly is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AryaGonnaEatThatDeadFatGuy Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 10 minutes ago, dariopatke said: No, Jon had a proper training, knew how to defend himself... What do you think is a safer job in non-Other times (or during). Ranger at the wall or Steward? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dariopatke Posted January 31, 2016 Author Share Posted January 31, 2016 What do you think is a safer job in non-Other times (or during). Ranger at the wall or Steward? Sorry I dont get what you are trying to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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