Best father in series?

[HexMachina]

1 hour ago, Slender Aimry Hill said:

Selwyn is a pretty cool dad, though we shouldn't dismiss the possibility that Brienne was a bit upset by the Evenstar's understandably quick turnover of groupies, 'a different lady every year'.

It sounds as though Selwyn was at least sort of discreet though - clearly he wasn't pawing these women in public and such, or even the most naive person would realise what was going on. I think Selwyn certainly sounds one of the better father's in the series.

[Lord Varys]

6 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

No, he didn't. Jon chose to go to the Nights Watch himself. Ned was unsure, Cat said he could not stay in her home. She never once told Ned to send him to the Watch. If Ned was so desperate not to give Jon what he wanted, he had plenty of bannermen who would have taken him in.

That is not true. A drunken Jon Snow entertained the notion of joining the Night's Watch of his own free will. But the decision that he had to go to the Night's Watch was made in Catelyn Stark's bedchamber by Eddard Stark, Catelyn Stark, and Maester Luwin. Keep in mind that said chapter ends with Ned telling that he'll tell Jon himself that he had to go to the Wall as they had decided he would, not that he would ask the boy whether this was truly (still) his wish. Not to mention that nobody - neither Ned nor Benjen - actually explained to Jon what a fucked-up place the Night's Watch really was.

In addition, there is the fact that Bran realizes that Jon Snow is pissed/sullen before he climbs the tower, a fact most likely connected to that last conversation between him and Ned where Ned flat-out told him that he had to go to the Wall. If Jon Snow wants to go to the Wall then he should actually look forward to that experience pretty much as much as Bran does to the journey south, right? And if his drunken desire to join the NW was all that sincere he had no problem leaving Winterfell as fourteen-year-old boy, right? This leads we to the conclusion that he realized that his desire to go to the Wall wasn't that strong after he sobered up.

The idea that many a northern lord would have gladly taken Jon in as his ward technically makes some sense, but such a scenario never comes up in the books, and one assumes that Jon Snow would have thought of that option when he realized what kind of scum his future brothers would be (on the way to the Wall) and subsequently would then and there have decided not to join the NW.

After all, he was free to go until he said his vows later on, and never once comes up the idea that he could make a living at some other place.

In light of that my guess is that it is very improper to ask a fellow nobleman you have no kinship with to take care of a bastard. This is also why I assume that Larence Snow must have had a Glover mother, or else it makes little sense for him to be raised at Deepwood Motte. That case a side, there is no scenario known in which a recognized noble or royal bastard had been fostered with a family that didn't have blood ties to the noble father or mother of the bastard.

[dariopatke]

Lord Varys is correct, he should at least tell him what Wall has became in past years. Also he let Cat to treat him like that, this shows Neds parenting skills and not Cats, thats why I think Cat is the best mother because she treats HER children well.

Ned could tell her the truth for Jons well when he was 4 or 5, she would be the only one who knew and no one would care if she slowly starts accepting him as a person and not a monster.

I like Selwyn, never even taught of him.

Davos is very good father, he isnt present when his children grow up, but everything he does is for his family and children. Kevan maybe? He seems to deeply care about them.

[Mladen]

29 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That is not true. A drunken Jon Snow entertained the notion of joining the Night's Watch of his own free will. But the decision that he had to go to the Night's Watch was made in Catelyn Stark's bedchamber by Eddard Stark, Catelyn Stark, and Maester Luwin. Keep in mind that said chapter ends with Ned telling that he'll tell Jon himself that he had to go to the Wall as they had decided he would, not that he would ask the boy whether this was truly (still) his wish. Not to mention that nobody - neither Ned nor Benjen - actually explained to Jon what a fucked-up place the Night's Watch really was.

The fact that no one spoke to Jon about Wall doesn't mean that it wasn't his choice. In 5 books, especially the first, never do we hear he was made to go there. Actually, we hear how "bastard can rise high". Wall was Jon's way of achieving something. Before he speaks to Benjen, he clearly states that it wasn't the idea he "entertained while drunk"

Quote

He had thought on it long and hard, lying abed at night while his brothers slept around him. Robb would someday inherit Winterfell, would command great armies as the Warden of the North. Bran and Rickon would be Robb's bannermen and rule holdfasts in his name. His sisters Arya and Sansa would marry the heirs of other great houses and go south as mistress of castles of their own. But what place could a bastard hope to earn?

 

[Ruhail]

Hmm...

Davos?

[Ruhail]

Scratch that I'll go with Brienne's father

[Hodor's Aunt]

Oberyn Martell is the best father obviously.

Doran Martell would be high on the list, too.

Tywin is a good father for two of his children.

Best mother? Um, Cersai cares for her children a lot. Both she and Cat are poor advisers to their children though.

[Lord Varys]

22 minutes ago, Risto said:

The fact that no one spoke to Jon about Wall doesn't mean that it wasn't his choice. In 5 books, especially the first, never do we hear he was made to go there. Actually, we hear how "bastard can rise high". Wall was Jon's way of achieving something. Before he speaks to Benjen, he clearly states that it wasn't the idea he "entertained while drunk"

Yes, he thought about it, but he only blurted it out while he was a drunk. It may easily have been that he thought about that as something he wanted to do when he was a man grown. The idea that he was ready to make such a decision as a fourteen-year-old can be attributed to him being drunk.

I agree that nobody ever states Jon Snow was forced to take the black in the books, but that's what's implied during the bedchamber conversation in AGoT. Jon Snow was stupid enough to come up with that idea himself, and Ned then decided - pressured by Catelyn and Luwin - that this is what Jon Snow would have to do. We don't know how the conversation between Ned and Jon went, but the impression I have from the Bran chapter and Jon later never even entertaining the notion of, say, living happily as a Stark bastard fostering with some other lord strongly implies that Ned didn't leave Jon any other choice to go through with his intention to go to the Wall. That in itself constitutes Jon Snow not really being free in this decision. Especially in light of the fact that Eddard Stark neither chose to tell Jon Snow the truth about the Night's Watch nor tell him the truth about his heritage and identity.

Jon Snow certainly was incapable of making an informed decision about his future, even if we assume Ned left it completely to him whether he wanted to go to the Wall or not. If there was a choice it most likely was between going to the Wall and leaving Winterfell (as Ned had it also made clear that he wouldn't take Jon with him to court).

[David Selig]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

That is not true. A drunken Jon Snow entertained the notion of joining the Night's Watch of his own free will. But the decision that he had to go to the Night's Watch was made in Catelyn Stark's bedchamber by Eddard Stark, Catelyn Stark, and Maester Luwin. Keep in mind that said chapter ends with Ned telling that he'll tell Jon himself that he had to go to the Wall as they had decided he would, not that he would ask the boy whether this was truly (still) his wish. Not to mention that nobody - neither Ned nor Benjen - actually explained to Jon what a fucked-up place the Night's Watch really was.

In addition, there is the fact that Bran realizes that Jon Snow is pissed/sullen before he climbs the tower, a fact most likely connected to that last conversation between him and Ned where Ned flat-out told him that he had to go to the Wall. If Jon Snow wants to go to the Wall then he should actually look forward to that experience pretty much as much as Bran does to the journey south, right? And if his drunken desire to join the NW was all that sincere he had no problem leaving Winterfell as fourteen-year-old boy, right? This leads we to the conclusion that he realized that his desire to go to the Wall wasn't that strong after he sobered up.

The idea that many a northern lord would have gladly taken Jon in as his ward technically makes some sense, but such a scenario never comes up in the books, and one assumes that Jon Snow would have thought of that option when he realized what kind of scum his future brothers would be (on the way to the Wall) and subsequently would then and there have decided not to join the NW.

After all, he was free to go until he said his vows later on, and never once comes up the idea that he could make a living at some other place.

In light of that my guess is that it is very improper to ask a fellow nobleman you have no kinship with to take care of a bastard.

Plot induced stupidity is the much more likely explanation. Martin needed Jon at the Wall so he made it happen. Plus, let's be honest, Jon isn't the sharpest tool in the drawer in AGOT.

[Ruhail]

7 minutes ago, David Selig said:

Plot induced stupidity is the much more likely explanation. Martin needed Jon at the Wall so he made it happen. Plus, let's be honest, Jon isn't the sharpest tool in the drawer in AGOT.

He has some typical teenage delusions and outburts in Agot but hes never stupid he shows foresight and beyond his age thinking at times. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

30 minutes ago, Hodor's Aunt said:

 

Doran Martell would be high on the list, too.

His own daughter tried to kill him and was convinced that he hated her and would be willing to kill both his own daughter and his nieces.

Tell me, Father, when did you decide to disinherit me? Was it the day that Quentyn was born, or the day that I was born? What did I ever do to make you hate me so?" To her fury, there were tears in her eyes.

He also admits to being a poor father to Quentyn

Her father's face darkened. "This mistrust does you no honor, Arianne. Quentyn should be the one conspiring against me. I sent him away when he was just a child, too young to understand the needs of Dorne. Anders Yronwood has been more a father to him than I have, yet your brother remains faithful and obedient."

 

And the sad thing is that you are right, by the very low standards of Westeros he is probably looked upon as one of the better fathers.

 

[Mladen]

29 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Yes, he thought about it, but he only blurted it out while he was a drunk. It may easily have been that he thought about that as something he wanted to do when he was a man grown. The idea that he was ready to make such a decision as a fourteen-year-old can be attributed to him being drunk.

I agree that nobody ever states Jon Snow was forced to take the black in the books, but that's what's implied during the bedchamber conversation in AGoT. Jon Snow was stupid enough to come up with that idea himself, and Ned then decided - pressured by Catelyn and Luwin - that this is what Jon Snow would have to do. We don't know how the conversation between Ned and Jon went, but the impression I have from the Bran chapter and Jon later never even entertaining the notion of, say, living happily as a Stark bastard fostering with some other lord strongly implies that Ned didn't leave Jon any other choice to go through with his intention to go to the Wall. That in itself constitutes Jon Snow not really being free in this decision. Especially in light of the fact that Eddard Stark neither chose to tell Jon Snow the truth about the Night's Watch nor tell him the truth about his heritage and identity.

Jon Snow certainly was incapable of making an informed decision about his future, even if we assume Ned left it completely to him whether he wanted to go to the Wall or not. If there was a choice it most likely was between going to the Wall and leaving Winterfell (as Ned had it also made clear that he wouldn't take Jon with him to court).

But that doesn't make the decision has been made in the room. If Jon said "no", there is no argument Ned would make him go to Wall. Simply, Catelyn made it clear that if she is to stay alone in WF and take care of everybody, Jon is not her responsibility. So, the decision that Jon goes to Wall was made with his consent. 

The thing regarding things Martin didn't show us is either to make a point or simply because they are irrelevant. And this conversation falls into irrelevant category. I do believe that Ned had a conversation about NW with Jon. Ned's approach must have been "Benjen told me you would like to join NW' instead "You have to join NW" since there is nothing that would suggest us that Ned actually ordered Jon to go to Wall. Naturally, we all agree that Jon would have preferred to stay in WF but the decision to go to Wall was his and his alone.

Again, nowhere in the books we have an inkling of text that would support the thesis that he was forced to go to Wall. Even his behavior speaks otherwise.

[khal drogon]

Selwyn Tarth might be the answer.

Any other has not done anything out of ordinary. I know a lot of answers will be Ned and Davos. But caring for their children and not being a bad father to them does not mean they deserve "Best Father" award. In Davos case he had neglected his sons because of his love for Stannis. Ned stupidly confronted Cersei about her incest without making sure his daughters were safe. So they are not without faults.

[Tijgy]

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Yes, he thought about it, but he only blurted it out while he was a drunk. It may easily have been that he thought about that as something he wanted to do when he was a man grown. The idea that he was ready to make such a decision as a fourteen-year-old can be attributed to him being drunk.

I agree that nobody ever states Jon Snow was forced to take the black in the books, but that's what's implied during the bedchamber conversation in AGoT. Jon Snow was stupid enough to come up with that idea himself, and Ned then decided - pressured by Catelyn and Luwin - that this is what Jon Snow would have to do. We don't know how the conversation between Ned and Jon went, but the impression I have from the Bran chapter and Jon later never even entertaining the notion of, say, living happily as a Stark bastard fostering with some other lord strongly implies that Ned didn't leave Jon any other choice to go through with his intention to go to the Wall. That in itself constitutes Jon Snow not really being free in this decision. Especially in light of the fact that Eddard Stark neither chose to tell Jon Snow the truth about the Night's Watch nor tell him the truth about his heritage and identity.

Jon Snow certainly was incapable of making an informed decision about his future, even if we assume Ned left it completely to him whether he wanted to go to the Wall or not. If there was a choice it most likely was between going to the Wall and leaving Winterfell (as Ned had it also made clear that he wouldn't take Jon with him to court).

What truth about the Night's Watch? Do you mean the perception of Tyrion? 

There is just a huge difference how the South and the North thinks about the Night's Watch. You have several mentions where the Northmen/First Men freely chose to become part of the Night's Watch (Benjen, Old Bear, Waymar Royce, ...). It doesn't mean because the South thinks it is solely a place where you can sent people you don't want that this also counts for the North. 

The North has a lot to thank to the Watch, they got always a place at Winterfell, the Lord Commander visited Lord Rickard Stark (probably to talk about the defenses; when Ben became part of the Night's Watch, he probably became the person who talked to Ned about the defenses, how to strengthen the Watch (resettlement of the Gift; ...) his own brother is part of the Night's Watch, ... 

The reason why Jon and the rest of the children might have any delusions about the Night's Watch is the fact they were honored by the Starks and the rest of the North. 

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, Tijgy said:

What truth about the Night's Watch? Do you mean the perception of Tyrion? 

There is just a huge difference how the South and the North thinks about the Night's Watch. You have several mentions where the Northmen/First Men freely chose to become part of the Night's Watch (Benjen, Old Bear, Waymar Royce, ...). It doesn't mean because the South thinks it is solely a place where you can sent people you don't want that this also counts for the North. 

The North has a lot to thank to the Watch, they got always a place at Winterfell, the Lord Commander visited Lord Rickard Stark (probably to talk about the defenses; when Ben became part of the Night's Watch, he probably became the person who talked to Ned about the defenses, how to strengthen the Watch (resettlement of the Gift; ...) his own brother is part of the Night's Watch, ... 

The reason why Jon and the rest of the children might have any delusions about the Night's Watch is the fact they were honored by the Starks and the rest of the North. 

I mean the truth that the brothers of the Night's Watch are almost exclusively unwashed criminals. For some reason the Starks failed to mention that to Jon Snow. And the North is clearly to blame as much for this development as the other regions since nothing suggests that the Starks or the other Northmen try to stop it by sending more noble volunteers to the Wall. It seems that the average Northman and the average Southron both are equally uninterested in joining the NW unless they are forced to.

There are no Umbers, Karstark, Bolton, Dustin, Glover, Ryswell, Manderly, Tallhart, etc. black brothers at the Wall we know of right now. And we would know if those people existed because they would be part of the leadership of the NW. Not to mention that there isn't even a Snow up there, not one noble Northern bastard who tried to make a career at the NW.

19 hours ago, Risto said:

But that doesn't make the decision has been made in the room. If Jon said "no", there is no argument Ned would make him go to Wall. Simply, Catelyn made it clear that if she is to stay alone in WF and take care of everybody, Jon is not her responsibility. So, the decision that Jon goes to Wall was made with his consent. 

The thing regarding things Martin didn't show us is either to make a point or simply because they are irrelevant. And this conversation falls into irrelevant category. I do believe that Ned had a conversation about NW with Jon. Ned's approach must have been "Benjen told me you would like to join NW' instead "You have to join NW" since there is nothing that would suggest us that Ned actually ordered Jon to go to Wall. Naturally, we all agree that Jon would have preferred to stay in WF but the decision to go to Wall was his and his alone.

Again, nowhere in the books we have an inkling of text that would support the thesis that he was forced to go to Wall. Even his behavior speaks otherwise.

The point is that there is no way a hint that Jon Snow had an alternative besides going to the Wall. After the conversation between Ned, Catelyn, and Luwin Winterfell no longer was his home. The idea of him fostering somewhere else never comes up - perhaps he had the choice between the Wall and becoming homeless? But that isn't a real choice at all, or is it?

The fact is that Jon Snow no longer had the choice between staying at Winterfell with his brothers or joining the Night's Watch. And since we don't know what Ned said to him it is entirely likely that Ned Stark did make it clear to him that he had either go to the Wall or fend for himself somewhere. Just go back and reread the bedchamber conversation. Ned, Catelyn, and Luwin decide Jon Snow's fate. And Ned makes it clear that he is going to tell Jon Snow what has been decided. There is no mention of him asking Jon whether he still wants to go to the Wall, or whether he wants to do something else entirely.

It is certainly possible that Jon Snow never really felt the fact that he had to go to the Wall because he still wanted to go. But the fact that Bran tells us he is angry and pissed on the day before they are all supposed to leave is a hint in another direction. Remember that Ned decided not to tell Jon Snow where he had to go until he felt he was ready. Because he wanted Jon to live some more happy days. This means the last conversation between Ned and Jon sort of went like that: 'Boy, in X days I'll go south to KL. In my absence, there is no place for you at Winterfell and I won't take you with me to court. I've been told that you want to join the NW. Very well. You'll leave for the Wall on the same day I leave. Have a nice day.'

I certainly want that the situation was different, but the actual conversation between Ned, Catelyn, and Luwin makes it clear that Jon's decision to go to the Wall - and the precise date when this was going to happen - was made for him, not by him.

[Mladen]

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I certainly want that the situation was different, but the actual conversation between Ned, Catelyn, and Luwin makes it clear that Jon's decision to go to the Wall - and the precise date when this was going to happen - was made for him, not by him.

The decision may have been made in the bedchamber, but the fact is that Jon chose it. Luwin didn't say "send him to Wall", but he said that Jon spoke to Benjen about going to Wall. Yes, Jon wasn't supposed to stay in WF anymore, but going to the Wall is, based on everything that is written (not added by the readers to the text) is that Jon wanted to go, decided to go and has gone on his own to Wall. 

So, yeah, he didn't have a choice, but he wasn't aware of it. Nowhere does he expresses some sort of resentment of being kicked out of WF, which is more than enough to conclude that the choice wasn't made for him, but by him. He made it independently of what has been said in bedchamber. 

[Lord Varys]

5 minutes ago, Risto said:

The decision may have been made in the bedchamber, but the fact is that Jon chose it. Luwin didn't say "send him to Wall", but he said that Jon spoke to Benjen about going to Wall. Yes, Jon wasn't supposed to stay in WF anymore, but going to the Wall is, based on everything that is written (not added by the readers to the text) is that Jon wanted to go, decided to go and has gone on his own to Wall. 

So, yeah, he didn't have a choice, but he wasn't aware of it. Nowhere does he expresses some sort of resentment of being kicked out of WF, which is more than enough to conclude that the choice wasn't made for him, but by him. He made it independently of what has been said in bedchamber. 

Well, but why was he then pissed in the second Bran chapter? For no reason at all or for a reason connected to the fact that he had to leave Winterfell now to go to the Wall?

And there are subtle hints of resentment throughout his chapters for being a bastard and not a true Stark. In fact, his whole wish to join the NW in the first place comes from that. It is no coincidence that he drunkenly blurts out that wish when he is not allowed to sit with the royal children at the high table. The whole first book is about Jon's issues with himself and his place in the world.

When he later reflects that he isn't technically forced to remain at the Wall and considers whether he should speak the vow he realizes that there is no place for him at Winterfell.

[Tijgy]

26 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I mean the truth that the brothers of the Night's Watch are almost exclusively unwashed criminals. For some reason the Starks failed to mention that to Jon Snow. And the North is clearly to blame as much for this development as the other regions since nothing suggests that the Starks or the other Northmen try to stop it by sending more noble volunteers to the Wall. It seems that the average Northman and the average Southron both are equally uninterested in joining the NW unless they are forced to.

There are no Umbers, Karstark, Bolton, Dustin, Glover, Ryswell, Manderly, Tallhart, etc. black brothers at the Wall we know of right now. And we would know if those people existed because they would be part of the leadership of the NW. Not to mention that there isn't even a Snow up there, not one noble Northern bastard who tried to make a career at the NW.

20 hours ago, Risto said:

(looking at only people who weren't sent at the Wall on grounds of criminal reasons/"treason"; and of course men who know of:)

But there is a Marsh, (recently) a Snow, a Stark, a Stout, Royce (house of FM - Yohn Royce actually went Waymar to the Wall to sent him off, his father gave expensive material to him - they were at least in the right color however they might not completely appropriate for ranging), a Tollett (house of FM), a Flint, a Locke and a Mormont - Why did they become member of the Night's Watch? According to you it was mostly Jon Snow. It is never said anyone of them joined the NW for a criminal reason/treason; Edd tells he joined the NW because Yoren told him the ladies liked the uniform, 

=> 7 men of the North, a Royce (great association with the North, First Men) and a Tollett

How many do we know from the rest of nobility who was not forced into the NW for a criminal reason/treason? You have a Mallister (Riverlands), Smallwood (Riverlands) a Pyke (Iron Islands), Buckwell , (stormlands) a Yarwyck (Westerlands), a Tarly (who was actually threw away by his dad - Reach), aemon (crownlands) and the last commander Qorgyle (dorne). 

=> the Riverlands have two noble member, Dorne, Iron Island, Stormlands, Westerlands, Crownlands all have one member. This is totally seven 

And who wins? It is the North!!!

Ned thought the Wall was important. It is not the fault of him the Wall declined in number. The first thing he said when he heard Robert came to Winterfell was to invite Benjen so Ben could tell him how the Night's Watch declined. Further he asked Robert to visit the Wall so he could see it for himself. Ben and Ned talked about the resettlement of the Gift. Before the Targaryens the Watch existed of 10 000 men; and in 300 years of Targaryen rule the Watch declined. 

I am not saying Ben and Ned did not knew the Watch was a shadow of what it used to be regarding the men, but that doesn't mean they did not thought it wasn't a noble cause. Like Qhorin says "We can only die. Why else do we don these black cloaks, but to die in defense of the realm." They both thought those men were still fighting for a noble cause, ... In one way the Night's Watch is a second chance for some men; there is even a talk about the fact how unfair it is that "some criminals" came to join them. 

The disillusion of Jon came after how Tyrion thought about the Night's Watch: oh, look, it are all rapers! Oh, no, you are going to fight against snarks and gremlins. But then you have Donal Noye talking about the unfairness of some people joining the Night's Watch. They are not all evil criminals. You have here actual Donal criticizing Jon's superior feeling over the rest of the men, while Jon actually became part of the Night's Watch because he believes everyone can rise high there - which should include the peasants. You have then Qhorin "We can only die. Why else do we don these black cloaks, but to die in defense of the realm." Piece by piece, it is actually show it is Tyrion who is wrong about it.

[Lord Varys]

25 minutes ago, Tijgy said:

(looking at only people who weren't sent at the Wall on grounds of criminal reasons/"treason"; and of course men who know of:)

But there is a Marsh, (recently) a Snow, a Stark, a Stout, Royce (house of FM - Yohn Royce actually went Waymar to the Wall to sent him off, his father gave expensive material to him - they were at least in the right color however they might not completely appropriate for ranging), a Tollett (house of FM), a Flint, a Locke and a Mormont - Why did they become member of the Night's Watch? According to you it was mostly Jon Snow. It is never said anyone of them joined the NW for a criminal reason/treason; Edd tells he joined the NW because Yoren told him the ladies liked the uniform, 

=> 7 men of the North, a Royce (great association with the North, First Men) and a Tollett

How many do we know from the rest of nobility who was not forced into the NW for a criminal reason/treason? You have a Mallister (Riverlands), Smallwood (Riverlands) a Pyke (Iron Islands), Buckwell , (stormlands) a Yarwyck (Westerlands), a Tarly (who was actually threw away by his dad - Reach), aemon (crownlands) and the last commander Qorgyle (dorne). 

=> the Riverlands have two noble member, Dorne, Iron Island, Stormlands, Westerlands, Crownlands all have one member. This is totally seven 

And who wins? It is the North!!!

Ned thought the Wall was important. It is not the fault of him the Wall declined in number. The first thing he said when he heard Robert came to Winterfell was to invite Benjen so Ben could tell him how the Night's Watch declined. Further he asked Robert to visit the Wall so he could see it for himself. Ben and Ned talked about the resettlement of the Gift. Before the Targaryens the Watch existed of 10 000 men; and in 300 years of Targaryen rule the Watch declined. 

I am not saying Ben and Ned did not knew the Watch was a shadow of what it used to be regarding the men, but that doesn't mean they did not thought it wasn't a noble cause. Like Qhorin says "We can only die. Why else do we don these black cloaks, but to die in defense of the realm." They both thought those men were still fighting for a noble cause, ... In one way the Night's Watch is a second chance for some men; there is even a talk about the fact how unfair it is that "some criminals" came to join them. 

The disillusion of Jon came after how Tyrion thought about the Night's Watch: oh, look, it are all rapers! Oh, no, you are going to fight against snarks and gremlins. But then you have Donal Noye talking about the unfairness of some people joining the Night's Watch. They are not all evil criminals. You have here actual Donal criticizing Jon's superior feeling over the rest of the men, while Jon actually became part of the Night's Watch because he believes everyone can rise high there - which should include the peasants. You have then Qhorin "We can only die. Why else do we don these black cloaks, but to die in defense of the realm." Piece by piece, it is actually show it is Tyrion who is wrong about it.

I'm very aware that there are some noble names among the NW. But there are no names of great northern houses aside from the Starks in the NW (the Mormonts aren't exactly a great northern house).

The Royces are an old and traditional house but there are hints that Bronze Yohn either cannot afford feeding his spare sons, or is not willing to. Waymar is shipped off to the NW, and Robar is forced to leave the Vale to make a name of himself, eventually joining King Renly.

That makes Waymar look as if Yohn just found a convenient way to get rid of another mouth to feed. And how Dolorous Edd ended at the Wall isn't even clear. The Tolletts (or only he) could have chosen the wrong side during the Rebellion, after all.

And of course it is also the failure of the Starks and the Northmen in general that the NW declined. They are closest to the Wall, and therefore they have the greatest interest in supporting the NW. But the NW still declined, so either they did not everything they could to support it or they failed. While it is quite possible/likely that the Northmen closest to the Wall support the NW as best they can with provisions and stuff, it remains a fact that as a whole the elite of the Northmen has better things to do than to send their younger sons and brothers to the NW. Else there would be Boltons, Manderlys, Karstarks, Umbers, Dustins, Ryswells, Glovers, etc. all over the place at the Wall. But they are not, and that's a fact.

Hell, even the average old uncles who cannot reasonably hope to inherit a lordship prefer warming their feet at the fires of their lordly nephews rather than doing the honorable thing and join the NW in their old age (e.g. Arnolf Karstark and his sons, Whoresbane and Crowfood Umber). Jeor Mormont is an exception, and not the rule.

And we also have no idea whether the likes of Bowen Marsh, Wynton Stout, and the other noble officer went to the Wall of their own free will. We certainly know for a fact that the future Lord Commander Brynden Rivers didn't go there because he wanted to...

Of course, Jon Snow eventually comes around understanding what the NW is supposed to mean. But the fact remains that many of his brothers are (and remain) scum, leading to murder of the Old Bear. That is a problem, and Tyrion certainly is correct in that regard. The occasional nice guy - Sam, Green, Pyp, etc. - doesn't mean that the bulk of the NW are nice or honest people. They are not. They are scum. Just look at the likes of Rast, Chett, Ollo Lophand, Dirk, etc.

[Ashur]

On 29/1/2016 at 4:25 AM, Little Lark said:

We're talking about a man that regularly abused his son and then threatened to kill him unless he took the black. Sam grew up to be a complete coward whose self-esteem was lower than dirt. It's only when he befriends Jon that he begins to develop a sense of self. Sam still has a long way to go but clearly Randyll's parenting technique wasn't working.

Agreed. Sam has a very problematic upbringing. The combination of an stric, harsh father and a loving, spoiling mother is a very bad one, specially for fearful, shy children.

I think parentage in Dorne is quite permisive while providing children with independece and self-awareness. It's not just Oberyn and the Sand Snakes, but every dornish youngster that we came to know. Only Dalt is a bit spoiled IMO. Dornish make good parents, it seems.

Anyway, probably Selwyn Tarth is the most forgiving, understanding parent that we came to know in the books.