Something about Dyanna Dayne

[purple-eyes]

All Dayne are quite interesting.

Lady dyanna dayne was wife of maekar. They married young. 

Maekar was born between 174-178. Dyanna died between 201 and 209. And maekar died in 233. 

So for around 30 years, Maekar did not remarry! And he was king for about 12 years. And he was only around 30 when Dyanna died. 

Is this a love match like tywin's case? So maekar loved his wife so deeply that he did not want to remarry? For 30 years? 

But maekar is after all a king, it is rare to see a widowed king would not take a second wife when he was still quite young. 

Or Grrm just did not bother to give maekar another wife? 

By the way, dyanna dayne likely have brown hair and maybe sallow skin since daeron is like this and maekar had targ look. 

[Fat Mac]

There was likely absolutely no pressure for Maekar to remarry.

If Dyanna died before 209, Daeron II, Baelor, his sons, Aerys, Rhaegel and his children were all alive. Add to that Maekar had four sons of his own by then. They probably wouldn't have wanted him to remarry. Way too many Targs already.

Maekar strikes me as a Stannis type individual, prone to brooding. Sex and love probably isn't a very big part of their life. 

[The Dragon has three heads]

However, his marriage and the subsequent ascension of argon V means that ever since this marriage the targa have had Dayne blood, through the matrilineal line.

Most of the good stuff (warging, dragon hatching capability) comes through the female line.

The Daynes are going to become very important.  I quite sure of it.

[purple-eyes]

3 minutes ago, The Dragon has three heads said:

However, his marriage and the subsequent ascension of argon V means that ever since this marriage the targa have had Dayne blood, through the matrilineal line.

Most of the good stuff (warging, dragon hatching capability) comes through the female line.

The Daynes are going to become very important.  I quite sure of it.

Warging you mean bloodraven? 

But stark children's Warging all from father line. 

And reed children's power seem to be from male line too. 

And we are not sure if aenys is bastard of rhaenys and a singer. 

 

[Shuvuuia]

1 hour ago, Fat Mac said:

There was likely absolutely no pressure for Maekar to remarry.

If Dyanna died before 209, Daeron II, Baelor, his sons, Aerys, Rhaegel and his children were all alive. Add to that Maekar had four sons of his own by then. They probably wouldn't have wanted him to remarry. Way too many Targs already.

Maekar strikes me as a Stannis type individual, prone to brooding. Sex and love probably isn't a very big part of their life. 

Judging by the size of their brood,  Maekar wasn't averse to sex (and there was no pressure for him to have so many kids, actually it was considered kind of a problem with too many dragons).

And while there are obvious similarities between Maekar and Stannis, there are differences as well - even the fact that Stannis is a case of the middle child syndrome plus with the traumatic death of his parents, while Maekar is the youngest of the four and at least his father was alive long enough (and gave him his own seat!). I can totally see Maekar being like Tywin in regard of the marriage.

[purple-eyes]

22 minutes ago, Shuvuuia said:

Judging by the size of their brood,  Maekar wasn't averse to sex (and there was no pressure for him to have so many kids, actually it was considered kind of a problem with too many dragons).

And while there are obvious similarities between Maekar and Stannis, there are differences as well - even the fact that Stannis is a case of the middle child syndrome plus with the traumatic death of his parents, while Maekar is the youngest of the four and at least his father was alive long enough (and gave him his own seat!). I can totally see Maekar being like Tywin in regard of the marriage.(edit: loving his wife and not remarying , not having sex with prostitutes)

I thought tywin indeed visited brothels and he built that pass to chataya.......

[The Dragon has three heads]

41 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

Warging you mean bloodraven? 

But stark children's Warging all from father line. 

And reed children's power seem to be from male line too. 

And we are not sure if aenys is bastard of rhaenys and a singer. 

 

Are you sure about that? There's absolutely no way to 100% prove either way, but, I doubt given The genetic mapping of the targ blood lines that it's the male line that gives any power.  

It's the X chromosome that is likely tied to dragon hatching so I see no reason why the X wouldn't be used in warging.  Brynden Rivers Mother was a blackwood.  Catalyns mother or grand mother was a lothstone or blackWood iirc.

 

and if Danny's mother is lyanna....we'll you see where im going.

[Shuvuuia]

20 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

I thought tywin indeed visited brothels and he built that pass to chataya.......

oops, my english is super bad in the morning. I meant Maekar could've loved his wife, like Tywin loved his wife. But he (likely) didn't frequent the brothels, unlike Tywin. idk, I can't phrase it...

(Maekar=maybe loves his wife, probably doesn't frequent prostitutes.

Tywin=loves his wife, does sleep with prostitutes, lol)

[Hippocras]

3 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

Warging you mean bloodraven? 

But stark children's Warging all from father line. 

And reed children's power seem to be from male line too. 

And we are not sure if aenys is bastard of rhaenys and a singer. 

 

Not really for the Stark kids. Recent Stark cousin marriages make them Starks on male and female side not so far back, and the Tullys have lots of Blackwood blood, so passed on via Cat.

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

The Stark children could have gotten their warging from their father's or mother's side. Same for Jon, funny enough. Though it is interesting how only one sibling of Ned's generation is said to have "wolf's blood."

And Maekar's mother was a Martell, so we really don't know about Dyanna hair color.

[Lord Varys]

Maekar's general grumpiness certainly could have been partially caused by the early loss of his wife. The whole thing could have been a love match (or Maekar fell very much in love with his wife after he first met her). The number of children certainly could be a hint that Dyanna and Maekar enjoyed having sex. Very few Targaryens have six living children, after all.

Maekar never remarrying certainly is a hint that he did not want to take another wife. Whether he had any mistresses/paramours as king remains to be seen, I'd not be surprised to learn that Egg and Aemon had quite a few bastard siblings...

I personally think that remarriages became a taboo among the Targaryens after Alicent Hightower. The only other Targaryen monarch taking a second wife after his previous wife had died was the boy king Aegon III, and he did not have any children by Jaehaera Targaryen when she died.

Viserys II also did not take a new wife after Larra Rogare died (she died a few years after she had returned to Lys) despite living for decades after her death. This also suggest that a second marriage wasn't very popular. While it is true that Viserys was very much in love with his wife, it is very unlikely that his eyes never felt on a woman who could win his heart. He was a royal prince, did serve as Hand for decades, and eventually became king.

Maekar also was king for twelve years, a royal prince his entire life, and Prince of Dragonstone for a couple of years. Many a lord would have dreamed about marrying his maiden daughter to the widowed king, and one assumes that Maekar had to interact with many a lord's beautiful daughter during his reign and life at court. Staying unmarried must have been a hard decision, and would most likely not have happened if it hadn't been part of the dynastic policy. The idea that neither Viserys nor Maekar had intimate relationships after their wives died is pretty unlikely if you ask me.

[purple-eyes]

7 hours ago, The Dragon has three heads said:

Are you sure about that? There's absolutely no way to 100% prove either way, but, I doubt given The genetic mapping of the targ blood lines that it's the male line that gives any power.  

It's the X chromosome that is likely tied to dragon hatching so I see no reason why the X wouldn't be used in warging.  Brynden Rivers Mother was a blackwood.  Catalyns mother or grand mother was a lothstone or blackWood iirc.

 

and if Danny's mother is lyanna....we'll you see where im going.

GRRM's genetics work differently from ours. 

Nowhere said minisa Whent is a backwood or lothstan. 

When Cersei's children were investigated, it was "seed is strong". 

And if jon will do something about dragon, this should be from male line. 

Aegon ii and his siblings and children also hatched dragons, this is from viserys, not their hightower mother. 

And no, dany can not be child of lyanna. 

 

 

[purple-eyes]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Maekar's general grumpiness certainly could have been partially caused by the early loss of his wife. The whole thing could have been a love match (or Maekar fell very much in love with his wife after he first met her). The number of children certainly could be a hint that Dyanna and Maekar enjoyed having sex. Very few Targaryens have six living children, after all.

Maekar never remarrying certainly is a hint that he did not want to take another wife. Whether he had any mistresses/paramours as king remains to be seen, I'd not be surprised to learn that Egg and Aemon had quite a few bastard siblings...

I personally think that remarriages became a taboo among the Targaryens after Alicent Hightower. The only other Targaryen monarch taking a second wife after his previous wife had died was the boy king Aegon III, and he did not have any children by Jaehaera Targaryen when she died.

Viserys II also did not take a new wife after Larra Rogare died (she died a few years after she had returned to Lys) despite living for decades after her death. This also suggest that a second marriage wasn't very popular. While it is true that Viserys was very much in love with his wife, it is very unlikely that his eyes never felt on a woman who could win his heart. He was a royal prince, did serve as Hand for decades, and eventually became king.

Maekar also was king for twelve years, a royal prince his entire life, and Prince of Dragonstone for a couple of years. Many a lord would have dreamed about marrying his maiden daughter to the widowed king, and one assumes that Maekar had to interact with many a lord's beautiful daughter during his reign and life at court. Staying unmarried must have been a hard decision, and would most likely not have happened if it hadn't been part of the dynastic policy. The idea that neither Viserys nor Maekar had intimate relationships after their wives died is pretty unlikely if you ask me.

Very Interesting. 

I always feel king as a ruler, should keep a queen. Maybe not for his personal need, but for the need of the country. Even nowadays, we rarely see a single ruler for a large realm. A queen is needed to hold certain responsibilies in the court and realm. 

Maybe he did not want to have more true born children to cause conflicts? Scared by blackfyre? If he married, then he would have more children since there are still 30 years for marriage. 

[purple-eyes]

4 hours ago, Victarion Chainbreaker said:

The Stark children could have gotten their warging from their father's or mother's side. Same for Jon, funny enough. Though it is interesting how only one sibling of Ned's generation is said to have "wolf's blood."

And Maekar's mother was a Martell, so we really don't know about Dyanna hair color.

Martell has black hair. Daeron is sandy brown. 

So I guess this is from dyanna. 

 

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

36 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

Martell has black hair. Daeron is sandy brown. 

So I guess this is from dyanna. 

I'm white and my wife is chinese. Our daughter has sandy brown/dirty blond hair. Daeron's haircolor could absolutely have come from a black-haired grandmother.

[Queen Alienor]

Well, Maekar alraedy had four sons (Daeron, Aerion, Aemon and Egg) and two daughters (Rhae and Daella are mentioned, possibly there are more, but I'm not sure there) and was himself the forth son of the king. I don't think there was any sort of pressure on him to remarry, given that we know that "too many Targaryens are as dangerous as too few".

That does not preclude Maekar/Dyanna from having been a love match, it just means that there would probably not have been any expectation for him to remarry.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

6 hours ago, Victarion Chainbreaker said:

The Stark children could have gotten their warging from their father's or mother's side. Same for Jon, funny enough. Though it is interesting how only one sibling of Ned's generation is said to have "wolf's blood."

Ned tells Arya that Lyanna had a touch of it, and Brandon more than a touch.  I don't know that he's referring to anything as mystical as warging, though. He describes it as a "wildness" about their characters. I think it would have taken a long month of Sundays to convince Ned Stark that his kids could spiritually inhabit stuff.  

[Anath]

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Maekar's general grumpiness certainly could have been partially caused by the early loss of his wife. The whole thing could have been a love match (or Maekar fell very much in love with his wife after he first met her). The number of children certainly could be a hint that Dyanna and Maekar enjoyed having sex. Very few Targaryens have six living children, after all.

Maekar never remarrying certainly is a hint that he did not want to take another wife. Whether he had any mistresses/paramours as king remains to be seen, I'd not be surprised to learn that Egg and Aemon had quite a few bastard siblings...

I personally think that remarriages became a taboo among the Targaryens after Alicent Hightower. The only other Targaryen monarch taking a second wife after his previous wife had died was the boy king Aegon III, and he did not have any children by Jaehaera Targaryen when she died.

Viserys II also did not take a new wife after Larra Rogare died (she died a few years after she had returned to Lys) despite living for decades after her death. This also suggest that a second marriage wasn't very popular. While it is true that Viserys was very much in love with his wife, it is very unlikely that his eyes never felt on a woman who could win his heart. He was a royal prince, did serve as Hand for decades, and eventually became king.

Maekar also was king for twelve years, a royal prince his entire life, and Prince of Dragonstone for a couple of years. Many a lord would have dreamed about marrying his maiden daughter to the widowed king, and one assumes that Maekar had to interact with many a lord's beautiful daughter during his reign and life at court. Staying unmarried must have been a hard decision, and would most likely not have happened if it hadn't been part of the dynastic policy. The idea that neither Viserys nor Maekar had intimate relationships after their wives died is pretty unlikely if you ask me.

Pretty much this.

The similarities between Viserys II and Maekar are quite pronounced. Both started out as being born virtually the last ones in the lines of many older brothers between them and the IT, yet they both ended up taking it. Viserys is said to have been quite charming as young and while I doubt Maekar was ever this way, it's just my opinion unsupported by any facts either way. And it doesn't matter because Viserys was not yet 20 when he started turning into the proto-Maekar, aka stern to the boot. Both lost their wives young. IMO, Viserys was blind to what his son Aegon was for a long time because my impression of him is that he would have started looking for a way to pack him off to the Wall or install him comfortably in Essos, safely away from Westeros to keep Westeros safe from him. But instead, he wed him to Naerys, perhaps thinking it was just youthful exuberance. Maekar was similarly blind to Aerion's faults. People said Aegon poisoned his father because he was eager to get the throne. Personally, I think Aerion's wildfire moment was driven by his fear that Maekar was trying to get him supplanted in the succession. That's just a hunch of mine, though, that he was trying to win points in the big game by becoming a big dragon. Daeron might have been a drunkard, a whorelover and whatnot but he was not malicious. I don't think he would have stopped a Small Council from ruling well. Aerion, though, would have always wanted to have things his way, so with Daeron's death things became really tight. My guess is that Aegon was similarly driven because Viserys was trying to bypass him for Daeron. Viserys was rumoured to have killed Baelor and Maekar was considered by some to have intentionally killed "his" Baelor. Both served the Iron Throne before ascending it and did a pretty good job, probably embodying what Varys said about Aegon - that the throne was duty first and foremost.

In this vein of thought, Dyanna Dayne is an interesting choice for Maekar's wife. Sure, not all members of one family are alike, just look at Cat and Lysa. But the Daynes are a family that simply oozes romantics. Ashara is said to be one of the most beautiful ladies at court. I think Dyanna was something like Larra Rogare in beauty and charm (and probably "enjoying" a great unpopularity at court by being basically a foreigner) and her loss might have shocked Maekar the way Larra's did Viserys, ehnancing the similarities.

She might have had dark hair. I doubt about the skin, though. I think Daeron's complexion was just unhealthy, being part wine and part terrible dreams.

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

Very Interesting. 

I always feel king as a ruler, should keep a queen. Maybe not for his personal need, but for the need of the country. Even nowadays, we rarely see a single ruler for a large realm. A queen is needed to hold certain responsibilies in the court and realm. 

Maybe he did not want to have more true born children to cause conflicts? Scared by blackfyre? If he married, then he would have more children since there are still 30 years for marriage. 

We know from Ellyn Reyne that the wives of heirs can step into the role of the lady of a castle if the lord's wife is deceased. Maekar may have had quite a few widowed sisters-in-law (Jena Dondarrion, Aelinor Penrose, Alys Arryn) as well as at least one presumably suitable daughter-in-law who could play the role of the queen (Kiera of Tyrosh, the wife of Prince Daeron, who previously was married to another Prince of Dragonstone, Valarr).

If Maekar ended up taking a second wife there is a good chance that he actually married his sister-in-law and cousin Aelinor Penrose to allow her to officially continue in her role as queen. That would have been nice and would have shown some continuity. Aelinor may already have been beyond childbearing age in 221 AC anyway.

We also know the Targaryens were close to another Dance when Maekar died suddenly in 233 AC. Bloodraven prevented that with the Great Council, but if we assume that Aerys I had eventually fathered a son and/or if Rhaegel and eventually Aelor had ruled, then there really would have been too many Targaryen princes around, eventually causing a civil war. And that could then have been the ideal opening for a successful Blackfyre rebellion. In that sense, I'd not be surprised if Aerys I deliberately decided to not father an heir after he rose to the throne. Granted, he wouldn't have been very inclined to do so as a prince, but people expect sons from a married king, so that was odd. But from a dynastic point of view it may have made sense to him and Bloodraven.

2 hours ago, Anath said:

Pretty much this.

The similarities between Viserys II and Maekar are quite pronounced. Both started out as being born virtually the last ones in the lines of many older brothers between them and the IT, yet they both ended up taking it. Viserys is said to have been quite charming as young and while I doubt Maekar was ever this way, it's just my opinion unsupported by any facts either way. And it doesn't matter because Viserys was not yet 20 when he started turning into the proto-Maekar, aka stern to the boot. Both lost their wives young. IMO, Viserys was blind to what his son Aegon was for a long time because my impression of him is that he would have started looking for a way to pack him off to the Wall or install him comfortably in Essos, safely away from Westeros to keep Westeros safe from him. But instead, he wed him to Naerys, perhaps thinking it was just youthful exuberance. Maekar was similarly blind to Aerion's faults. People said Aegon poisoned his father because he was eager to get the throne. Personally, I think Aerion's wildfire moment was driven by his fear that Maekar was trying to get him supplanted in the succession. That's just a hunch of mine, though, that he was trying to win points in the big game by becoming a big dragon. Daeron might have been a drunkard, a whorelover and whatnot but he was not malicious. I don't think he would have stopped a Small Council from ruling well. Aerion, though, would have always wanted to have things his way, so with Daeron's death things became really tight. My guess is that Aegon was similarly driven because Viserys was trying to bypass him for Daeron. Viserys was rumoured to have killed Baelor and Maekar was considered by some to have intentionally killed "his" Baelor. Both served the Iron Throne before ascending it and did a pretty good job, probably embodying what Varys said about Aegon - that the throne was duty first and foremost.

In this vein of thought, Dyanna Dayne is an interesting choice for Maekar's wife. Sure, not all members of one family are alike, just look at Cat and Lysa. But the Daynes are a family that simply oozes romantics. Ashara is said to be one of the most beautiful ladies at court. I think Dyanna was something like Larra Rogare in beauty and charm (and probably "enjoying" a great unpopularity at court by being basically a foreigner) and her loss might have shocked Maekar the way Larra's did Viserys, ehnancing the similarities.

She might have had dark hair. I doubt about the skin, though. I think Daeron's complexion was just unhealthy, being part wine and part terrible dreams.

My personal guess is that Maekar's marriage grew out of Dyanna's presence at court. Mariah Martell brought many people with her to court, and it is is not difficult to imagine that one of her ladies-in-waiting was either Dyanna Dayne herself, or her mother. From there it is not all that difficult to imagine how that marriage was arranged. And if Dyanna was about Maekar's age and they sort of grew up together this could have been a real love match, possibly the only one Daeron II allowed his sons.

Speculation about Maekar's relationship to his sons during his reign is very difficult. We just know too little about all that, especially not about Aerion's development. My gut feeling is that Maekar may not have been too happy with Egg's reform ideas, leaning a little bit more in Aerion's direction before the latter's death. If Egg had been his father's favorite in the end he would most likely have been Prince of Dragonstone in 233 AC, and then there would have been little to no need for a Great Council.

[Anath]

Aerys deliberately refraining from fathering an heir is an interesting idea but I am not sure it can hold. If Rhaegel was sane, yes, it would be a good option, perhaps. But he was not. And his children were, well, children as Ser Kyle the Cat says. From the Great Council after Maekar's death we know that fears of the father's madness repeating in the child are taken seriously. Aerys and Bloodraven had no way to know that Aelor would grow up sane.

I quite agree with your queen hypothesis. In addition, one of Maekar's daughter could play the first lady at his court. There was no need for him to remarry and in fact, it would be unwise to take a fertile wife. If he remarried, a woman past her childbearing years could be a better choice.

While Maekar might not be big on Aegon's reforms, at the time Aegon had not made them, although he was perhaps showing signs of his intentions that his family would see. But Aegon wasn't Maekar's only option other than Aerion. Aemon could be released from his oaths. Even Daella, if she were alive at the time, could have been preferred over Aegon if Aerion got bypassed and Aemon was a maester. Daella was older than Aegon. (I know your theory about this bringing her close in age to Dunk but at the moment, it's just a theory.) Maekar was a Dornish woman's son and another one's husband. He might have been inclined to make the realm accept his daughter instead of sons who harboured dangerous ideas, each in his own way. If Aegon didn't change from the time of the three novellas, he wouldn't engage in a Dance of Dragons out of yearning for the throne since he didn't cover it anyway. With Aerion out of the way, things might have gotten smooth - or at least Maekar and Bloodraven might have thought they could force it down everyone's throat because neither expected Maekar to die in an uprising and they thought they had time to make people get used to it. If so, Daella might have chosen not to press any claims either because she didnt have any ground to stand by since at the time of her father's death the females behid males still stood and she coudn't cite her father's intention as her reasoning (I imagine the scene, a young woman trying to convince the Great Council that "yes, my lord father truly wanted me to succeed him. Proof? I have none. But you must believe me anyway, he did!") or because she never truly wanted the ugly chair. Any of those options - Aemon, Daella, or Aegon being preferred over him - or even the thought that they might be options - might have prompted Aerion into making the final step. Anyway, that's just a hunch of mine.