GRRM didn't seem to think Joffrey was a psychopath, just a classic bully

[thelittledragonthatcould]

1 minute ago, Knight Of Winter said:

Feel free to replace "teenager" with "6 year olds" in my original post - and my point will still stand.

It really would not. Most 5/6 year olds would know it was wrong because their parents had told them so. Joffrey had two shitty parents who did not give him the same teaching. This is pretty much a parental failing.

Now personally, I'm against hunting for sport. Why is Robert hunting and killing wild animals perfectly acceptable but Joffrey doing the same to stray animals in the city not OK? And how exactly should a 5 or 6 year old know this if his parents refuse to teach him?

[SeanF]

WRT hunting, in Westeros, people hunt:-

1. Animals that can fight back, like wolves, aurochs, bears and boar.  Fighting any such creature is a real test of skill and courage.

2. Predators (see 1) or

3.  For food.  Boar, stags, and other game are generally eaten.

Hunting is done to get food, to kill predators, and to hone military skills.  The average hunter would certainly regard cutting open the pregnant kitchen cat as disgusting.

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

4 minutes ago, SeanF said:

WRT hunting, in Westeros, people hunt:-

1. Animals that can fight back, like wolves, aurochs, bears and boar.  Fighting any such creature is a real test of skill and courage.

2. Predators (see 1) or

3.  For food.  Boar, stags, and other game are generally eaten.

Hunting is done to get food, to kill predators, and to hone military skills.  The average hunter would certainly regard cutting open the pregnant kitchen cat as disgusting.

 

The average hunter not being 5 or 6 years of age.

His father brings back his kill to parade and that is pretty much what the young Joffrey did:

One told the boy that she had kittens in her belly, thinking he might want one. Joffrey opened up the poor thing with a dagger to see if it were true. When he found the kittens, he brought them to show to his father.

Obviously it is wrong, but expecting a child that age to just know that is ridiculous, especially when he lives in a world were hunting, killing and butchering animals is something he will have seen.

[Knight Of Winter]

Personally I find any killing of an animal for reasons other than food or self-defense to be abhorring. However, that's my 21st century view, while Westeorosi view (which Joffrey lives in and which Joffrey chould be judged according to), considers hunting fine and killing stray cats not. I can't know their reasons, although SeanF offers some nice possibilities in the post above.

About Joffrey not being taught - really? My bet is that most children would realize that causing lethal pain on a innocent animal which resists every way possible is wrong. Most of them would stop, and even if some would proceed, they would understand they did something wrong. They wouldn't certainly boast around with their accomplishment.

Joffrey is different - he sees nothing wrong with it. And even after getting slapped across his face by Robert, do we see that his behaviour has changed? When we read AGOT, ACOK and ASOS, do we see Joffrey who avoids causing pain, is considerate towards others, and who generally behaves himself in a way that most 12 year olds behave? No, he's still sadistic little shit.

[SeanF]

9 minutes ago, Knight Of Winter said:

Personally I find any killing of an animal for reasons other than food or self-defense to be abhorring. However, that's my 21st century view, while Westeorosi view (which Joffrey lives in and which Joffrey chould be judged according to), considers hunting fine and killing stray cats not. I can't know their reasons, although SeanF offers some nice possibilities in the post above.

About Joffrey not being taught - really? My bet is that most children would realize that causing lethal pain on a innocent animal which resists every way possible is wrong. Most of them would stop, and even if some would proceed, they would understand they did something wrong. They wouldn't certainly boast around with their accomplishment.

Joffrey is different - he sees nothing wrong with it. And even after getting slapped across his face by Robert, do we see that his behaviour has changed? When we read AGOT, ACOK and ASOS, do we see Joffrey who avoids causing pain, is considerate towards others, and who generally behaves himself in a way that most 12 year olds behave? No, he's still sadistic little shit.

Although venison and boar  would be  prestige foods, (rabbit, hare, and ducks would probably be hunted by all classes), there are probably times of the year, and places, where hunting game is a crucial source of food.

[Kaguya]

21 minutes ago, Knight Of Winter said:

Personally I find any killing of an animal for reasons other than food or self-defense to be abhorring. However, that's my 21st century view, while Westeorosi view (which Joffrey lives in and which Joffrey chould be judged according to), considers hunting fine and killing stray cats not. I can't know their reasons, although SeanF offers some nice possibilities in the post above.

About Joffrey not being taught - really? My bet is that most children would realize that causing lethal pain on a innocent animal which resists every way possible is wrong. Most of them would stop, and even if some would proceed, they would understand they did something wrong. They wouldn't certainly boast around with their accomplishment.

Joffrey is different - he sees nothing wrong with it. And even after getting slapped across his face by Robert, do we see that his behaviour has changed? When we read AGOT, ACOK and ASOS, do we see Joffrey who avoids causing pain, is considerate towards others, and who generally behaves himself in a way that most 12 year olds behave? No, he's still sadistic little shit.

Is there textual evidence that Joffrey didn't regret the cat incident? 

 

And of of course he was still a brat as a teenager. He was Cersei Lannisters prince. I don't need to go into detail, as I already posted a quote by him a few pages back. I'm sure you'll understand.

[Lord Varys]

Killing animals for sport (and killing animals for meat) can both be considered abominable. We long happen to live in a civilization (worldwide, I might add) in which we could easily continue living without ever so much killing a fellow mammal or even a fellow vertebrate.

But large portions of humanity pretty much don't care about that.

The idea that it is better to off a pig or a bull 'in battle' or with a hunting rifle instead in a meat factory doesn't make much sense. From our modern POV one can make a case that eating exclusively game meat is morally better considering that those animals didn't have to go through the insanity of the meat industry but live instead a more or less 'happy natural life' (until the bullet hits them, of course).

Modern psychopathy tests include animal cruelty and stuff but we have to see that in context. Westeros is a society in which animal cruelty is actually a quite common thing, so it is hardly a correct means to test you if something is wrong with your empathy.

A prince torturing some kittens wouldn't alarm anyone in this world. A prince torturing smallfolk might.

But thinking about the cat incident again it seems as if Joff wanted kittens, and actually thought he might be able to get one if he cut that cat open. Did he know what he was doing? Did he already know about death being final and all? We don't really know. He seemed to have not understood that he should wait until the cat dropped the kittens instead of cutting them out.

If we diagnose Joff with psychopathy is then Arya a psychopath, too? Unlike Joffrey she has begun to murder people casually without so much as thinking about it. Joff never killed anyone with his own hands - the point George tries to get across with him is that it is insanely stupid to give a young boy absolute power. Joff is testing what he can do. Telling somebody to kill a person you don't like is so much easier than actually doing it, and quite a lot of people would do so if they could get away with it. Especially adolescent boys.

[Cas Stark]

What's the excuse for Joff's abuse of Tommen?  Is this more boys will be boys stuff?

"The world is full of horrors, Tommen. You can fight them, or laugh at them, or look without seeing...go away inside." Tommen considered that. "I...used to go away inside sometimes," he confessed, "when Joffy..." [Interrupted by Cersei] (AFFC Jamie I)

[Kaguya]

38 minutes ago, SeanF said:

WRT hunting, in Westeros, people hunt:-

1. Animals that can fight back, like wolves, aurochs, bears and boar.  Fighting any such creature is a real test of skill and courage.

2. Predators (see 1) or

3.  For food.  Boar, stags, and other game are generally eaten.

Hunting is done to get food, to kill predators, and to hone military skills.  The average hunter would certainly regard cutting open the pregnant kitchen cat as disgusting.

 

I'm in agreement with thelittledragon 

 

Killing an Animal is killing an Animal. Use the coddling term "hunting" all you want to justify it as less evil, but both Robert and Joffrey were doing the same thing.

[Cas Stark]

15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Killing animals for sport (and killing animals for meat) can both be considered abominable. We long happen to live in a civilization (worldwide, I might add) in which we could easily continue living without ever so much killing a fellow mammal or even a fellow vertebrate.

But large portions of humanity pretty much don't care about that.

The idea that it is better to off a pig or a bull 'in battle' or with a hunting rifle instead in a meat factory doesn't make much sense. From our modern POV one can make a case that eating exclusively game meat is morally better considering that those animals didn't have to go through the insanity of the meat industry but live instead a more or less 'happy natural life' (until the bullet hits them, of course).

Modern psychopathy tests include animal cruelty and stuff but we have to see that in context. Westeros is a society in which animal cruelty is actually a quite common thing, so it is hardly a correct means to test you if something is wrong with your empathy.

A prince torturing some kittens wouldn't alarm anyone in this world. A prince torturing smallfolk might.

But thinking about the cat incident again it seems as if Joff wanted kittens, and actually thought he might be able to get one if he cut that cat open. Did he know what he was doing? Did he already know about death being final and all? We don't really know. He seemed to have not understood that he should wait until the cat dropped the kittens instead of cutting them out.

If we diagnose Joff with psychopathy is then Arya a psychopath, too? Unlike Joffrey she has begun to murder people casually without so much as thinking about it. Joff never killed anyone with his own hands - the point George tries to get across with him is that it is insanely stupid to give a young boy absolute power. Joff is testing what he can do. Telling somebody to kill a person you don't like is so much easier than actually doing it, and quite a lot of people would do so if they could get away with it. Especially adolescent boys.

It did, though.  It alarmed his father, a committed hunter.  Thus, it's reasonable to assume that it was not normal and that the manner of the cat's death was not normal, e.g. it wasn't a quick kill.

And then there is the quote I posted above about Tommen going away when Joff.....

[Yuki_no_JonI]

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The other boys aren't Crown Princes and Kings as twelve/thirteen-year-olds. And Robb does change considerably after he becomes king, refusing to listen to any counsel aside from that he wants to listen to do.

Not to mention that the other boys you cite all had attentive and caring parents as far as we know and/or where never groomed to rule/lead anyway. Tommen and Myrcella are younger children and would have been treated much differently than Joff. Myrcella was a girl and thus raised to passive and meek, and Tommen was pretty much ignored his entire life.

In addition, we have to keep in mind that Joff's violent/cruel tendencies nearly always come forth when he is drunk. Back when he cuts Mycah he is drunk, during his wedding he is even more drunk. Even nice people can be mean and cruel when they are drunk.

And nobody is saying Joff was a nice guy. He is a little shit, really, but that doesn't mean he has severe mental issues. 

Actually, after reading your post I cannot help but think of Samwell Tarly. He had received a cruel behavior from his father, yet he did not become a phycopath. And yes, I know he conciders himself a craven, yet he would not even think of doing harm. Rather the opposite I would say.

As for Joffrey, I think his condition has to do with incest. Just like the "Mad" Targs, the genes from siblings have more probability to contain some recessive "altered" gene that may cause disease. A disease can be a mental one. In addition to his environment and being crown prince and then king can explain his behavior. But I think that we should claim he is responsible for his actions. Eg. when he ordered to kill Ned, he knew fully well what he was doing.

[Lord Varys]

13 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

What's the excuse for Joff's abuse of Tommen?  Is this more boys will be boys stuff?

"The world is full of horrors, Tommen. You can fight them, or laugh at them, or look without seeing...go away inside." Tommen considered that. "I...used to go away inside sometimes," he confessed, "when Joffy..." [Interrupted by Cersei] (AFFC Jamie I)

There is no excuse for that. But even that doesn't make him a psychopath. And we don't know what he did, really. Was Tommen about to tell the kind of stuff Egg had to suffer from Aerion? Or was it more Joffrey making Tommen to watch stuff he did, say, when he had people executed or fight to the death or something like that.

But I'll of course believe that Joff had quite a little bit of fun tormenting his little brother when nobody was looking. However, I'm not so sure this included sexual abuse.

2 minutes ago, Yuki_no_JonI said:

As for Joffrey, I think his condition has to do with incest. Just like the "Mad" Targs, the genes from siblings have more probability to contain some recessive "altered" gene that may cause disease. A disease can be a mental one. In addition to his environment and being crown prince and then king can explain his behavior. But I think that we should claim he is responsible for his actions. Eg. when he ordered to kill Ned, he knew fully well what he was doing.

Thanks for brining up Ned's execution. From Joff's point of view he wasn't cruel there. He was trying to be a strong and stern king, the kind of monarch he thought he should be and that his people expected him to be. Remember what his speech: 'So long as I am your king [addressing the people of KL] treason shall never go unpunished.'

Joff thinks a king has to be stern with traitors, and certainly has been reinforced in that belief by Littlefinger who fed him the idea that it would be a much better cause of action that Joff should execute Ned rather than send him to the Wall. But he isn't necessarily deliberately cruel there. Later on he tells Sansa that granting Ned a clean death was mercy - which it was, in a society that is based on the middle ages. Joff could have done much crueler things to Ned than just behead him.

I don't think the incest has anything to do with that. The Lannisters don't exactly practice incest on a regular basis nor is there any hint that Targaryen incest has made them more sadistic and cruel (although Maegor, Daemon, and Aerion all had sadistic tendencies). Their madness is of an entirely different sort (causing them to be obsessed with fire and dragons).

[Cas Stark]

Joff did know he was being cruel when he executed Ned.  He knew he had promised Sansa mercy and that Ned was to take the black.  He also knew that an execution at the sept was a serious religious transgression.

Though it's not an over the top level of cruelty, but let's not pretend he didn't know what he was doing there with his finance.

[Yuki_no_JonI]

13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Thanks for brining up Ned's execution. From Joff's point of view he wasn't cruel there. He was trying to be a strong and stern king, the kind of monarch he thought he should be and that his people expected him to be. Remember what his speech: 'So long as I am your king [addressing the people of KL] treason shall never go unpunished.'

Joff thinks a king has to be stern with traitors, and certainly has been reinforced in that belief by Littlefinger who fed him the idea that it would be a much better cause of action that Joff should execute Ned rather than send him to the Wall. But he isn't necessarily deliberately cruel there. Later on he tells Sansa that granting Ned a clean death was mercy - which it was, in a society that is based on the middle ages. Joff could have done much crueler things to Ned than just behead him.

I don't think the incest has anything to do with that. The Lannisters don't exactly practice incest on a regular basis nor is there any hint that Targaryen incest has made them more sadistic and cruel (although Maegor, Daemon, and Aerion all had sadistic tendencies). Their madness is of an entirely different sort (causing them to be obsessed with fire and dragons).

Actually, his decision on Baelor's Sept was a declaration "I am the King", neither Tywin nor Cercei nor anyone else. Agreed on that. What I meant is that it was neither a good decision and nor taking the black was no punishment.

3 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Joff did know he was being cruel when he executed Ned.  He knew he had promised Sansa mercy and that Ned was to take the black.  He also knew that an execution at the sept was a serious religious transgression.

Though it's not an over the top level of cruelty, but let's not pretend he didn't know what he was doing there with his finance.

As for the mercy, I think in his mind he was mercyful since he ordered a clear death rather that torture or burn alive or I cannot imagine what else. That is what makes him at least sadistic in my book.

[Knight Of Winter]

40 minutes ago, Kaguya said:

Is there textual evidence that Joffrey didn't regret the cat incident? 

 

And of of course he was still a brat as a teenager. He was Cersei Lannisters prince. I don't need to go into detail, as I already posted a quote by him a few pages back. I'm sure you'll understand.

If he regretted it, he would not have behaved in a way he behaves through the books.

39 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

1) Killing animals for sport (and killing animals for meat) can both be considered abominable. We long happen to live in a civilization (worldwide, I might add) in which we could easily continue living without ever so much killing a fellow mammal or even a fellow vertebrate.

But large portions of humanity pretty much don't care about that.

The idea that it is better to off a pig or a bull 'in battle' or with a hunting rifle instead in a meat factory doesn't make much sense. From our modern POV one can make a case that eating exclusively game meat is morally better considering that those animals didn't have to go through the insanity of the meat industry but live instead a more or less 'happy natural life' (until the bullet hits them, of course).

2) Modern psychopathy tests include animal cruelty and stuff but we have to see that in context. Westeros is a society in which animal cruelty is actually a quite common thing, so it is hardly a correct means to test you if something is wrong with your empathy.

3) A prince torturing some kittens wouldn't alarm anyone in this world. A prince torturing smallfolk might.

4) But thinking about the cat incident again it seems as if Joff wanted kittens, and actually thought he might be able to get one if he cut that cat open. Did he know what he was doing? Did he already know about death being final and all? We don't really know. He seemed to have not understood that he should wait until the cat dropped the kittens instead of cutting them out.

5) If we diagnose Joff with psychopathy is then Arya a psychopath, too? Unlike Joffrey she has begun to murder people casually without so much as thinking about it. Joff never killed anyone with his own hands - the point George tries to get across with him is that it is insanely stupid to give a young boy absolute power. Joff is testing what he can do. Telling somebody to kill a person you don't like is so much easier than actually doing it, and quite a lot of people would do so if they could get away with it. Especially adolescent boys.

1) This is not a place for a debate about vegetarianism. Suffiuce to say that both sides have enough arguments, although I would be wary of sitting on a oh-so-high horse and calling majority of people (the ones who eat meat) immoral-doers.

2) Only three examples of animal cruelty come to mind: Joffrey, Ramsay and Gregor (killing his horse). If you wish to argue that animal cruelty is widespread in Westeros without eating meat is immoral argument, you'd have to find much more examples to support your thesis.

3) That's outright false. It did alarm Stannis and Robert. In fact it alarmed Robert "Inattentive father of the year" Baratheon so much that he reacted with such disgust

4) Many kids want a kitten, yet I've never heard or read of one who tried to slash a cat to get them.

5) You honestly don't see a difference between Arya and Joffrey to resort to this argument? Arya, unlike Joffrey, shows empathy, doesn't torture people for fun, does altruistic actions and has a sense of right and wrong.

In most cases with psychopathy, one asks: What makes you think he's a psycho? But with Joffrey, the situation is so extreme that one must instead ask What makes you think he's not a psycho? And that's a question I haven't received a proper answer to so far.

[The Holy Goat]

As far as I'm concered Joffrey was a classic bully and a psychopath. The two are not mutually exlusive. Some bullies are horrible people because of external issues like bad parenting, abuse, pressure etc. Others are bullies because they fundamentally lack empathy and thus the concept of guilt and "I should not do this because it's wrong" doesn't apply to them. I think Joffrey is a mixture of both. There are strong hints that he lacks empathy for others, which is a main requirement for being classified as a psychopath, but it's also likely that this psychopathy was only allowed to get out of control because of external factors (Cersei, Robert, lickspittles at court, power and being a king, etc.). Had he been raised by genuinely loving parents in a healthy environment it's possible that he might a turned out far better, though he would still reamin a psychopath.

[Cas Stark]

Just now, Yuki_no_JonI said:

Actually, his decision on Baelor's Sept was a declaration "I am the King", neither Tywin nor Cercei nor anyone else. Agreed on that. What I meant is that it was neither a good decision and nor taking the black was no punishment.

As for the mercy, I think in his mind he was mercyful since he ordered a clear death rather that torture or burn alive or I cannot imagine what else. That is what makes him at least sadistic in my book.

He says that, but he knows that's BS.  Just like he knows it's BS when he doesn't himself raise a hand to Sansa but has the KG beat her.  That's just Joff playing a little mind game.  He's a sadistic prick.  And the fact that he, and his mother, both manifested traits of the psychopath or of some type of personality disorder at such young ages is strong evidence that it was much more than just a teenage boy acting out.  Certainly his privileged position and his terrible parents exacerbated his negative traits, but bad parents don't make you slice open a cat for fun or abuse your brother so he has to 'go away' in his mind.

[HairGrowsBack]

I feel like GRRM felt compelled to say that in response to the readers/audience rejoicing to Joff's death. He's not wrong when he states that we should feel some empathy for a 13 year-old choking to death.

That being said, I do think Joffrey does cross the line of the simple bully by a large margin. I am no expert in who is a psychopath and who's not, but he has very obvious sadistic tendencies that aren't rooted in anything rational or understandable. however let's not forget his awful upbringing (drunken, violent father and cruel, psychotic mother who seems to have strong incestuous feelings towards him).

So, I can see George's point, but I think he's minimizing Joff's cruelty and abnormal sadistic streak.

[SeanF]

58 minutes ago, Kaguya said:

I'm in agreement with thelittledragon 

 

Killing an Animal is killing an Animal. Use the coddling term "hunting" all you want to justify it as less evil, but both Robert and Joffrey were doing the same thing.

Only if you'd be willing to argue by analogy that killing a man who calls you "Lord Snow", like Ramsay Bolton, is the same thing morally as         killing someone in self-defence, like Sam killing the Other.

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, Knight Of Winter said:

If he regretted it, he would not have behaved in a way he behaves through the books.

1) This is not a place for a debate about vegetarianism. Suffiuce to say that both sides have enough arguments, although I would be wary of sitting on a oh-so-high horse and calling majority of people (the ones who eat meat) immoral-doers.

2) Only three examples of animal cruelty come to mind: Joffrey, Ramsay and Gregor (killing his horse). If you wish to argue that animal cruelty is widespread in Westeros without eating meat is immoral argument, you'd have to find much more examples to support your thesis.

3) That's outright false. It did alarm Stannis and Robert. In fact it alarmed Robert "Inattentive father of the year" Baratheon so much that he reacted with such disgust

4) Many kids want a kitten, yet I've never heard or read of one who tried to slash a cat to get them.

5) You honestly don't see a difference between Arya and Joffrey to resort to this argument? Arya, unlike Joffrey, shows empathy, doesn't torture people for fun, does altruistic actions and has a sense of right and wrong.

In most cases with psychopathy, one asks: What makes you think he's a psycho? But with Joffrey, the situation is so extreme that one must instead ask What makes you think he's not a psycho? And that's a question I haven't received a proper answer to so far.

1) Right. I still eat meat on occasion, by the way. But I'm not sitting on so high a horse as to actually defend that practice.

2) There are other hints of animal cruelty if you know where to look. It is said that dogs are usually kicked and beaten so that they know their place (in which they are set apart from the direwolves in Winterfell). You don't get dogs to actually pretty much fear any human they are around if they are not severely chastised for transgressions. This is a society that is based very strongly on the direct exploitations of animals. They are tools and serve a purpose. If they are broken they have to go.

3) Robert was upset about Joff cutting the cat open because he wanted to have kittens. I don't think we can take that as confirmation that Robert would have acted similarly if Joff had just tortured a cat for fun or sport.

4) We all have a moment when we realize what death is, and that it is final. Did Joff already know that when he killed the cat? We don't know. I never cut open a cat, but under the right circumstances I certainly might have - not yet knowing that this was wrong, having already seen many men doing similar things to a variety of animals (cats not necessarily excluded - they were tolerated on medieval farms and in castles, not exactly loved as kittens - if there were too much of them they were drowned).

5) Arya didn't show any empathy for the Bolton soldier, Dareon, or the Braavosi insurance guy she killed. Not to mention that neither of these man had actually done her any harm. Joff, on the other hand, has a pretty good reason to hate both Sansa and the Starks in general, so it is pretty understandable that he lashes out against them. And unlike Arya we are never in his head so we don't know what he actually felt throughout all that.

Arya certainly has developed into a person who could murder people casually and without much remorse. She is right now as good with that kind of thing as Varys and Littlefinger are (e.g. Lysa and Pycelle/Kevan). That doesn't mean she is a psychopath, of course, but she has become a twisted person who doesn't shy away from murder. In fact, he relishes in it and likes to do it (e.g. Raff - she had a good motive there, of course, but she enjoyed it way too much to be a person I'd like to meet in real life).