So Aerys was already pretty evil before Dukensdale?

[Lord Varys]

The way Yandel describes Aerys during Harrenhal makes it very clear that the man had very serious mental issues that were obviously the symptoms of a very serious (and deteriorating) mental illness.

No sane man goes from mad laughter to fits of rages and straight on to tears.

As to the quality of the good kings:

The thing is, we don't really know why exactly Jaehaerys I, Aegon I, Daeron II, etc. can be considered to be great kings. Was Jaehaerys I one the (main) cause of his own greatness, or is he merely remembered as such a great king because the Good Queen and Septon Barth (and prior to that Queen Regent Alyssa and the Lord Protector Robar Baratheon) ruled the Realm in his name, with most or all of Jaehaerys' great ideas actually originating with them? The same goes for the Conqueror: Was Aegon such a great guy or is the greatness of his reign more due to the decisions Rhaenys, Visenya, Orys Baratheon and the other Hands made?

Was Daeron the Good really that good or was he just smart enough to follow the advice of his wife, Queen Mariah, or his more trusted counselors like Princess Elaena?

We just don't know.

If the great kings weren't that great then the bad kings may not have been that bad.

Burning people alive isn't bad in itself, by the way. At least not in a society like Westeros. Traitors usually suffer very gruesome deaths, and if Aerys actually burned guilty criminals alive then this may be a bit harsh but scarcely anything to scold him for. He wouldn't have been the only king to resort to that kind of thing.

As to Aerys' overall character:

I'm not sure he was that insecure. Yandel tells us about all those fancy ideas of the young king which led to nothing, and it is easy to imagine that it fell to Tywin to help his friend see reason in all that. And after a few years Tywin may have gained the reputation of the guy who talked sense to the king. Hell, he might even have been enjoying the fact that he was the one who buried the king's 'visionary projects'.

Aerys clearly wasn't the smartest guy on earth but everyone has a right to feel betrayed and mocked if you wake up one day and realize that you are surrounded by a bunch of false friends and lickspittles who always agree with you when you talk to them but laugh behind the back (and it seems quite clear to me that the young Aerys may have been laughed at behind his back - especially when he came up with some new weirdo project).

That you become, well, irritated and paranoid after such experiences isn't exactly difficult to imagine. I mean, just try to imagine your friends treat you like that.

In general we also learn that Aerys was a very generous and friendly guy to people he liked - all those cronies of his who later resented the idea of 'King Rhaegar' had greatly profited from Aerys' generosity - considering how advanced his madness and paranoia was at that point the very fact that he was still generous is testament to the fact that the not-so-mad Aerys must have been a very amiable guy.

What we hear about the young Aerys is that he loved dancing and masquerades and the fun of court life - there is no hint that he was a naturally cruel guy. I honestly don't see him behaving in any way like Joffrey or Aerion as a youth.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

LV, 

Im sorry, but if the best thing you can say about a guy is "he was generous to those hat pleased him" and "he liked a good party.." That is not saying very much about that persons character.

The lowest of the low abusive asshole will be happy and gregarious when people stroke his ego.  It's how people react during a challenge - during trying times - that describes their character. 

[Jasta11]

I think Duskendale was the point where he went from garden variety quirky royal brat to full-on psycothic nutjob who shouldn't be within 100 feet of a crown.

The seeds os madness were, i think, already there, but it was Duskendale that really kicked off the Aerys terror parade.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

LV, 

Im sorry, but if the best thing you can say about a guy is "he was generous to those hat pleased him" and "he liked a good party.." That is not saying very much about that persons character.

The lowest of the low abusive asshole will be happy and gregarious when people stroke his ego.  It's how people react during a challenge - during trying times - that describes their character. 

Yeah, well, but we can also not say that the guy was 'the lowest of the low abusive assholes', right? At least not the young prince and the young king.

I'm not saying Aerys was a nice guy, I'm saying he was an average guy with some good and some bad traits being brought out by the whole king thing. For most of his reign the guy was just eccentric while being not overly cruel but throughout all that overly generous to his friends.

And his positives traits may already have made him a much better king than many of his predecessors, most notably his own father, Maekar I and Aerys I, who both were no people persons. A very important part of being a king - in fact, the most important trait in present-day monarchs - is to play the part of king, to be open, friendly, and nice to the people you have interact with as king.

Aerys seemed to have been very good at that while his own son, Prince Rhaegar, clearly was not. Being a great warrior and all doesn't help if you are melancholic all the time.

Yandel actually shows us how the public image and the quality of a king is determined by the way he present himself to his people. Aegon III clearly was a great king insofar as his political program ('fuck the lords, those hyenas have made my minority to hell - I'll take care of my smallfolk as best I can') was concerned. But being not very communicative/approachable and not staging any great events like tourneys, balls, feasts, etc. to show off your greatness doesn't help you when you want to win the love of your contemporaries. And only if you have that are you going to make it into the history books as a great king.

In that sense, Aerys' little jokes, his fancy ideas, his occasional pre-Duskendale cruelty would have had no chance to besmirch his public image had he not developed into a filthy madman in the wake of Duskendale.

Not to mention that even Aerion Brightflame and Prince Daemon had a lot of friends - and both certainly were much more innately cruel than Aerys II ever was. They had innate sadistic tendencies while Aerys' obsession with fire clearly is a symptom of his madness. And only the fire obsession makes him cruel. There is no sign that Aerys whipped servants bloody when they brought him bad news nor are there any hints that he enjoyed chastising unruly smallfolk with his own hands.

[the Scorpion Knight]

On 19.2.2016 at 5:23 PM, A spoon of knife and fork said:

My opinion is that he was always a self-centered asshole, pretty dumb, insecure, narcissistic.  The best we hear of him in the main text from Barristan is "he could be charming when he wished" which is very faint praise indeed.  Yes, he does say he watched him go mad but that doesn't mean he wasn't already a jerk when he started to go mad.

I think the main thing that Duskendale did was to cause Aerys to no longer care what people thought of his actions.  His insecurity (which was earlier directed at Tywin, the Dornish, and his wife and Son primarily) turned to widespread paranoia. His Fascination with fire and sadism turned to burning people alive for increasingly minor offenses.  

I'm still not totally convinced Aerys was "mad", beyond being paranoid, sadistic, and sociopathic, with completely unrestricted power.  

I actually think aerys eccentric ideas had a method in them:

the second wall would have preoccupied the  lords and hedge knight and showed the south that the wall is more then a gulag;

the channel to dorne meant that travel to dorne would have been easier, not to mention the increase of agriculture and with that more income thanks to taxes;

the anextion of the stepstones makes trade between essos and  westeros  easier  and safer thanks to getting rid of the pirates sitting there;  

the boast about "bringing the titan to his knees"  was never about the iron bank. It was a ploy used to empty Tywin coffers.

[dornishdragon]

Aerys was not pretty evil before Duskendale. He was a reasonable king in fact, the beginning of his reign was good with a very competent Hand, Tywin running the state affairs. Aerys himself was charismatic and generous although quick to anger, proud and jealous (relatively normal for kings). After that the stillborns and premature deaths of his babies started to affect him which is normal for a king that needed to produce more heirs. He became bitter and was a bit too much paranoid about Rhaella and Tywin and he shouldn't have ripped Ilyn's tongue out but still he was not mad at this point. He claerly passed the limits with the torture after the death of Prince Jaehaerys but we felt guilt and did a repentance walk and becaming totally faithful to Rhaella. After the Defiance he snapped enjoying burning people alive that his hallucinations said were his enimies becaming so afraid of blades that stopped shaving his beard, hair and nails. What he see here is the onset of a case of paranoid schizophenia so I would not consider him evil rather insane and unimputable by law.  

[theblackdragonI]

On 20/02/2016 at 4:16 AM, Lord Varys said:

 

Not to mention that even Aerion Brightflame and Prince Daemon had a lot of friends - and both certainly were much more innately cruel than Aerys II ever was. They had innate sadistic tendencies while Aerys' obsession with fire clearly is a symptom of his madness. And only the fire obsession makes him cruel. There is no sign that Aerys whipped servants bloody when they brought him bad news nor are there any hints that he enjoyed chastising unruly smallfolk with his own hands.

I would say Prince Daemon was a harsh man rather than cruel but that's always going to be a tough call.

Yes he liked to burn people he perceived as traitors, which as you say, could be his obsession with fire and paranoia. But, you're overlooking the repeated raping and beating his wife suffered at his hands.. 

I agree though that in his youth Aerys was a typical Targaryen prince. Boisterous, confident and constantly reassured that he was a good person by those around him. He seemed to be a king content to rule over his court than his people however. Preferring balls and tourneys to actually ruling. You say he treated the smallfolk well, but while he lorded over his court, Tywin undid nearly all of Aegon V's laws that helped the smallfolk and lessened the power of the lords.

Again though you are right, he was neither great nor bad. Aerys would have been all in all, a forgettable king if Duskendale and Robert's Rebellion had not happened.

[the conquering bastard 25]

I kinda have to agree with he statement of just how mad was Aerys? 

Even at the height of his madness some finds his choices or decision on the  whole

On 2/19/2016 at 11:37 AM, Little Lark said:

 I hope I never learn what your definition of madness is.

But I think you're right that Aerys was just a jerk regardless. In the books sometimes it seems like people almost use his madness as an excuse for his behavior, but I'm of the opinion that he probably would've been spoiled and entitled no matter what.

I do, however, think that the madness was a factor and, to an extent, I think it affected his judgement, temperament, and emotional maturity.

I used to know a neuroscientist who said that being predisposed to mental illness is like owning a lemon (a bad car, not the fruit). You might drive it forever without anything going seriously wrong, as long as you don't encounter any problems on the road. However, if one day you end up driving over some bumpy road, you might start to notice serious problems with your car. The human brain is kind of like that. You might be genetically predisposed to depression, for example, and never develop it. But some kind of mental and emotional trauma might be the thing that sets you off. 

Aerys was definitely cruel and paranoid before his kidnapping and I think he'd already started to go a bit mad, but Duskendale was his bumpy road and it made everything 100x worse.

harsh punishment may indicate madness but not the judgement behind it.

If you believe Barba Dustin Rickard and several other lords were plotting rebelion, with Robert as a figure head big threat. Ned as his family was just killed on grounds of treason. Who's to say Ned wasn't a traitor s well or as the new lord of the north decides to avenge his father,brother and sister. Again a threat and one his rival would have dispatched with the quickness.

The proof that Aerys in his more lucid moments had some clarity is he left Jon arryns heir alive. If I was a betting man/woman I would think this act was a gesture of goodwill towards Jon or good faith. Almost like without using words I spared your heir now kill those young men so we can be square.

He killed those sons from the Vale, North and Trident I think for 2 reasons 1) that he wanted to teach a lesson to those that would even attempt to rebel against house Targaryen. 2) it would cause conflict with the Lord's of this region. Their LPS were fomenting rebellion and their sons paid the price. With JA getting to keep his heir.

Do I believe Aerys was crazy bats shit insane? No I dont. I think he might have used his less than rational moments or some cray cray moments to his advantage. Do I believe that Aerys could be driven to extremes or that he might have mental instability but not crazy.

Yet the question becomes who ruled with Rhaegar in the south, Tywin is in the west. When the Stark verdict came down who was his hand? Was it truly Vary who was whispering in the kings ear that drove him to such an extreme or in his mind he acting like Tywin?

 

[The Wolves]

There's nothing to support that Aerys was a horrible person before Dunkensdale. He was probably a typical Targ prince/noble no different than the other asshole, entitled, man-child, selfish, stupid nobles we've been introduced to through Jaime, Tyrion, Theon, Etc... Dunkensdale just tipped him into the point of no return. 

Was Aerys refusing Cersei as Rhaegar's betrothed before or after Dunkensdale?  

[bent branch]

22 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

There's nothing to support that Aerys was a horrible person before Dunkensdale. He was probably a typical Targ prince/noble no different than the other asshole, entitled, man-child, selfish, stupid nobles we've been introduced to through Jaime, Tyrion, Theon, Etc... Dunkensdale just tipped him into the point of no return. 

Was Aerys refusing Cersei as Rhaegar's betrothed before or after Dunkensdale?  

It was less than a year before Duskendale. I mean before Aerys was taken.

[The Wolves]

21 minutes ago, bent branch said:

It was less than a year before Duskendale. I mean before Aerys was taken.

Greatest decision ever made in the series and history of Westeros.