Wow, I Never Noticed That, v. 14

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, Isobel Harper said:

Well, I don't think Aerys is Cersei's father, so no.  LM is probably right.  He saw a potential repeat of his own wedding, with Joanna/Sansa being taken advantage of in some way.

Damn. I thought I could sneak it in there 

[Lost Melnibonean]

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"No. Tywin mistrusted laughter. He heard too many people laughing at your grandsire."

--Genna to Jaime, Jaime V, Feast 33

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"Will you forget your own lord father too? I wonder if you ever knew him, truly." Her eyes were green, her hair spun gold. He could not tell how old she was. Fifteen, he thought, or fifty. She climbed the steps to stand above the bier. "He could never abide being laughed at. That was the thing he hated most."

. . .

"We all dream of things we cannot have. Tywin dreamed that his son would be a great knight, that his daughter would be a queen. He dreamed they would be so strong and brave and beautiful that no one would ever laugh at them."

 

--Jaime’s vision of his mother, Jaime VII, Feast 44

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Sometimes he even wept, until he heard the Mummers laughing. Then he made his eyes go dry and his heart go dead, and prayed for his fever to burn away his tears. Now I know how Tyrion has felt, all those times they laughed at him.

--Jaime’s thoughts after losing his hand, Jaime IV, Storm 31

Jaime is his father’s son.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

On 12-4-2016 at 7:22 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

Now, why do you suppose The George wrote that bit about the sleeve ripping and no one hearing? 

Sansa was the bride, and it was her wedding. She was supposed to be the center of attention, yet, when it comes down to it, when the bride is in distress, no one pays her much attention. Her husband, in his attempt to avoid a bedding, only managed to have her come to harm (the ripping of the sleeve), which was the start of their unsuccesfull marriage.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Jaime IV, Storm 31

As Jaime is led into Harrenhal. . .

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Soldiers, servants, and camp followers gathered to hoot at them. A spotted bitch followed them through the camps barking and growling until one of the Lyseni impaled her on a lance and galloped to the front of the column. "I am bearing Kingslayer's banner," he shouted, shaking the dead dog above Jaime's head.

What’s the bit about the spotted female dog being impaled on a Lyseni spear for?

Here’s who greeted Jaime. . .

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Five knights and a northman stood looking down on him; the one pale-eyed in wool and fur, the five fierce in mail and plate, with the twin towers sigil on their surcoats. "A fury of Freys," Jaime declared. "Ser Danwell, Ser Aenys, Ser Hosteen." He knew Lord Walder's sons by sight; his aunt had married one, after all.

Ser Aenys Frey (deceased) is Lord Walder’s third son by his first wife, Perra Royce. Aenys is wed to Tyana Wylde. They have three offspring, Aegon Bloodborn, Rhaegar (deceased), and Perriane. Rhaegar is wed to Jeyne Beesbury. They have three offspring, Robert, Jonos, and White Walda. Perriane is wed to Leslyn Haigh. They have three offspring, Harys, Donnel, and Alyn. Harys has a son named Walder by an unnamed wife.

Ser Hosteen Frey is Lord Walder’s sixth son, and first born of his third wife, Amarei Crakehall. Hosteen is wed to Bellena Hawick. They have one son, Arwood. Arwood is wed to Ryella Royce. They have four offspring, Androw, Alyn, Ryella, and Hostella. Hosteen joins Aenys when the later supports Roose’s “liberation” of the North.

Ser Danwell Frey is Lord Walder’s eighth son, and third born of his third wife, Amarei Crakehall. He is wed to Wynafrei Whent. They do not have any children yet.

Although Aenys seethes with resentment for Robb Stark, notice that Danwell urges Roose to ransom Jaime back to Riverrun, and another unspecified Frey suggests that Roose execute Jaime in revenge for Eddard Stark. I wonder if there is any reason for that? Danwell was a few years older than Jaime, but when Jaime was eleven, he was sent to squire for Sumner Crakehall, along with Merrett Frey, who was the younger full brother of Hosteen and Danwell.

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In the maester's chambers beneath the rookery, a grey-haired, fatherly man named Qyburn sucked in his breath when he cut away the linen from the stump of Jaime's hand.

I can’t read that line without singing, “In the master’s chambers/They gathered for the feast. . . ”

[Lost Melnibonean]

Tyrion IV, Storm 32 opens with Tyrion talking to Bronn about the aftermath of burning out the haphazard structures built up against the wall surrounding King’s Landing. In the conversation, though, I see a hint at young Aegon not being who he thinks he is. . .

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"They come back quicker than the rats," he complained. "We burned them out once, you'd think they'd take that as a lesson."

"Give me a few dozen gold cloaks and I'll kill them all," said Bronn. "Once they're dead they don't come back."

"No, but others come in their places.”

 

Compare this. . .

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The Three Whores still dominated the market square inside the gate, but they stood idle now, and the boulders and barrels of pitch had all been trundled away. There were children climbing the towering wooden structures, swarming up like monkeys in roughspun to perch on the throwing arms and hoot at each other.

"Remind me to tell Ser Addam to post some gold cloaks here," Tyrion told Bronn as they rode between two of the trebuchets. "Some fool boy's like to fall off and break his back." There was a shout from above, and a clod of manure exploded on the ground a foot in front of them. Tyrion's mare reared and almost threw him. "On second thoughts," he said when he had the horse in hand, "let the poxy brats splatter on the cobbles like overripe melons."

He was in a black mood, and not just because a few street urchins wanted to pelt him with dung.

 

With this. . .

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A monkey on the mast above howled derision, almost as if it could taste his frustration. Filthy, noisy beast. He could send a man up after it, but the monkeys seemed to like that game and had proved themselves more agile than his crew. The howls rang in his ears, though, and made the throbbing in his hand seem worse.

. . .

The monkeys, though … the monkeys were a plague. Victarion had forbidden his men to bring any of the demonic creatures aboard ship, yet somehow half his fleet was now infested with them, even his own Iron Victory. He could see some now, swinging from spar to spar and ship to ship. Would that I had a crossbow.

. . .

"A demon priest," said Wulfe One-Ear. He spat. "Might be his robes caught fire, so he jumped overboard to put them out," suggested Longwater Pyke, to general laughter. Even the monkeys were amused. They chattered overhead, and one flung down a handful of his own shit to spatter on the boards.

Victarion Greyjoy mistrusted laughter. The sound of it always left him with the uneasy feeling that he was the butt of some jape he did not understand. Euron Crow's Eye had oft made mock of him when they were boys. So had Aeron, before he had become the Damphair. Their mockery oft came disguised as praise, and sometimes Victarion had not even realized he was being mocked. Not until he heard the laughter. Then came the anger, boiling up in the back of his throat until he was like to choke upon the taste. That was how he felt about the monkeys. Their antics never brought so much as a smile to the captain's face, though his crew would roar and hoot and whistle.

. . .

Moqorro crossed his arms against his chest. He did not appear frightened, though all around him men were calling for his death. Even the monkeys did not seem to like this wizard. They leapt from line to line overhead, screaming.

. . .

Monkey shit rained down around them all, splat splat splat.

. . .

"If you lie to me, I will split your head open like a melon and let the monkeys eat your brains."

. . .

The iron captain was not seen again that day, but as the hours passed the crew of his Iron Victory reported hearing the sound of wild laughter coming from the captain's cabin, laughter deep and dark and mad, and when Longwater Pyke and Wulfe One-Eye tried the cabin door they found it barred. Later singing was heard, a strange high wailing song in a tongue the maester said was High Valyrian. That was when the monkeys left the ship, screeching as they leapt into the water.

Come sunset, as the sea turned black as ink and the swollen sun tinted the sky a deep and bloody red, Victarion came back on deck. He was naked from the waist up, his left arm blood to the elbow. As his crew gathered, whispering and trading glances, he raised a charred and blackened hand. Wisps of dark smoke rose from his fingers . . .

 

The Iron Suitor,  Dance 56

And recall this. . .

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Brother couples with sister in the bed of kings, and the fruit of their incest capers in his palace to the piping of a twisted little monkey demon.

Tyrion V, Clash 20

And this. . .

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He laughed again. "The dwarf, the evil counselor, the twisted little monkey demon. I'm all that stands between them and chaos."

Tyrion X, Clash 44

And this. . .

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He called Bronn to his side. "Assemble a hundred men and burn everything you see here between the water's edge and the city walls." He waved his stubby fingers, taking in all the waterfront squalor. "I want nothing left standing, do you understand?"

The black-haired sellsword turned his head, considering the task. "Them as own all this won't like that much."

"I never imagined they would. So be it; they'll have something else to curse the evil monkey demon for."

 

Tyrion XI, Clash 49

Back to Tyrion IV, Storm 32. . .

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Tyrion had commanded Sansa to wear a sleeping shift as well. I want her, he realized.

Hmm. . .  Tyrion has a bit of Baelor the Blessed in him, eh?

Compare this. . .

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Muddy Way was crowded, but soldiers and townfolk alike made way for the Imp and his escort. Hollow-eyed children swarmed underfoot, some looking up in silent appeal whilst others begged noisily. Tyrion pulled a big fistful of coppers from his purse and tossed them in the air, and the children went running for them, shoving and shouting.

To this. . .

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Farther on she came upon a feast of corpses. Savagely slaughtered, the feasters lay strewn across overturned chairs and hacked trestle tables, asprawl in pools of congealing blood. Some had lost limbs, even heads. Severed hands clutched bloody cups, wooden spoons, roast fowl, heels of bread. In a throne above them sat a dead man with the head of a wolf. He wore an iron crown and held a leg of lamb in one hand as a king might hold a scepter, and his eyes followed Dany with mute appeal.

Daenerys IV, Clash 48

And this. . .

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She pressed the blade deeper into Jinglebell's throat. The lackwit rolled his eyes at her in mute appeal.

Catelyn VII, Storm 51

The only other time The George used the expression was in Catelyn II, Game 6. . .

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"He cannot stay here," Catelyn said, cutting him off. "He is your son, not mine. I will not have him." It was hard, she knew, but no less the truth. Ned would do the boy no kindness by leaving him here at Winterfell.

The look Ned gave her was anguished. "You know I cannot take him south. There will be no place for him at court. A boy with a bastard's name . . . you know what they will say of him. He will be shunned."

Catelyn armored her heart against the mute appeal in her husband's eyes. "They say your friend Robert has fathered a dozen bastards himself."

"And none of them has ever been seen at court!" Ned blazed. "The Lannister woman has seen to that. How can you be so damnably cruel, Catelyn? He is only a boy. He—"

 

Back to Tyrion IV, Storm 32. . .

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They turned away from Aegon's High Hill, into the maze of smaller streets that clustered around the foot of Visenya's. Bronn led the way. Once or twice Tyrion glanced back over his shoulder to see if they were being followed, but there was nothing to be seen except the usual rabble: a carter beating his horse, an old woman throwing nightsoil from her window, two little boys fighting with sticks, three gold cloaks escorting a captive . . . they all looked innocent, but any one of them could be his undoing. Varys had informers everywhere.

They turned at a corner, and again at the next, and rode slowly through a crowd of women at a well. Bronn led him along a curving wynd, through an alley, under a broken archway. They cut through the rubble where a house had burned and walked their horses up a shallow flight of stone steps.

 

That was part of the route Tyrion took from the Mud Gate to the pot shop, where he met with Symon Silver Tongue. Was there any other significance to the specific descriptions of the “extras” “on set,” so to speak?

And why do you suppose The George gave names to the seven singers who would sing at Joffrey’s wedding?

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“Galyeon of Cuy, Bethany Fair-fingers, Aemon Costayne, Alaric of Eysen, Hamish the Harper, Collio Quaynis, and Orland of Oldtown will compete for a gilded lute with silver strings . . .”

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

Compare this...

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She blinked at her sister, then at the young prince. “I don’t know,” she said tearfully, looking as though she wanted to bolt. “I don’t remember. Everything happened so fast, I didn’t see …”

To this...

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“Did you see the boy attack Prince Joffrey?” Lord Beric Dondarrion asked the Hound.

“I heard it from the royal lips. It’s not my place to question princes.” Clegane jerked his hands toward Arya. “This one’s own sister told the same tale when she stood before your precious Robert.”

“Sansa’s just a liar,” Arya said, furious at her sister all over again. “It wasn’t like she said. It wasn’t.”

 

Arya and Sandor both recall Sansa testifying in support of Joffrey, when she actually testified that she had insufficient recollection. 

[Walda]

Can't believe I missed this:

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She lifted her veil and let it flutter away. She took her tokar off as well.(ADwD, Ch.52 Daenerys IX)

Dany streaks into Daznak's pit, flies away starkers on Drogon, is walking back to Meereen naked, and meets Khal Jhaquo's Khalasar in her nameday suit.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

2 hours ago, Walda said:

Can't believe I missed this:

Dany streaks into Daznak's pit, flies away starkers on Drogon, is walking back to Meereen naked, and meets Khal Jhaquo's Khalasar in her nameday suit.

 Well, not entirely. She's still wearing her linnen undertunic, though it no longer is in the best condition.

[No One of Importance]

From the previous thread:

Well, Martin said we would see Sandor in the fifth book.

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I also asked if Sandor would be in the upcoming book. He pleaded the fifth.

 

Not sure if this was tongue-in-cheek, but in the U.S., "pleading the fifth" is essentially neither confirming nor denying, in reference to the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution (that no one can be forced to incriminate themselves under oath).  So it's not a reference to the fifth book.

[No One of Importance]

I never noticed that the Targaryen line of succession is pretty wacky.  If Dany becomes queen, it would actually be unprecedented in terms of succession from parent to child.

You go from Aegon I to his son Aenys, but then Aenys is succeeded by his half-brother Maegor.

Maegor is succeeded by his nephew (Aenys' son) Jaehaerys I.

Jaehaerys I is succeeded by his grandson, Viserys I.

Viserys I is succeeded by his son, Aegon II, but Aegon II is succeeded by his nephew, Aegon III.

Aegon III is succeeded by his son, Daeron I, but then Daeron I is succeeded by his brother (Baelor), who, in turn, is succeeded by his uncle (Viserys II).

We then have three parent-child successions: Viserys II -> Aegon IV -> Daeron II -> Aerys I

Aerys I is succeeded by his brother, Maekar, then we have three more parent-child successions: Maekar -> Aegon V -> Jaehaerys II -> Aerys II.

If Dany is eventually crowned, it would be the first time in Westeros that the throne has passed through five subsequent generations of Targaryens in the same line (ignoring the Baratheon dynasty breaking that up, obviously).  If Aegon VI ascends (and we accept him as Rhaegar's son), it would only be the second time that the crown has passed from grandfather to grandson amongst Targaryens, hearkening back to Jaehaerys I -> Viserys I.  It would be kind of interesting to consider those contrasts: Jaehaerys I, the great conciliator, with a long and peaceful reign, contrasted with Aerys II, the mad king who broke the seven kingdoms.  Viserys I's reign seemed to, for the most part, carry on the peace of his grandfather's; would Aegon VI's carry on the madness of his grandfather's?

I also wonder if there's something to being a full Targaryen (i.e. product of a sibling marriage) versus not, but I need to look into it more.

Targaryen on both sides:

Aegon I; Aenys; Maegor; Viserys I; Aegon III; Viserys II; Aegon IV; Daeron II; Aerys II; Daenerys

Targaryen on one side:

Jaehaerys I; Aegon II; Daeron I; Baelor; Aerys I; Maekar; Aegon V; Jaehaerys II; Aegon VI*

 

 

 

[No One of Importance]

Sorry for posting three in a row - after months of reading, I finally made an account to contribute, and I'm a little drunk with power.  Anyway, I never noticed (though I'm sure many others have) that Dany's vision in the HotU

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In one room, a beautiful woman sprawled naked on the floor while four little men crawled over her.  They had rattish pointed faces and tiny pink hands, like the servitor who had brought her the glass of shade.  One was pumping between her thighs.  Another savaged her breasts, worrying at the nipples with his wet red mouth, tearing and chewing."

is pretty well echoed by Jamie's recollections of Aerys and Rhaella:

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Jamie had only seen Rhaella once after that, the morning of the day she left for Dragonstone.  The queen had been cloaked and hooded as she climbed inside the royal wheelhouse that would take her down Aegon's High Hill to the waiting ship, but he heard her maids whispering after she was gone.  They said the queen looked as if some beast had savaged her, clawing at her thighs and chewing on her breasts.

Is Dany seeing her own conception?  Why is the part of Aerys played by "four little men"?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

35 minutes ago, No One of Importance said:

Sorry for posting three in a row - after months of reading, I finally made an account to contribute, and I'm a little drunk with power.  Anyway, I never noticed (though I'm sure many others have) that Dany's vision in the HotU

is pretty well echoed by Jamie's recollections of Aerys and Rhaella:

Is Dany seeing her own conception?  Why is the part of Aerys played by "four little men"?

Not her own conception, but the destruction of Westeros (the woman) by the four Kings who claim that title at that moment (the little men).

[No One of Importance]

Just now, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Not her own conception, but the destruction of Westeros (the woman) by the four Kings who claim that title at that moment.

Right, I get that interpretation, but I'm trying to make sense of the clear parallels between that vision and Jamie's recollection of Rhaella.

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Not her own conception, but the destruction of Westeros (the woman) by the four Kings who claim that title at that moment (the little men).

Well, that seems to be the most popular interpretation. 

The first vision Daenerys sees in the House of the Undying Ones, of the beautiful woman sprawled naked on the floor, is a foreshadowing for the reader of what is to come in the House of the Undying chapter and a clue as to what is really happening. The Undying are trying to trap Daenerys so that they can draw upon her power.

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"Blue lips speak only lies, isnt that what Xaro told you? Why do you care what the warlocks whispered? All they wanted was to suck the life from you, you know that now."

Jorah to Daenerys, Daenerys V, Clash

I think it's a warning of what waits for her in the HOTU. Keep in mind this is the first vision. Later Dany comes to a set of ebony & weirwood doors. Beyond the doors was a great hall and a splendor of wizards. FOUR wizards were described (a kingly man/wizard king, a woman with a bare breast, a warrior & a handsome man). Then Dany passed the old grey door into the chamber with the blue heart. There were figures around a table no more than blue shadows. only two were described, echoing the first two wizards in the previous room (an old man wrinkled and hairless & an ancient woman with one withered breast left bare). After Drogo went off on them she found them reaching, pulling, stroking, tugging at her clothes, touching, twining fingers through her hair, a hand on her breast twisting her nipple, teeth finding her throat, a mouth descending on one eye licking, sucking biting...

[Walda]

Since the first time I read Clash of Kings Ch.33, I have been looking for a rational way 

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the steel of his [Renly's w.] gorget parted like cheesecloth beneath the shadow of a blade (ACoK , Ch.33 Catelyn IV)

And now I think I have found one:

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opening Cleon the Great from shoulder to hip with one blow of his curved Valyrian arakh. Frog did not see it, but those who did claimed Cleon’s copper armor rent like silk, and from within came an awful stench and a hundred wriggling grave worms. Cleon had been dead after all.(ADwD, Ch.25 The Windblown)

(Mayhaps I'll elaborate on this in another thread, but at the moment, I'm just thrilled to have finally picked up on the possibility that Renly's armour was mostly copper.)

[PrettyPig]

6 hours ago, No One of Importance said:

Sorry for posting three in a row - after months of reading, I finally made an account to contribute, and I'm a little drunk with power.  Anyway, I never noticed (though I'm sure many others have) that Dany's vision in the HotU

is pretty well echoed by Jamie's recollections of Aerys and Rhaella:

 

Niiiiiiice.    Excellent catch.  Parallels and echoes are kindof my thing and I totally missed this one.   

I have about 50 different crackpot interpretations I could throw at it, but I think I want to mull on it a bit.

[No One of Importance]

On 4/21/2016 at 0:21 AM, Lost Melnibonean said:

Compare this...

To this...

Arya and Sandor both recall Sansa testifying in support of Joffrey, when she actually testified that she had insufficient recollection. 

Unless Sansa made an initial statement that we didn't get to see.

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 hours ago, No One of Importance said:

Unless Sansa made an initial statement that we didn't get to see.

Reread the chapter. (I can't post the whole thing.) You'll see that doesn't work. 

[KingofSothoryos]

I never noticed that Ser Wayman Royce yells "For Robert" when he makes his last ditch attack against the Other in the Prologue to AGOT. I always thought it was Robert Baratheon, but I wonder if it was for Sweet Robin? Always surprised me that he didn't yell "the Eyrie" or "Runestone!" I guess he was too new to yell "For the Watch!"

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

45 minutes ago, KingofSothoryos said:

I never noticed that Ser Wayman Royce yells "For Robert" when he makes his last ditch attack against the Other in the Prologue to AGOT. I always thought it was Robert Baratheon, but I wonder if it was for Sweet Robin? Always surprised me that he didn't yell "the Eyrie" or "Runestone!" I guess he was too new to yell "For the Watch!"

Why would he yell out for the five year old son of his former liege? Jon Arryn was still alive at that point.