Wow, I Never Noticed That, v. 14

[Clegane'sPup]

11 minutes ago, DarkSister1001 said:

Agreed.  Arya was referring to Jaq but the Kindly Man sounded like he knew what the magic was that she was asking about even if he didn't know the man by name. 

So it’s kinda a mish mash. Mummers change their faces with artifice. Sorcerers use glamors.  According to the Kindly man the face Arya puts on is as true and solid as the face Arya was born with.

[Lost Melnibonean]

When Bran and Co. reach the top of Queenscrown, he observes the mountains "grey and green" in the distance. Having grown up in the the L.A. Basin looking at mountains in the distance every day, and having spent a fair amount of time in verdant, mountainous Colombia, I thought this description odd. White and gray, or white, or even purple would make more sense to me than grey and green. 

[Walda]

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“Left the city?” Ned had counted on Renly’s support.
“He took his leave through a postern gate an hour before dawn, accompanied by Ser Loras Tyrell and some fifty retainers,” Varys told them. “When last seen, they were galloping south in some haste, no doubt bound for Storm’s End or Highgarden.”
So much for Renly and his hundred swords.

(AGoT, Ch.49 Eddard XIV)

So I took it as given that Renly was inclined to exaggerate - later, when he invites Catelyn to 'count the stars', I couldn't help suspecting he had instructed every man in his army to tend two camp fires before he left for dinner. Catelyn picks him up when he attempts to augment his forces with Stannis's:

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"And never forget my brother Stannis, who holds Dragonstone and commands the lords of the narrow sea." (ACoK, Ch.22 Catelyn II)

also, when he sees Barristan is not with Stannis,

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 “Do you think a few bolts of cloth will make you king?”
“Tyrell swords will make me king. Rowan and Tarly and Caron will make me king, with axe and mace and warhammer. Tarth arrows and Penrose lances, Fossoway, Cuy, Mullendore, Estermont, Selmy, Hightower, Oakheart, Crane, Caswell, Blackbar, Morrigen, Beesbury, Shermer, Dunn, Footly … even House Florent, your own wife’s brothers and uncles, they will make me king."

(ACoK, Ch.31 Catelyn III)

But I'm beginning to think Renly wasn't such a great liar after all. Petyr Baelish practically confirms Renly could get 100 swords, when Eddard tells him he is making Stannis the King:

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“And you without an army.” Littlefinger toyed with the dagger on the table, turning it slowly with a finger. “There is small love lost between Lord Renly and the Lannisters. Bronze Yohn Royce, Ser Balon Swann, Ser Loras, Lady Tanda, the Redwyne twins … each of them has a retinue of knights and sworn swords here at court.”

(AGoT, Ch.47 Eddard XIII)

Renly had thirty, Loras had twenty.

If Bronze Yohn, Ser Balon, Lady Tanda and the Redwyne twins each had a dozen household guards, that brings the tally up to 98, and that is not including the swords of Robar Royce, Donnel Swann, Horras and Hobber themselves.

As it turns out, all the above families are schmoozing with Baelish behind the scenes. The Royces and the Swanns are clearly distributing the backing of their families among the kings, the Redwyne twins find themselves obligatory guests of the Lannisters and unable to escape and go over to Renly as they no doubt intended. Lady Tanda, most interesting of all, appears to be a fifth column supporter of the Antler insurgency. 

Baelish either doesn't know or doesn't care to let Eddard know about Bryce Caron and the Mertyns (and likely the Rambtons, and the Masseys, maybe even the Wyls, who were also at the Hands Tourney, that Renly was clearly using as a cover for recruiting support) but it is clear that if Renly's swords are not actually coming from Petyr Baelish, then Petyr Baelish is keeping count of them and 'dining' with them on every occasion (or at least I surmise from the colours of his raiment and the dust on his boots.)

Also, if we look at the people the crown owes money to, the Baratheon crown is already indebted to the Tyrells. And the four members of Jon Arryn's household that stayed in Kings Landing and were known to Baelish included the girl that married one of Renly's grooms. I think this means King Renly was a Baelish pawn all along. And he was actually fairly accurate about the number of his supporters.

[No One of Importance]

I never noticed that the winch cage at the wall can go down either side (north or south).  When Jon goes to treat with (or assassinate) Mance right before Stannis arrives, he takes the cage down to the northern side of the wall.  I though at first that GRRM had just skipped Jon walking through the tunnel, but he makes a note that "the gate was sealed with rubble."

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Walda said:

So I took it as given that Renly was inclined to exaggerate - later, when he invites Catelyn to 'count the stars', I couldn't help suspecting he had instructed every man in his army to tend two camp fires before he left for dinner. Catelyn picks him up when he attempts to augment his forces with Stannis's:

also, when he sees Barristan is not with Stannis,

But I'm beginning to think Renly wasn't such a great liar after all. Petyr Baelish practically confirms Renly could get 100 swords, when Eddard tells him he is making Stannis the King:

Renly had thirty, Loras had twenty.

If Bronze Yohn, Ser Balon, Lady Tanda and the Redwyne twins each had a dozen household guards, that brings the tally up to 98, and that is not including the swords of Robar Royce, Donnel Swann, Horras and Hobber themselves.

As it turns out, all the above families are schmoozing with Baelish behind the scenes. The Royces and the Swanns are clearly distributing the backing of their families among the kings, the Redwyne twins find themselves obligatory guests of the Lannisters and unable to escape and go over to Renly as they no doubt intended. Lady Tanda, most interesting of all, appears to be a fifth column supporter of the Antler insurgency. 

Baelish either doesn't know or doesn't care to let Eddard know about Bryce Caron and the Mertyns (and likely the Rambtons, and the Masseys, maybe even the Wyls, who were also at the Hands Tourney, that Renly was clearly using as a cover for recruiting support) but it is clear that if Renly's swords are not actually coming from Petyr Baelish, then Petyr Baelish is keeping count of them and 'dining' with them on every occasion (or at least I surmise from the colours of his raiment and the dust on his boots.)

Also, if we look at the people the crown owes money to, the Baratheon crown is already indebted to the Tyrells. And the four members of Jon Arryn's household that stayed in Kings Landing and were known to Baelish included the girl that married one of Renly's grooms. I think this means King Renly was a Baelish pawn all along. And he was actually fairly accurate about the number of his supporters.

As I have argued before, I think Petyr and Renly and Loras were in cahoots. Consider this...

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Why were LF's boots dusty from riding just before he betrayed the Ned?

As another member of this forum said, "This is not simple dust from running aroung KL. The dust and wearing the same clothes indicates he left the city overnight. Hmmm..." And added, "We know that LF brokered Tyrion's deal with the Tyrells after Renly's death. But is there any evidence to suggest that LF met with Renly and Loras as they fled KL?" 

Perhaps Renly, not Varys, told Petyr that Robert named Eddard regent and protector!

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"Now look at the other side of the coin. Joffrey is but twelve, and Robert gave you the regency, my lord. You are the Hand of the King and Protector of the Realm. The power is yours, Lord Stark. All you need do is reach out and take it. Make your peace with the Lannisters. Release the Imp. Wed Joffrey to your Sansa. Wed your younger girl to Prince Tommen, and your heir to Myrcella. It will be four years before Joffrey comes of age. By then he will look to you as a second father, and if not, well . . . four years is a good long while, my lord. Long enough to dispose of Lord Stannis. Then, should Joffrey prove troublesome, we can reveal his little secretand put Lord Renly on the throne."

Eddard XIII, Game 47

The next quote points to the relatively long, friendly relationship between Petyr and Renly...

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He is a child still, Stannis declared, his anger ringing loud in the empty hall, a thieving child who thinks to snatch the crown off my brow.What has Renly ever done to earn a throne? He sits in council and jests with Littlefinger, and at tourneys he dons his splendid suit of armor and allows himself to be knocked off his horse by a better man. That is the sum of my brother Renly, who thinks he ought to be a king. I ask you, why did the gods inflict me with brothers? 

Prologue, Clash

And this points to the favorable relationship Petyr has with Loras...

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"I am of the king's council, yet not the king's blood, so I would make a poor hostage. I knew Ser Loras passing well when he was here at court, and gave him no cause to mislike me. Mace Tyrell bears me no enmity that I know of, and I flatter myself that I am not unskilled in negotiation."

Tyrion VIII, Clash 38

[Walda]

^ Totally with you on all the above. Petyr Baelish is probably the smoothest liar in the whole Song. It would be just like him to claim he heard it from Varys when he heard it from Renly.

The dusty boots came while he was wearing Arryn colours.

On the other occasions, I'm thinking he might have gone by sea.  Tarth is practically the only house with rose as a colour, although its quartered with blue, not purple. The black and white stripes on his cape could be the Mockingbird mimicking the Swann. Evensong and Stonehelm are both accessible by sea (and going around the coast in a small sailing ship would be faster than travelling the roads, if the winds were right.)

I'm wondering if he has family, or a residence, in Braavos. If he is sufficiently Braavosi to moor in the Purple Harbour. The dark cloak lined with fur, and the purple doublet with the mocking bird on it, might pass for something like a man of business in Braavos might wear. Third generation, though. The purple doublet with the black mocking bird on it might also mimic the black portcullis on purple part of the Royce sigil.

Also, it seems to me that Petyr Baelish and Lord Varys are more co-operative than competitive. For instance, Dontos is a Baelish stooge, but Varys pays him for information, too. When Ser Shadrich met Brienne on the road to Duskendale, he was looking to Varys to pay him a bag of gold for Sansa. Then he shows up at the Eyrie in Littlefinger's pay.

ETA: And, after Loras and Renly leave Kings Landing, the next time they are seen they are heading up the Rose Road, towards Horn Hill. This suggests to me that they had a friend with a boat that could transport fifty two knights and horses to Oldtown at the ready. Yes, I think Petyr met with Renly and Loras before they left the city.  And yes, I think the dust on his boots came from outside Kings Landing. But I don't think the dust on his boots came from meeting with them. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

17 minutes ago, Walda said:

^ Totally with you on all the above. Petyr Baelish is probably the smoothest liar in the whole Song. It would be just like him to claim he heard it from Varys when he heard it from Renly.

The dusty boots came while he was wearing Arryn colours.

On the other occasions, I'm thinking he might have gone by sea.  Tarth is practically the only house with rose as a colour, although its quartered with blue, not purple. The black and white stripes on his cape could be the Mockingbird mimicking the Swann. Evensong and Stonehelm are both accessible by sea (and going around the coast in a small sailing ship would be faster than travelling the roads, if the winds were right.)

I'm wondering if he has family, or a residence, in Braavos. If he is sufficiently Braavosi to moor in the Purple Harbour. The dark cloak lined with fur, and the purple doublet with the mocking bird on it, might pass for something like a man of business in Braavos might wear. Third generation, though. The purple doublet with the black mocking bird on it might also mimic the black portcullis on purple part of the Royce sigil.

Also, it seems to me that Petyr Baelish and Lord Varys are more co-operative than competitive. For instance, Dontos is a Baelish stooge, but Varys pays him for information, too. When Ser Shadrich met Brienne on the road to Duskendale, he was looking to Varys to pay him a bag of gold for Sansa. Then he shows up at the Eyrie in Littlefinger's pay.

ETA: And, after Loras and Renly leave Kings Landing, the next time they are seen they are heading up the Rose Road, towards Horn Hill. This suggests to me that they had a friend with a boat that could transport fifty two knights and horses to Oldtown at the ready. Yes, I think Petyr met with Renly and Loras before they left the city. But I don't think the dust on his boots came from meeting with them. 

I am aware of the arguments that Varys and Petyr are in league, but I do not buy them. 

[Walda]

Yeah, they don't seem to have the same goals and motivations. Still, a lot of Petyr's help seems to come pre-owned from Varys, and visa versa.

Varys doesn't seem to lie about his whispers, though. The one where his little bird saw Loras and Renly et al. heading South on the road that leads to Highgarden and Storms End could be perfectly true and still be consistent with a ship in the bay at the point where the Rose Road divides from the Kings Road.

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 hours ago, Walda said:

Yeah, they don't seem to have the same goals and motivations. Still, a lot of Petyr's help seems to come pre-owned from Varys, and visa versa.

Varys doesn't seem to lie about his whispers, though. The one where his little bird saw Loras and Renly et al. heading South on the road that leads to Highgarden and Storms End could be perfectly true and still be consistent with a ship in the bay at the point where the Rose Road divides from the Kings Road.

And Lord Varys, assuming his whisperer or mutilated child saw Petyr meet with Renly and Loras, might have chosen not to reveal that information to Eddard's council or to Cersei, just as he chose not to expose Petyr's involvement in Jon Arryn's death, of which Varys was apparently aware. 

[Florina Laufeyson]

I never remembered or noticed Nimble Dick talking about the squishers in Feast. Like at all, until rereading, and then i  laughed for ten minutes straight cuz they sounded exactly like Deep Ones.

[Lost Melnibonean]

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“But my father was a friend of the Night’s Watch, and my uncle is First Ranger. He might know where the three-eyed crow lives. And Jon’s at Castle Black too.”

Bran III, Storm 40

Do you think Benjen knew about Bloodraven and his cave? 

[Clarrisa]

From Bloodravens wiki page -

His personal arms were a white dragon with red eyes breathing red flame on a black field.

I never noticed before, but kinda reminds me of Ghost -

[Fox of House McCloud]

Sorry if these have been posted before, but a couple things that came to me the other day:

-The Baratheons, a house essentially built by Aegon Targaryen (Aegon gave the Storm lands to Orys Baratheon after he conquered them - Orys was essentially a nobody (in title) prior to that) were the ones to ultimately topple his dynasty. It can't be a coincidence, and I'm starting to wonder if history will repeat itself again (as in, a house raised up by one of the major houses will end up bringing it down).

-In GoT, when Catelyn tells Ned that Robert is coming to visit, Ned says he hasn't seen Tommen since he was a baby, and guesses that he must be 5 now, to which Catelyn replies that he's 7... but in Ned's chapter when Robert arrives, he specifically recalls that he hasn't seen Robert since Balon's rebellion 9 years ago. So... when did he see Tommen (and Cersei, as she would no doubt be with her son if he was "still on her teat")?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

10 minutes ago, Fox of House McCloud said:

Sorry if these have been posted before, but a couple things that came to me the other day:

-The Baratheons, a house essentially built by Aegon Targaryen (Aegon gave the Storm lands to Orys Baratheon after he conquered them - Orys was essentially a nobody (in title) prior to that) were the ones to ultimately topple his dynasty. It can't be a coincidence, and I'm starting to wonder if history will repeat itself again (as in, a house raised up by one of the major houses will end up bringing it down).

-In GoT, when Catelyn tells Ned that Robert is coming to visit, Ned says he hasn't seen Tommen since he was a baby, and guesses that he must be 5 now, to which Catelyn replies that he's 7... but in Ned's chapter when Robert arrives, he specifically recalls that he hasn't seen Robert since Balon's rebellion 9 years ago. So... when did he see Tommen (and Cersei, as she would no doubt be with her son if he was "still on her teat")?

Several explanations are possible..

It has been proposed that Ned and Catelyn were visiting KL while Robert was away, coicidentally, and that this is when Ned saw Tommen and Cersei. Catelyn last saw her sister five years prior to AGOT, and Lord Varys says that it is a joy to see Catelyn after so many years. The thing that argues against the KL scenario is that Catelyn has not seen Baelish since his duel with Brandon in 282 AC, and LF would have been at court by the time Catelyn and Lysa last saw each other.

Another possible scenario is that Ned and Catelyn were travelling to, say, Riverrun, and Cersei was on her way to Casterly Rock without Robert, and they just happened to meet on the road.

[AemonsEyes]

In CoK Tyrion I, Tyrion has just returned to KL and Cersei is catching him up on certain events. Regarding Ser Barristan's dismissal she say "Joff wanted someone to blame for Robert's Death. Varys suggested Ser Barristan."

I never noticed Varys freeing up Ser Barristan so he could potentially recruit him for his own cause.

[Lost Melnibonean]

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Mirri Maz Duur had promised that she would never bear a living child. House Targaryen will end with me. That made her sad. 

And this...

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"There are two men in the world who I can trust, if I can find them. I will not be alone then." 

Suggest to me that Daenerys will not seek to fight Aegon, but rather to help him as Tyrion suggested. 

Now, it occurs to me that Daenerys might encourage Aegon to wed Arianne. 

[Lady bonehead]

I found the following passage from aCoK slightly startling (Arya):

"She placed the food at his elbow and did as he bid her, filling the room with flickering light and the scent of cloves. Bolton turned a few more pages with his finger, then closed the book and placed it carefully in the fire. He watched the flames consume it, pale eyes shining with reflected light. The old dry leather went up with a whoosh, and the yellow pages stirred as they burned, as if some ghost were reading them. "I will have no further need of you tonight," he said, never looking at her."

Obviously books were valuable objects.  Is this supposed to show us that Roose has a habit of destroying valuable things for no particular reason?  Or should we be curious about what was in the book?  Or maybe it was just the latest Dornish bodice-ripper?

[Ser Middlefinger]

I have something I never noticed before that I just read last night in a Clash of Kings. It's right after Arya hears at Harrenhall that her younger brothers are "dead". She sees Elmar Frey crying about the princess he was supposed to marry. He says to Arya "we've been dishonored, Aenys says. There was a bird from the Twins. I'll need to find someone else or be a septon." 

It wasn't until my third reread I realized the princess he is talking about is Arya since one of the Freys was to be betrothed to her. This is pretty ironic since he's always rude to her and she doesn't like him. Pretty small thing but kinda blew my mind that I never caught it.

[Ser Middlefinger]

15 hours ago, Lady bonehead said:

I found the following passage from aCoK slightly startling (Arya):

"She placed the food at his elbow and did as he bid her, filling the room with flickering light and the scent of cloves. Bolton turned a few more pages with his finger, then closed the book and placed it carefully in the fire. He watched the flames consume it, pale eyes shining with reflected light. The old dry leather went up with a whoosh, and the yellow pages stirred as they burned, as if some ghost were reading them. "I will have no further need of you tonight," he said, never looking at her."

Obviously books were valuable objects.  Is this supposed to show us that Roose has a habit of destroying valuable things for no particular reason?  Or should we be curious about what was in the book?  Or maybe it was just the latest Dornish bodice-ripper?

I read that last night and was wondering what that book was too

[Ser Middlefinger]

On Monday, May 16, 2016 at 5:03 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

When Bran and Co. reach the top of Queenscrown, he observes the mountains "grey and green" in the distance. Having grown up in the the L.A. Basin looking at mountains in the distance every day, and having spent a fair amount of time in verdant, mountainous Colombia, I thought this description odd. White and gray, or white, or even purple would make more sense to me than grey and green. 

I can agree with you there. I spent a lot of my childhood living by the Rocky mountains. Although the are covered with evergreens from a distance they always looked a bluish purple