Jon Snow = Aegon in Daenerys' vision

[WSmith84]

40 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

oh come on, of course there are quotes... I just think you take them in your head as this set story and it's hard to imagine it differently... How old was Rob when he first met Jon as a baby? We don't know... Just that Jon was waiting for him in Winterfell...

there is a lot of mystery here and I think people rule things out that because of assumptions and not from the text...

Its particularly of interest when there are a number of quotes that make me suspicious... Cat calls out Lewin as the one who delivered her children, and he's also the one making seemingly out of character Bastard comments. 

I don't recall ever reading something that rules this out...

but shit, it's all speculation and I understand the doubt

My doubt doesn't come from the fact that we've been told Jon is younger, but that no one (particularly Cat) suspects otherwise. If Jon had been older than Robb by anything more than a few days when the two were together as infants, it would be noticeable. You don't have to be a parent, or have any real experience with babies to notice the difference.

[Raisin' Bran]

11 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

My doubt doesn't come from the fact that we've been told Jon is younger, but that no one (particularly Cat) suspects otherwise. If Jon had been older than Robb by anything more than a few days when the two were together as infants, it would be noticeable. You don't have to be a parent, or have any real experience with babies to notice the difference.

A few days? How old do you think Robb was when he arrived in Winterfell? Babies are generally not fit for travel for at least 6 weeks after birth, and travel from the Riverlands to the North would be hard to say the least, lots of risk of exposure.

I can tell you that people would almost always guess the age of my kids wrong when they were babies (off sometimes by a 2 or more months).

My youngest is almost 3. By the time the older 2 were that age they were already looking like little boys, my youngest still has a lot of his baby features, he could easily be guessed to be barely older than 2. 

On top of that, Jon is continually referred to as short in AGoT, making Jon appear younger than he actually is.

[WSmith84]

3 minutes ago, Raisin' Bran said:

A few days? How old do you think Robb was when he arrived in Winterfell? Babies are generally not fit for travel for at least 6 weeks after birth, and travel from the Riverlands to the North would be hard to say the least, lots of risk of exposure.

I was saying unless the age difference was a few days, it would be noticeable.

I can tell you that people would almost always guess the age of my kids wrong when they were babies (off sometimes by a 2 or more months).

I'm not saying that one can guess the age of a child, merely that one could notice the age difference between two very young children of differing ages. I can do it, and I'm a barely-functioning childless adult. I think Catelyn would be observing Jon very closely if she was worried about him potentially threatening Robb's position and made note that the boy seemed to be more advanced than her own.

My youngest is almost 3. By the time the older 2 were that age they were already looking like little boys, my youngest still has a lot of his baby features, he could easily be guessed to be barely older than 2. 

On top of that, Jon is continually referred to as short in AGoT, making Jon appear younger than he actually is.

 

[WSmith84]

3 minutes ago, Raisin' Bran said:

A few days? How old do you think Robb was when he arrived in Winterfell? Babies are generally not fit for travel for at least 6 weeks after birth, and travel from the Riverlands to the North would be hard to say the least, lots of risk of exposure.

I was saying unless the age difference was a few days, it would be noticeable.

I can tell you that people would almost always guess the age of my kids wrong when they were babies (off sometimes by a 2 or more months).

I'm not saying that one can guess the age of a child, merely that one could notice the age difference between two very young children of differing ages. I can do it, and I'm a barely-functioning childless adult. I think Catelyn would be observing Jon very closely if she was worried about him potentially threatening Robb's position and made note that the boy seemed to be more advanced than her own.

My youngest is almost 3. By the time the older 2 were that age they were already looking like little boys, my youngest still has a lot of his baby features, he could easily be guessed to be barely older than 2. 

On top of that, Jon is continually referred to as short in AGoT, making Jon appear younger than he actually is.

 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

1 hour ago, Raisin' Bran said:

A few days? How old do you think Robb was when he arrived in Winterfell? Babies are generally not fit for travel for at least 6 weeks after birth, and travel from the Riverlands to the North would be hard to say the least, lots of risk of exposure.

I can tell you that people would almost always guess the age of my kids wrong when they were babies (off sometimes by a 2 or more months).

My youngest is almost 3. By the time the older 2 were that age they were already looking like little boys, my youngest still has a lot of his baby features, he could easily be guessed to be barely older than 2. 

On top of that, Jon is continually referred to as short in AGoT, making Jon appear younger than he actually is.

Thank you, it's not even like they would have been newborns when Jon and Rob first met... glad I'm not the only one who thinks the age thing is at least possible.

As far as I can tell people seem to treat the two, Rob and Jon, as about the same age...

People suggest Jon is a few months younger than Rob...

I suggest he is a few months older than Rob...

Of all the parts of this theory... This is what people get hung up on? 

To me it seems like on of the foggy bits of timeline that could be intentionally foggy for just this reason...

but maybe I've gone off the deep end

[Raisin' Bran]

5 hours ago, WSmith84 said:

I was saying unless the age difference was a few days, it would be noticeable.

Perhaps there was a language barrier problem. Your profile states that you live in Brazil, so I will assume your primary language is Portugese.

I was not suggesting that you thought that Robb was a few days old when he arrived at Winterfell. I was suggesting that as children get older, the differences in age become less and less noticeable. You may be able to tell apart new born babies (less than 2 months) whose ages are only a few days different, but after that it becomes more difficult. You generally cannot tell which baby is older when their births were separated by a few days when they are 6 months. Often you may guess based on size, and if the younger baby eats more, that baby will generally be larger, despite being younger.

This was the point when I said that commonly my children would be assumed to be either older or younger (it varied from person to person) than they actually were. To support that not only newborn babies were guessed wrong but kids from 2 - 4 years old might be as well, I mentioned that my youngest is almost 3 years old (35 months), though because of his baby features, people may still guess him to be just barely older than 2 years (26 months). Hmm 35-26=9 months, interesting.

I hope I have explained myself a little better this time.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

^ I am not entirely sure what the disagreement is about, but if i get it correctly, and in relation to the OP, then no, I don't think that Jon could convincingly pass for more or less the same age as Robb if he's old enough to have been born prior to Rhaegar leaving the ToJ for the Trident. Catelyn is not some random person who sees Jon once, they live together and she's worried about his existence, so she'd notice baby developement stuff like movement control, walking, talking, growing teeth and the like. Unless Jon is severely slow in his development in all of those aspects (which is quite unlikely, IMO) Catelyn would notice and suspect, and voice her suspicion in her POV.

[Raisin' Bran]

45 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

^ I am not entirely sure what the disagreement is about, but if i get it correctly, and in relation to the OP, then no, I don't think that Jon could convincingly pass for more or less the same age as Robb if he's old enough to have been born prior to Rhaegar leaving the ToJ for the Trident. Catelyn is not some random person who sees Jon once, they live together and she's worried about his existence, so she'd notice baby developement stuff like movement control, walking, talking, growing teeth and the like. Unless Jon is severely slow in his development in all of those aspects (which is quite unlikely, IMO) Catelyn would notice and suspect, and voice her suspicion in her POV.

The way I see Catelyn is that she would want to see and know as little of Jon as possible. Ned told her that Jon is younger, and she is content with that. She only sees what she wants to see, Robb is heir. end of story.

[WSmith84]

56 minutes ago, Raisin' Bran said:

Perhaps there was a language barrier problem. Your profile states that you live in Brazil, so I will assume your primary language is Portugese.

I was not suggesting that you thought that Robb was a few days old when he arrived at Winterfell. I was suggesting that as children get older, the differences in age become less and less noticeable. You may be able to tell apart new born babies (less than 2 months) whose ages are only a few days different, but after that it becomes more difficult. You generally cannot tell which baby is older when their births were separated by a few days when they are 6 months. Often you may guess based on size, and if the younger baby eats more, that baby will generally be larger, despite being younger.

This was the point when I said that commonly my children would be assumed to be either older or younger (it varied from person to person) than they actually were. To support that not only newborn babies were guessed wrong but kids from 2 - 4 years old might be as well, I mentioned that my youngest is almost 3 years old (35 months), though because of his baby features, people may still guess him to be just barely older than 2 years (26 months). Hmm 35-26=9 months, interesting.

I hope I have explained myself a little better this time.

No language barrier. I'm English and just live in Brasil, it was my own rushed reading that led to the mistake ^^

I think the age difference is probably more than a few days between the two boys, and hence differences would be quickly noted. And as ShadowCat Rivers pointed out, Cat would be seeing the boys every day. If Ned told her that Jon was younger, she'd surely start to question that when Jon starts walking first, or talking first, or teething first.

If Jon is just a few days older/younger than Robb, then sure it's possible that the differences would be too small to take note. Otherwise, someone (particularly Cat) would have noticed that one boy developed faster than the other. Now, if it's Robb that's doing so, all well and good. If it's Jon, then Cat would have reason to question Jon's age.

[MtnLion]

Thinking things through.  Jon was born less than a fortnight before Ned fought at the tower of joy.  From the tower Ned goes to Starfall, not just to return the sword, Dawn, but to hire passage on a ship to the north.  Caitlin leaves Riverrun with Robb as a newborn, and arrives at Winterfell to see Jon and his wetnurse already installed.  Caitlin judges that Jon is the product of Ned and some woman, after she and Ned married.  Ned stayed with her after the marriage long enough to have her pregnant, before returning tot he war.  From the storyline it appears that Jon's nameday occurs a month to a fortnight after Robb's nameday. 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

10 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I mean I think that's how we all read it the first time... But as with so many lines in the series, might there not be another layer?

Yes. Joffrey is taller than the other boys his age. Same as "Bastards are not allowed to damage young princes." for why Jon can't cross swords with Joff. Joff is the bastard, Jon is the prince.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

6 hours ago, Raisin' Bran said:

The way I see Catelyn is that she would want to see and know as little of Jon as possible. Ned told her that Jon is younger, and she is content with that. She only sees what she wants to see, Robb is heir. end of story.

Catelyn seemed to care about how Jon did in his lessons compared to her son. She never lost the fear that he might usurp her children's rights so no, she would be content with that. We know that, from her, and Jon's, POV. Seeing what she wants to see is not (most of the times) a trait of her character either.

[Raisin' Bran]

17 hours ago, WSmith84 said:

No language barrier. I'm English and just live in Brasil, it was my own rushed reading that led to the mistake ^^

I think the age difference is probably more than a few days between the two boys, and hence differences would be quickly noted. And as ShadowCat Rivers pointed out, Cat would be seeing the boys every day. If Ned told her that Jon was younger, she'd surely start to question that when Jon starts walking first, or talking first, or teething first.

If Jon is just a few days older/younger than Robb, then sure it's possible that the differences would be too small to take note. Otherwise, someone (particularly Cat) would have noticed that one boy developed faster than the other. Now, if it's Robb that's doing so, all well and good. If it's Jon, then Cat would have reason to question Jon's age.

 

10 hours ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

Catelyn seemed to care about how Jon did in his lessons compared to her son. She never lost the fear that he might usurp her children's rights so no, she would be content with that. We know that, from her, and Jon's, POV. Seeing what she wants to see is not (most of the times) a trait of her character either.

It seems that our discussion has run its course.  Thank you for explaining your viewpoints. For now I think we can agree to disagree. Maybe in the next book, all these arguments can be laid to rest.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Daenerys’s vision of Rhaegar wrestling with the prince-that-was-promised prophecy is one of three visions in the House of the Undying Ones that are designed by The George to develop our understanding of what is going on in his story. Here is the passage . . .

Quote

Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brother's hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac.

 

This signals that the man in the vision represents Rhaegar. Rhaegar would be expected to resemble Viserys since the two are brothers. Rhaegar, of course, had silver hair common to Valyrians. (Cersei III, Feast 12) And Rhaegar’s eyes were dark purple. (Cersei IV, Feast 17; The Griffin Reborn, Dance 61)

 

Quote

"Aegon," he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. "What better name for a king?"

 

Rhaegar must be the father of the baby boy in the vision since he is naming him, and the boy must be his legitimate, first born son since Rhaegar, the crown prince, assumes the boy will be king. This was stated explicitly by Jorah in Daenerys V, Clash 63. Interestingly, the reader would naturally assume that the woman breastfeeding Rhaegar’s infant heir, would be his mother, Elia. But later we learn that “Elia of Dorne was never the healthiest of women.” (Jaime II, Storm 11; see also Daenerys IV, Storm 42; The Griffin Reborn, Dance 61) Following the birth of Rhaenys, Elia was bedridden for six months, and she nearly died after Aegon was born. (The Griffin Reborn, Dance 61) That does not sound like a woman who would be nursing a newborn babe, especially given that she was a princess. On the other hand, the image does seem designed to suggest the woman was Elia.

 

Quote

"Will you make a song for him?" the woman asked.

"He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire."

 

Umm . . . wait a minute, that’s the title of the saga I’m reading! That was the first and only time the song of ice and fire was mentioned, (except when she discussed the vision with Jorah a few chapters later). So, we know the infant Aegon’s head was smashed beyond all recognition, leaving room for him to reappear or for another to claim his identity, and we know that Varys and Illyrio have been working to back young Aegon, who they claim is Rhaegar’s first-born son (although they never actually say it “on screen”). And we are all quite sure that Jon Snow, who has been cooling his heels up north on the periphery of the central plot, is the son of Rhaegar with a huge part yet to be played. It seems to me that the young Aegon we meet in Dance is a red herring, a lie to be slain, no?

 

Quote

He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. "There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. "The dragon has three heads."

 

Now that’s a big deal. “The dragon has three heads.” We know that the sigil of House Targaryen is a three headed dragon, and we have seen that Targaryens are called dragons (as Baratheons are called stags, Lannisters are called lions, Starks are called wolves, etc.). Assuming that Gregor did kill Rhaegar’s infant heir, the way Rhaegar’s eyes meet Daenerys’s eyes suggest that she is the first head of the dragon, and that we should expect two more. We already knew about Aemon, and he died anyway, so the second head of the dragon was not Aemon. The only other “dragon” to be revealed so far is young Aegon (black or red, a dragon is still a dragon), so Aegon is the second head of the dragon. And we all know who will be the third, don’t we?

 

Quote

He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way.

 

 

 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

On March 9, 2016 at 7:26 PM, MtnLion said:

Thinking things through.  Jon was born less than a fortnight before Ned fought at the tower of joy.  From the tower Ned goes to Starfall, not just to return the sword, Dawn, but to hire passage on a ship to the north.  Caitlin leaves Riverrun with Robb as a newborn, and arrives at Winterfell to see Jon and his wetnurse already installed.  Caitlin judges that Jon is the product of Ned and some woman, after she and Ned married.  Ned stayed with her after the marriage long enough to have her pregnant, before returning tot he war.  From the storyline it appears that Jon's nameday occurs a month to a fortnight after Robb's nameday. 

I don't think so, and I'm still waiting for any evidence that Jon is younger than Rob, besides Ned clearly false story...

Lets look at a quote:

 

"Aye, he told me. Lady Ashara Dayne. It's an old tale, that one. I heard it once at Winterfell, when I was no older than you are now." He took hold of her bridle firmly and turned her horse around. "I doubt there's any truth to it. But if there is, what of it? When Ned met this Dornish lady, his brother Brandon was still alive, and it was him betrothed to Lady Catelyn, so there's no stain on your father's honor. There's nought like a tourney to make the blood run hot, so maybe some words were whispered in a tent of a night, who can say? Words or kisses, maybe more, but where's the harm in that? Spring had come, or so they thought, and neither one of them was pledged."

"She killed herself, though," said Arya uncertainly. "Ned says she jumped from a tower into the sea." 

"So she did," Harwin admitted, as he led her back, "but that was for grief, I'd wager. She'd lost a brother, the Sword of the Morning." He shook his head. "Let it lie, my lady. They're dead, all of them. Let it lie . . . and please, when we come to Riverrun, say naught of this to your mother."

It seems pretty clear that the assumption is that Ned had his affair before he married Cat... While I don't think Jon is Ned's, it still clearly places Jon as older than Rob...

In fact, this seems to imply Jon was conceived at Harrenhall...

but of course don't tell Cat!

[MtnLion]

44 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

It seems pretty clear that the assumption is that Ned had his affair before he married Cat... While I don't think Jon is Ned's, it still clearly places Jon as older than Rob...

Not with the possible outcome being Jon.  You see there is a year after the tourney before Lyanna is abducted, and then there is a year of war before Robb is born.  I sincerely doubt that even a blind Caitlin would think that Ned had cheated after he married her to produce Jon if he is Ned and Ashara's from the tourney (two years older). 

There is a quote that you can dig up, if you care to, that points out that Robb has had his name day, and Jon has yet to have his.  Robb rubs it in that Jon is younger. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

15 minutes ago, MtnLion said:

Not with the possible outcome being Jon.  You see there is a year after the tourney before Lyanna is abducted, and then there is a year of war before Robb is born.  I sincerely doubt that even a blind Caitlin would think that Ned had cheated after he married her to produce Jon if he is Ned and Ashara's from the tourney (two years older). 

There is a quote that you can dig up, if you care to, that points out that Robb has had his name day, and Jon has yet to have his.  Robb rubs it in that Jon is younger. 

They are talking about Jon leading up to the quote above... That's the point of the conversation.

Ya so my brother is born in March, I was born in April, but I'm older...

the point is that it isn't clear at all from the text what their relative ages are, and yet everyone seems so certain.

 

Also I don't think the timeline is very clear about Lyanna and the tourney and the "kidnapping" either, but maybe I'm missing stuff, it's complicated and with enough conflicting information to make it hard to keep straight

[MtnLion]

2 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Ya so my brother is born in March, I was born in April, but I'm older...

the point is that it isn't clear at all from the text what there relative ages are, and yet everyone seems so certain

As I said, Robb goads Jon for being younger. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

1 minute ago, MtnLion said:

As I said, Robb goads Jon for being younger. 

Because that's what they've been told... Sansa calls him her bastard brother... Does that make it fact?

[LiveFirstDieLater]

On March 8, 2016 at 11:45 AM, WSmith84 said:

My doubt doesn't come from the fact that we've been told Jon is younger, but that no one (particularly Cat) suspects otherwise. If Jon had been older than Robb by anything more than a few days when the two were together as infants, it would be noticeable. You don't have to be a parent, or have any real experience with babies to notice the difference.

As per the quote above:

 

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I don't think so, and I'm still waiting for any evidence that Jon is younger than Rob, besides Ned clearly false story...

Lets look at a quote:

 

"Aye, he told me. Lady Ashara Dayne. It's an old tale, that one. I heard it once at Winterfell, when I was no older than you are now." He took hold of her bridle firmly and turned her horse around. "I doubt there's any truth to it. But if there is, what of it? When Ned met this Dornish lady, his brother Brandon was still alive, and it was him betrothed to Lady Catelyn, so there's no stain on your father's honor. There's nought like a tourney to make the blood run hot, so maybe some words were whispered in a tent of a night, who can say? Words or kisses, maybe more, but where's the harm in that? Spring had come, or so they thought, and neither one of them was pledged."

"She killed herself, though," said Arya uncertainly. "Ned says she jumped from a tower into the sea." 

"So she did," Harwin admitted, as he led her back, "but that was for grief, I'd wager. She'd lost a brother, the Sword of the Morning." He shook his head. "Let it lie, my lady. They're dead, all of them. Let it lie . . . and please, when we come to Riverrun, say naught of this to your mother."

It seems pretty clear that the assumption is that Ned had his affair before he married Cat... While I don't think Jon is Ned's, it still clearly places Jon as older than Rob...

In fact, this seems to imply Jon was conceived at Harrenhall...

but of course don't tell Cat!

It seems that the opinion of a common member of the Stark guard that Jon was conceived before Ned and Cat were married...

As well as seemingly the opinion of the Daynes, or at least this Dayne... Who was seemingly named after Ned.

In fact, the seemingly common belief (even Cersei seems to have heard the rumor) that Ashara was Jon's mom would appear to require that Jon was conceived (and born) before Rob.