Heresy 183

[Regular John Umber]

 speaking of, have we discussed the possible difference between ravens and crows in aSoIaF? I've tried to research their differences in actual mythology but have come up short.

[Armstark]

12 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Survival Armstark,that trumps all other.Preservation of self and loved ones and and if love ones pose a threat immediate and in the near future self preservation kicks in.I believe we are talking on a point that has nothing to do with if the wws are Craster's sons.

I'll bite a little  to your initial statement myths in our own world contradict that assertion.

" I will slay the children i have borne,there is none shall take them from my toils Medea."

Another version

My friends. I have determined to do the deed at once, to kill my children and leave this land, 
and not to falter or give my children over to let a hand more hostile murder them. 
They must die and since they must I, who brought them into the world, will kill them Medea.

It makes no sense logically doesn't it,but it was a thing.From a fate more worse they do it.

Tales in this book.

Old Nan:

"Women smothered their children rather than see them starve."

There was also talk of men walking off during the LN to avoid the same.Leaving their wives and kids to whom they couldn't watch suffer.

People make really messed up choices for what they think is best,or it could be selfish and be about what they can't handle.

I think it safe to say there are some things that supercede a mom's desire to protect her child.

Now to the important stuff let's look at what is said as it relates to Craster's son's outside the bullshit when the Old woman numero uno is not trying to make Sam believe Craster's boys have returned as supernatural beings.

" You have no sons,you expose them.Gilly said as much,you leave them in the woods.Sam,asos.pg 452.

From Gilly to Jon:

"A mother can't leave her son, or else she's cursed forever. Not a son. We saved him, Sam and me. Please. Please, m'lord. We saved him from the cold."

What Sam said is backed up by Gilly ,Craster leaves the boys exposed in the woods.The women know this and have known this and have allowed this.Instinct trumped by fear or survival it doesn't matter because the boys still get left in the woods.

Also,look what Gilly says in the bolded.Save them??? I thought they were alive and coming back as gods? Hmm.

Lastly, Jon and Mormont:

"He gives his sons to the wood.A long silence then: "Yes"................" I'd gladly send Yoren or Conwys to collect the boys."

Armstark all this goes to show that they leave the babies in the woods.My reason and your reason why is not important.They go in the woods and leave the babes out there exposed.

Ergo babe die from Hypothermia, hungry shadow cat/direwolf gets a free meal,fertilizer for Weirwood trees take your pick.

Let's say Craster decides to wait around and see who is picking up the babe ( perp = blue eyed cold shadows) out of curiosity that would be it.That would be the limit of their unbelievable eye witness account.We can't take Old woman #1 statement because its not reliable on account of there's no way they could know that.

Do you still want to answer the question as to why i believe this is going on? I left it out because it is irrelevant to Craster's sons = wws.

Well, obviously there are certain motivations that are stronger than the instinct to protect ones child, Craster's sons are proof of that at least. I believe it is fear of the wrath of Craster and the Gods. You still haven't given your reason. Yes, I want to know..

 

They do indeed leave them in the woods, but "saving them from the cold" is not just speaking of the weather. The cold is just another synonym for the demons made of ice. Whether they bring the cold or come with the cold does not matter here, what matters is that they come together. 

 

When Craster started this all he must have made some kind of deal with them and this is the primary source for the knowledge of what happens to the sons. No unreliable eye-witnesses required.

 

Finally I want to point out that I do not share BC's believe that the sons come back as Walkers, rather I believe they (quasi)die in the ritual that creates the Walkers. So Gilly's statement that they saved him makes perfect sense to me.

[kissdbyfire]

On 28/03/2016 at 8:23 AM, Armstark said:

I am not revealing that content since I want to stay away from the show ( I guess it is about that?)

 

The reason Benjen might give for his absence could be quite simple: he was injured and holed up somewhere, only now strong enough again to travel back. Basically the exact scenario LC Mormont hoped for when he made camp at the Fist to wait for Benjen to find them.

 

Of course that will leave us (the reader) wondering what really happened

There's a bit somewhere where Jon talks about Benjen hiding out in one of the abandoned castles at the Wall at some point, like it's some strategy he considers at some point... Sorry, I know this is awfully vague. I just remember reading something along those lines, and that got me thinking that Benjen might have tried something like that again. I'll add a link if ever find the quote. 

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, Regular John Umber said:

 speaking of, have we discussed the possible difference between ravens and crows in aSoIaF? I've tried to research their differences in actual mythology but have come up short.

There was a poster on one of the threads on the main board who argued strongly that crows and ravens are quite different species. He may well be right but I've always understood in my ignorance that ravens are just big crows and I strongly suspect that GRRM is writing of them in that sense too.

As to possible differences in ASoIF there is a pretty big and probably significant one. I have a feeling without troubling myself to go digging, that the ravens are largely those bred and employed by the maesters of the Citadel. Their scruffier cousins, in the wild [?] seem to be most frequently encountered working for the other lot

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Armstark said:

Well, obviously there are certain motivations that are stronger than the instinct to protect ones child, Craster's sons are proof of that at least. I believe it is fear of the wrath of Craster and the Gods. You still haven't given your reason. Yes, I want to know..

They do indeed leave them in the woods, but "saving them from the cold" is not just speaking of the weather. The cold is just another synonym for the demons made of ice. Whether they bring the cold or come with the cold does not matter here, what matters is that they come together. 

When Craster started this all he must have made some kind of deal with them and this is the primary source for the knowledge of what happens to the sons. No unreliable eye-witnesses required.

Finally I want to point out that I do not share BC's believe that the sons come back as Walkers, rather I believe they (quasi)die in the ritual that creates the Walkers. So Gilly's statement that they saved him makes perfect sense to me.

As to the last I'm prepared to be flexible because come what may the changeling magic alters them so much that its open to question how much of Crasters sons are in there. Nevertheless, until proven otherwise I'm of the view that skinchanging of some kind is involved and probably sees the sons' souls transferred into bodies formed of cold ice.

There is actually an odd turn of phrase employed here by the women in that they refer to "Craster's sons" and "the sons" - not our sons

[Melifeather]

10 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I'm still not convinced by this particular argument, but I would add the comment that your line which I've quoted reminds me very much of the one about the Crone opening the door to let the first raven [or was it crow?] into the world

That is interesting, and I might be able to suggest an answer. When Bloodraven was Lord Commander, he disappeared after 13 years of command while on a ranging. The Drowned Man chapter suggests that he heard the Drowned God calling. Symbolically Damphair is Aemon  Targaryen and Euron is Bloodraven, but since my theory rests upon the characters doing the opposite of the past, Aemon wouldn't be the one believing or hearing, but he embraces Bloodraven (while Damphair runs from Euron) so I believe Bloodraven heard the "Drowned God" calling. 

Patchface tells us that the north is upside down, and compares the north symbolically as a "sea", so the "drowned men" in the Drowned Man chapter are the followers who live along the sea, or rather the Nights Watch, therefore the Drowned God of the sea are the old gods of the Children.

If Bloodraven heard, and it appears he must have, then the opening of the door to let a "raven" in was him.

 

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

There's a bit somewhere where Jon talks about Benjen hiding out in one of the abandoned castles at the Wall at some point, like it's some strategy he considers at some point... Sorry, I know this is awfully vague. I just remember reading something along those lines, and that got me thinking that Benjen might have tried something like that again. I'll add a link if ever find the quote. 

Benjen thought it would be wise to periodically send a group of men to occupy one of the abandoned castles to give the appearance of a larger watch, and to keep a better eye on security.

 

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Benjen thought it would be wise to periodically send a group of men to occupy one of the abandoned castles to give the appearance of a larger watch, and to keep a better eye on security.

That's vaguely what I remember and probably tied in with the dream for spring conversation. However if Benjen really were to be hiding out in a castle or a cave or anywhere else - after all this time - that would obviously raise very big questions as to why and who he really owes allegiance to.

[BigDunk]

Hi long term lurker here.

 

i think i have found a series that George maybe took some ideas from or that may coincidentaly follow a similar story line.

is anyone familiar with the animated series 

full metal alchemist?

 

 

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy

Its always good when lurkers come in from the cold. The sources drawn upon by GRRM are legion but I's suspect this isn't one of them since the series wasn't published until 2001, quite some time after this happy tale of everyday country-folk kicked off.

That's not to say that there isn't an indirect connection in that a lot of the apparent parallels which we see or think we see actually arise from GRRM and A. N. Other drawing upon common sources - an obvious one being Frazer's Golden Bough, where a lot of the Holly King and other Celtic stuff comes from.

[DarkSister1001]

Hi all!  I've been here for a while but only lurked on Hersey.  Love all the discussions here.  Mind if I toss in my 2 cents?

21 hours ago, Black Crow said:

That's vaguely what I remember and probably tied in with the dream for spring conversation. However if Benjen really were to be hiding out in a castle or a cave or anywhere else - after all this time - that would obviously raise very big questions as to why and who he really owes allegiance to.

It would not surprise me if Benjen were in a cave and was tended/healed/helped by the CotF.  I don't see any reason to think that the CotF in BRs cave are the only ones left.  When Bran talks with Yoren on his way down from the Wall with Tyrion Bran blurts out that the CotF could help Benjen.  I have not given up hope on that yet and I don't see any reason why that could not be the case.

[Black Crow]

22 minutes ago, DarkSister1001 said:

Hi all!  I've been here for a while but only lurked on Hersey.  Love all the discussions here.  Mind if I toss in my 2 cents?

Not at all, post away and welcome to Heresy.

As you'll probably have gathered if you've been following the discussion closely, Benjen being with the three-fingered tree-huggers is certainly a possibility; indeed I'd go so far as to say probably the only outcome which might see him return alive, but the implications of this may not be as straightforward as Bran hoped given that the tree-huggers are not necessarily the kindly elves which some people think them to be.

[DarkSister1001]

36 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Not at all, post away and welcome to Heresy.

As you'll probably have gathered if you've been following the discussion closely, Benjen being with the three-fingered tree-huggers is certainly a possibility; indeed I'd go so far as to say probably the only outcome which might see him return alive, but the implications of this may not be as straightforward as Bran hoped given that the tree-huggers are not necessarily the kindly elves which some people think them to be.

Thanks!  I agree.  Only about the last 4-5 pages of this particular thread.  I'll go further back so I'm not bringing up things already settled.   

[Black Crow]

Ah, nothing in heresy is ever settled. Its like a brush fire, it may settle down a little but then somebody blows on it and up it flares again.

[DarkSister1001]

On ‎3‎/‎21‎/‎2016 at 9:43 PM, Feather Crystal said:

@e1kabong IMO the Starks and the Daynes were once shields for the realm at their respective ends. The Starks in the north were the black knights with a fiery sword (the original Ice) and guarded the realm from ice magic, while the Daynes in the south are the white knights with an icy sword (Lightbringer) and guard the realm from fire magic.

When the Targaryens came and conquered Westeros they  usurped the Stark's role as shield in the North when Torrhen Stark knelt. The Starks furthered their alliance with the Targaryens when they were promised a marriage alliance when Cregan Stark signed the Pact of Ice and Fire, allying the north with the "blacks" which was a faction of Targaryens that supported Rhaenyra's claim to the throne after the death of King Viserys I.

I really like this.  I have always thought there was a connection between the Starks and Daynes.  It also gives us a hint into why the NW vows say "watchers on the wallS". 

On ‎3‎/‎22‎/‎2016 at 10:16 AM, Feather Crystal said:

There's a much bigger picture happening in the books than anyone has previously thought of. Through my work on the Wheel of Time project, along with the works of @weaselpie 's Bran the Timelord, @prettypig 's Marvel-ous essays, and a new project by @LynnS about the Hinges of the World, we have been able to make some connections that show Westeros is stuck in a type of Groundhog's Day situation where various characters are reliving lives, and we all think Bran has been manipulating the past in order to effect a different outcome for the future in order to defeat the Others. Whether you recognize that this is happening or not, some outcome needs to be changed, which hasn't been discovered by our little group on HoBaW, but we're making great progress and one of the things we're exploring is whether or  not Bran tried to change Jon's parents in order to position him "just so" and with the right tools at his disposal. Long story short, it may not make any difference who is behind the white walkers, just that there "is" somebody or group, and they need to be defeated.

I often wondered if a faction of the CotF accidentally created the Others.  They can't all be working together in unison all the time, that would be too perfect and not at all like GRRM.  I suspect they had their own Qyburn.  Someone (or several) who pushed limits that sometimes led to unexpected and terrible things.  It seems to me that the flooding of the Neck and the breaking of the Arm of Dorne were instances where perhaps blood magic was used and went awry.

I'm of the mind that the Others use the child sacrifices to make their weapons and armor in the same way the smith's of Qhoor use infants to rework Valyrian steel.

47 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Ah, nothing in heresy is ever settled. Its like a brush fire, it may settle down a little but then somebody blows on it and up it flares again.

Like herpes, got it.    JK!

[Melifeather]

34 minutes ago, DarkSister1001 said:

I really like this.  I have always thought there was a connection between the Starks and Daynes.  It also gives us a hint into why the NW vows say "watchers on the wallS". 

I often wondered if a faction of the CotF accidentally created the Others.  They can't all be working together in unison all the time, that would be too perfect and not at all like GRRM.  I suspect they had their own Qyburn.  Someone (or several) who pushed limits that sometimes led to unexpected and terrible things.  It seems to me that the flooding of the Neck and the breaking of the Arm of Dorne were instances where perhaps blood magic was used and went awry.

I'm of the mind that the Others use the child sacrifices to make their weapons and armor in the same way the smith's of Qhoor use infants to rework Valyrian steel.

Like herpes, got it.    JK!

We've read that magic is like a two edged sword with no safe way to wield it. You might solve one problem and a different one arises from the side effects.

I don't know if you caught that I've changed my opinion on who changed the reality in Westeros? I'm in the midst of a project that will likely take me 6 months to complete, so as new information reveals itself the theory changes! lol  I was positing that Bran was the one to open the hinge, but if you think about who currently has the most to gain or who may have a motive, it's looking more like Euron Greyjoy, plus there's the added evidence of Aeron Greyjoy repeatedly remembering a squeaky iron hinge. "Iron" is a known substance used in wards, and "squeaky" implies it's old, while "hinge" is suggestive it's talking about the Wall since Melisandre says it's one of the great hinges of the world. If Damphair was remembering a door opening, he'd say "door", but he's using the term "hinge", so it's pretty specific. Euron wants to conquer Westeros and take it by force, and he either doesn't know or doesn't care what the side effects will be by opening this "hinge", and I believe the side effect is a backdoor for the Others to enter the realm. It may be Bran's purpose then, to try to re-close the hinge before the Others get through.

[Black Crow]

58 minutes ago, DarkSister1001 said:

I often wondered if a faction of the CotF accidentally created the Others.  They can't all be working together in unison all the time, that would be too perfect and not at all like GRRM.  I suspect they had their own Qyburn.  Someone (or several) who pushed limits that sometimes led to unexpected and terrible things.  It seems to me that the flooding of the Neck and the breaking of the Arm of Dorne were instances where perhaps blood magic was used and went awry.

I'm of the mind that the Others use the child sacrifices to make their weapons and armor in the same way the smith's of Qhoor use infants to rework Valyrian steel.

My own view is that the three-fingered tree-huggers are the Others [hence the ambiguous term used to obscure that] and that the walkers were created deliberately by sacrificing the sons of those men who for whatever reason owed allegiance to them - like Craster and perhaps the Starks. While I agree that they may not all be "working together in unison" I'm very wary of looking for opposing factions. Some may be more strident than others in their pursuit of the conflict but I really don't see a good singers vs nasty singers situation.

And with that, to bed. Good night all.

[DarkSister1001]

3 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

We've read that magic is like a two edged sword with no safe way to wield it. You might solve one problem and a different one arises from the side effects.

I don't know if you caught that I've changed my opinion on who changed the reality in Westeros? I'm in the midst of a project that will likely take me 6 months to complete, so as new information reveals itself the theory changes! lol  I was positing that Bran was the one to open the hinge, but if you think about who currently has the most to gain or who may have a motive, it's looking more like Euron Greyjoy, plus there's the added evidence of Aeron Greyjoy repeatedly remembering a squeaky iron hinge. "Iron" is a known substance used in wards, and "squeaky" implies it's old, while "hinge" is suggestive it's talking about the Wall since Melisandre says it's one of the great hinges of the world. If Damphair was remembering a door opening, he'd say "door", but he's using the term "hinge", so it's pretty specific. Euron wants to conquer Westeros and take it by force, and he either doesn't know or doesn't care what the side effects will be by opening this "hinge", and I believe the side effect is a backdoor for the Others to enter the realm. It may be Bran's purpose then, to try to re-close the hinge before the Others get through.

Absolutely. 

I did catch that and I totally understand.  For the most part I stay open to all sorts of possibilities and have faith that even if our theories turn out to be incorrect, the George will do it in a way that we'll be happy to be wrong.  I like seeing all the di

I like your idea of the hinges.  In my Euron, the Abomination theory I wrote that the screaming iron hinges were symbolic of somewhere they shouldn't be.  Like Euron entering the mind of Aeron, Davos in the cells on Dragonstone, the dragons caged under the pyramid, Bran et al in the Tumbledown Tower, etc.  Either that or there's a seriously untapped market for WD-40 in Planetos.  I'm excited to read it when it's ready. 

16 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

My own view is that the three-fingered tree-huggers are the Others [hence the ambiguous term used to obscure that] and that the walkers were created deliberately by sacrificing the sons of those men who for whatever reason owed allegiance to them - like Craster and perhaps the Starks. While I agree that they may not all be "working together in unison" I'm very wary of looking for opposing factions. Some may be more strident than others in their pursuit of the conflict but I really don't see a good singers vs nasty singers situation.

And with that, to bed. Good night all.

Maybe not all working against each other either but perhaps just not on the same page.  I'm of a mind that BR and Leaf et al are working toward the same goal, but have a difference of opinions on how to get there. 

Good night!

[lokisnow]

On 3/28/2016 at 10:31 AM, Matthew. said:

Related to the interconnectedness that Martin has maintained, despite the scope of the story, I continue to be bothered by how, at least on the surface, the story of the WWs seems to be this mounting thing that's totally unrelated to the other stories and themes within the books. I say "seems," because I'm holding to a certain amount of faith that how they relate to the rest of the story that has been told thus far will become much more clear.

Nearly every theory I've seen for the WWs fails to adequately fit them into the existing narrative. There's plenty of logical theories about how they came to be, and how they fit into the 12,000+ year setting of Westeros, yet few theories that adequately answer how they fit into the story we're being told--which is not a story that's "about" the entire history of Westeros, but rather, a story that is rooted in a place and time, with specific themes.


Which causes me to ask once again: where do the white walkers fit in? Did Martin spend 5,000+ pages telling us one story, only to have the WWs arrive at the very end with an origin and motives that are largely unrelated? Or, like everything else, does the story of the present uprising of wights and WWs begin with the events that unfolded at Harrenhal?
 

My personal theory is that it is right there in the title: "A Song of Ice and Fire" a metaphor for "A cycle of Death and Life."

So far as I am concerned, the entirety of the supernatural within the world concerns itself with the balance--more specifically the lack thereof--between Death and Life.

the world is inherently unbalanced in magic because Life and Death are out of balance. This is why the seasons are magically out of whack--seasons often traditionally represented as a cycle of life and death.

 

Those supernatural folk north of the wall raise dead bodies to a simulacra of life to bring death to the living.

Those supernatural folk in the weirwoods are all about avoiding death keeping the memories intact and keeping the faces of the decedent within a weirwood 'alive'. 

Those supernatural folk in the house of the undying are all about avoiding death.

those supernatural folk of R'Hhollor are hundreds of years old and/or capable of restoring life to the dead.

Those supernatural folk on the isle of faces keep the memories of the decedents intact and alive within the preserved faces of the decedents, perhaps not giving the gift of death quite as completely as they claim.

That supernatural targaryen girl sent life into stone and resurrected an extinct species with the deaths of her brother, son and husband. 

 

Basically, I think the interconnectedness of the others fit into the story  by adhering to the life and death patterns we see in how magic is executed in all other instances within the story.

The conflict with the others is interconnected because this is a story that is ultimately about not accepting mortality. Mortals--especially humans--who as a species fear death. Mortals who turn to magic to avoid death, no matter their culture, backgrounds nor traditions, the world over, all mortals seek to avoid death.  The fit of the others into the story is of a force trying to restore balance to the cycle of death and life. Not a murderous impulse but a horrifically just one, as implacable as Solomon suggesting two women cut a baby evenly in two; an eye for an eye, the others seek to restore the correct balance of deaths in a world that has seen too much life.

 

And I think the wall is ultimately a result of an attempt to bottle up death, to wall off the "underworld" so to speak and contain death in such a way that an imbalance is created that allows some to avoid death.

And in so avoiding death, they throw death and life out of balance and in so doing they throw the world out of balance.

It is only in accepting their own mortality that the mortals can reach a detente with the others. it is only in accepting a balanced world, a disenchanted world, that mortals can achieve a 'victory' of sorts.  

It's not that they're trying to achieve the maester's goals. it's that magic is representative of the imbalance of life and death, and in a world in which life and death are balanced is a world in which there is no magic--nor magical seasons.

 

[Arry'sFleas]

Where is Bran?

AGOT, Jon 1. The king's visit to Winterfell.

The following is taking place in the Great Hall of Winterfell at the start of the welcoming feast for the king:

“..The procession had passed not a foot from the place he had been given on the bench, and Jon had gotten a good long look at them all...His lord father had come first, escorting the queen...Next had come King Robert himself, with lady Stark on his arm...After them came the children. Little Rickon first...Close behind came Robb...he had the princess Myrcella on his arm...His half-sisters escorted the royal princes...He was more interested in the pair that came behind [Joffrey]..The Lion and the Imp....The last of the high lords to enter were his uncle, Benjen Stark of the Night's Watch, and his father's ward, young Theon Greyjoy.”

 

Now this is dinner time, right? Surely Bran has not gone climbing some walls...

 

so why is Bran not in the procession?

[Black Crow]

I doubt that there's any significance this early in the game. Everybody is coming in two by two so I'd expect that Bran is with little Rickon and GRRM has just missed him. Happens to the best of us.