The seed is strong! The story of two boys.

[Nyrhex]

On 7.4.2016 at 6:12 PM, watcher of the night said:

However, this observation holds for every major family as all of them has very characteristic features, which seem to be inherited over hundreds of generations. It is safe to assume that these features have to be dominant otherwise they would have been lost long ago. Also note that very few families practicing a close inbreeding like the Targaryens yet these feature survive, so inbreeding cannot be the answer. It is not to say that each and every Starks looks like a prototipic Stark but most of them. Also it is the most unlikely that a Baratheon would look like a Lannister (cough, cough, Joff and Tommen) or a Stark would look like a Martell.

 

Ok, so let say we have two boys. One has the Stark look: lean boy with a long face and grey eyes. The other one has the Targ look: silver/gold hair with violet eyes. Which families do they belong to?

While all families have a certain level of general similarity (and usually shared with thier ethnic group), the Baratheons are the only ones to show consistant, and absolute repetitiveness of certain traits regardless of any different combination of parents. Black hair, blue eyes (the only exception to this is Renly, which GRRM admitted to forget to change to blue from an early draft and later retcon-ed to blue that may seem like green because of the green he wore...). No matter if the Durrandon (Orys Baratheon had black eyes, so this is a Durrandon thing) is the father or the mother, and no matter how many children, the traits stay the same. Strong build for males is also very common and IIRC also in every single Durrandon male, and the shape of the jaw had been brought up as well a few times. The Targs also had different combinations without marrying into other families. Different shades of eye color and hair. The Seed Is Strong fits with the Durrandons (and after Orys, the Baratheons who basically continure the female Durrandon line) with how ridiculously persistant it is. Possibly because they literally have divine blood as an origin story.

The Targs also look like pretty much every noble, whore and peasant in the southern Free Cities. It is only a "Targ" look in Westeros, it is common as hell in Essos with just beauty being repeated as exceptional for the dragonlords. But that usually goes hand in hand with money. The most beatiful people in the world, or the best swordsmen, or the best riders, etc, are not all born into a limited group of nobles. Nobles simply have the money to spend on thier looks, training, etc. There have been Targs and Blackfyres not to enjoy this "otherworldly beauty" that the books make mention of. If a kid has silver hair and violet eyes, he can be the son of a king or the bastard of a whore. Or a Dayne or from another Stone Dornish house.

If you have a boy with a long face and grey eyes he can be a Stark, or he can be a peasnt from the area. Brandon and Ned's eyes were grey. Benjen's eyes were blue-grey. Jon's eyes are a grey so dark that it is almost black. The wiki says that Arya's eyes are grey, but I've found zero textual evidence regarding the color of her eyes. Same with Lyanna. Arya is said to be similar to her, but only in facial features, eye color was never mentioned as far as I could find.

Alys Karstark also has blue-grey eyes. Arnolf Karstark has grey eyes. Ser Marlon Manderly has slate-grey eyes. Roose Bolton has pale grey eyes. It's a common eye color in the North, as is the hair color. 

[Sigella]

On 7 april 2016 at 5:25 PM, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

(snip)

Which coincidentally is the Blackfyre look as well, as the difference between a Targaryen and a Blackfyre is mainly in the sigil.

Didn't the Blackfyre look consist of black hair?

 

[Sigella]

6 hours ago, Nyrhex said:

While all families have a certain level of general similarity (and usually shared with thier ethnic group), the Baratheons are the only ones to show consistant, and absolute repetitiveness of certain traits regardless of any different combination of parents. Black hair, blue eyes (the only exception to this is Renly, which GRRM admitted to forget to change to blue from an early draft and later retcon-ed to blue that may seem like green because of the green he wore...). No matter if the Durrandon (Orys Baratheon had black eyes, so this is a Durrandon thing) is the father or the mother, and no matter how many children, the traits stay the same. Strong build for males is also very common and IIRC also in every single Durrandon male, and the shape of the jaw had been brought up as well a few times. The Targs also had different combinations without marrying into other families. Different shades of eye color and hair. The Seed Is Strong fits with the Durrandons (and after Orys, the Baratheons who basically continure the female Durrandon line) with how ridiculously persistant it is. Possibly because they literally have divine blood as an origin story.

The Targs also look like pretty much every noble, whore and peasant in the southern Free Cities. It is only a "Targ" look in Westeros, it is common as hell in Essos with just beauty being repeated as exceptional for the dragonlords. But that usually goes hand in hand with money. The most beatiful people in the world, or the best swordsmen, or the best riders, etc, are not all born into a limited group of nobles. Nobles simply have the money to spend on thier looks, training, etc. There have been Targs and Blackfyres not to enjoy this "otherworldly beauty" that the books make mention of. If a kid has silver hair and violet eyes, he can be the son of a king or the bastard of a whore. Or a Dayne or from another Stone Dornish house.

If you have a boy with a long face and grey eyes he can be a Stark, or he can be a peasnt from the area. Brandon and Ned's eyes were grey. Benjen's eyes were blue-grey. Jon's eyes are a grey so dark that it is almost black. The wiki says that Arya's eyes are grey, but I've found zero textual evidence regarding the color of her eyes. Same with Lyanna. Arya is said to be similar to her, but only in facial features, eye color was never mentioned as far as I could find.

Alys Karstark also has blue-grey eyes. Arnolf Karstark has grey eyes. Ser Marlon Manderly has slate-grey eyes. Roose Bolton has pale grey eyes. It's a common eye color in the North, as is the hair color. 

Its about how some genes are more dominant than others. The Durrandonds black eyes must be exceptionally so, if they up the Baratheon blues. Doesn't have to be of divine origin.

No they don't. Its mostly seen in the old Freeholds (which were populated at part, and founded, by Valyrians). In Volantis the people of Valyrian blood live behind a special walled in part of the city where commoners aren't allowed. The Targs are the only surviving dragonlords, who where the cream of the crop in Old Valyrian-nobles, so they are not like any other Valyrians.

Yes, its been found that the Valyrian look isn't very dominant, it yields to many other looks. Therefore we can conclude that its a rare look in total world population, and one that will constantly become rarer until extinct. Like blue and green eyes irl. 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

 

24 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Didn't the Blackfyre look consist of black hair?

 

 

The Great Bastards

Targaryen on both side, Daemon had all the hallmarks of his house; the silver-gold hair, the deep purple eyes, fine features of almost inhuman beauty. Daemon's friends and supporters often remarked on how much he resembled Aegon the Conquerer (or at least his likeness, since none of them had ever seen Aegon in the flesh), and indeed there was a certain similarlity, though Daemon wore his hair long, flowing down to his shoulders in a silvery-gold mane. He went clean-shaved, with neither beard nor mustache. Daemon looks every inch the warrior; broad shoulders, big arms, a flat stomach, but he was also a man of considerable charm. I'd give him a warm smile. He made friends easily, and women were drawn to him as well.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

On 7-4-2016 at 9:36 PM, Ser Knute said:

How do you figure?  Robert and Cersei had no children together.  The Baratheon lineage tome that Ned used for his research covers far more than the Lannister union, of which there are no offspring... and yet throughout the history covered in that book, ALL Baratheons are black of hair, etc.  Even when married to the Targaryens the traits hold true.  Now I'd agree that this is likely more toward plot-device than it is a true representation of genetic inheritance as per the real world... however, unless the Baratheons previously married into the Lannisters (I don't have my Worldbook here with me) your statement is incorrect as it pertains to Robert and Cersei.

Robert and Cersei had no children, that's correct. But Eddard's research considers all Baratheon/Lannister marriages from the past, which every single time resulted in a black haired child, no matter whether the mother had been a Baratheon, or the father. That Cersei's three children are golden haired is thus a hint that something is off.

Further, Eddard realises that Robert's bastards all have his look, no matter what the mothers looked like. So Robert's seed is strong. But that doesn't mean that every child ever descended directly from a Baratheon must have had the Baratheon look.

As we've seen before. Alyssa Velaryon (presumably Valyrian looking), married Robar Baratheon. Their daughter, Jocelyn, married Prince Aemon Targaryen. Jocelyn's daughter had the Valyrian looks. So the Baratheon traits were not passed on in their case.

[Sigella]

38 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

 

 

The Great Bastards

Targaryen on both side, Daemon had all the hallmarks of his house; the silver-gold hair, the deep purple eyes, fine features of almost inhuman beauty. Daemon's friends and supporters often remarked on how much he resembled Aegon the Conquerer (or at least his likeness, since none of them had ever seen Aegon in the flesh), and indeed there was a certain similarlity, though Daemon wore his hair long, flowing down to his shoulders in a silvery-gold mane. He went clean-shaved, with neither beard nor mustache. Daemon looks every inch the warrior; broad shoulders, big arms, a flat stomach, but he was also a man of considerable charm. I'd give him a warm smile. He made friends easily, and women were drawn to him as well.

Daemon 1 and his two eldest sons had the silver-gold hair, but Daemon 2 had black hair, as did Maelys the Monstrous.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

4 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Daemon 1 and his two eldest sons had the silver-gold hair, but Daemon 2 had black hair, as did Maelys the Monstrous.

Maelys's appearance, aside from the second head, is never described. The appearance of the Blackfyre twins, Aemon and Aegon, are, per my recollection, also never described.

Daemon II had dyed his hair black in order to be unrecognizable. Once it was washed out, his hair was of Valyrian colouring, silver-gold:

The prince had washed the black dye from his hair as well, so it flowed down to his collar in a cascade of silver and gold that glimmered like beaten metal in the torchlight. Egg would have hair like that if he ever let it grow, Dunk realized.

[Sigella]

3 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Maelys's appearance, aside from the second head, is never described. The appearance of the Blackfyre twins, Aemon and Aegon, are, per my recollection, also never described.

Daemon II had dyed his hair black in order to be unrecognizable. Once it was washed out, his hair was of Valyrian colouring, silver-gold:

The prince had washed the black dye from his hair as well, so it flowed down to his collar in a cascade of silver and gold that glimmered like beaten metal in the torchlight. Egg would have hair like that if he ever let it grow, Dunk realized.

Sorry, you're right. The twins are the two eldest and they both had Valerian hair. Daemon I had 9 kids though, some might not pass the trait but that is unknown.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

5 hours ago, Sigella said:

Didn't the Blackfyre look consist of black hair?

Daemon I had the trademarked Targaryen silver-gold, so did his son Daemon II (once he washed the dark dye off), and then we generally don't get the remaining Blackfyres' description (dunno what Maelys the Monstrous' hair looked like, I think, everyone seems fixed on his two heads).

You might have been thinking of Bittersteel.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

2 hours ago, Sigella said:

Sorry, you're right. The twins are the two eldest and they both had Valerian hair. Daemon I had 9 kids though, some might not pass the trait but that is unknown.

Like I said, I can't recall any statement in the text as to the hair colour of the twins. If you've found one, could you please quote it?

And sure, Daemon had at least nine children, and we know the colouring of so few Blackfyres. But, those that we do know it of, looked Valyrian. 

[Nyrhex]

22 hours ago, Sigella said:

Its about how some genes are more dominant than others. The Durrandonds black eyes must be exceptionally so, if they up the Baratheon blues. Doesn't have to be of divine origin.

No they don't. Its mostly seen in the old Freeholds (which were populated at part, and founded, by Valyrians). In Volantis the people of Valyrian blood live behind a special walled in part of the city where commoners aren't allowed. The Targs are the only surviving dragonlords, who where the cream of the crop in Old Valyrian-nobles, so they are not like any other Valyrians.

Yes, its been found that the Valyrian look isn't very dominant, it yields to many other looks. Therefore we can conclude that its a rare look in total world population, and one that will constantly become rarer until extinct. Like blue and green eyes irl. 

1. Backwards, Durrandon blue eyes trump the Baratheon black. Later Baratheons have the Durrandon blue eyes, and blacl hair was also a Durrandon trait regardless of Orys' black hair.

 I am not saying it is definatly divine blood as reasoning, but the Durrandon traits show an unnatural ability to persist and trump literally every possible combination of parents. A Durrandon or a Baratheon later (aside of Orys) will pass on those traits. No other family has the same genes repeatedly trump all others in every single family member. This is not even shades of those colors, but exact tones. Several Baratheons even look almost identical to other younger Baratheons.

2. Several characters comment on how you can find plenty of whores with the same look in Essos. It is not just nobility.

3. And like other traits in real life, if it is the dominant trait in a society, like say Scandinavian blone hair and blue eyes, it would not easily go away. Simply because most couples would come from the same ethnic group. Most of Ned's children had the Tully look, but the Stark look is common in the North, so it would not go away any time soon.

[TheDemonicStark]

Actually, it should be noted the Jon Snow is very similar to Rhaegar in personality. Both are rather quiet and a bit melancholy, due to Jon's status as a bastard. However, Jon made peace with being a bastard, when he isn't. Rhaegar dealt with something else altogether.

A nurture vs nature argument about Rhaegar's two sons should be fun.

[Sigella]

23 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Like I said, I can't recall any statement in the text as to the hair colour of the twins. If you've found one, could you please quote it?

And sure, Daemon had at least nine children, and we know the colouring of so few Blackfyres. But, those that we do know it of, looked Valyrian. 

the wiki, check out the family tree

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Blackfyre

[Sigella]

6 hours ago, Nyrhex said:

1. Backwards, Durrandon blue eyes trump the Baratheon black. Later Baratheons have the Durrandon blue eyes, and blacl hair was also a Durrandon trait regardless of Orys' black hair.

 I am not saying it is definatly divine blood as reasoning, but the Durrandon traits show an unnatural ability to persist and trump literally every possible combination of parents. A Durrandon or a Baratheon later (aside of Orys) will pass on those traits. No other family has the same genes repeatedly trump all others in every single family member. This is not even shades of those colors, but exact tones. Several Baratheons even look almost identical to other younger Baratheons.

2. Several characters comment on how you can find plenty of whores with the same look in Essos. It is not just nobility.

3. And like other traits in real life, if it is the dominant trait in a society, like say Scandinavian blone hair and blue eyes, it would not easily go away. Simply because most couples would come from the same ethnic group. Most of Ned's children had the Tully look, but the Stark look is common in the North, so it would not go away any time soon.

1 Yeah totally backwards. Seems to be my thing these days.

2 Not Essos. Lys, which is one of the old Freeholds. Essos is a continent whereas Lys is a city ( or an island, or a city on an island, can't recall )

3 As a swede I can inform you that blonde hair and blue eyes is not the dominant trait, but still much more common than in say, Spain. But since its not the most common coloring it leads to an automatic downslope.

Hopefully science will sort stuff like that out when we start genetic engineering. 

[Sigella]

6 hours ago, TheDemonicStark said:

Actually, it should be noted the Jon Snow is very similar to Rhaegar in personality. Both are rather quiet and a bit melancholy, due to Jon's status as a bastard. However, Jon made peace with being a bastard, when he isn't. Rhaegar dealt with something else altogether.

A nurture vs nature argument about Rhaegar's two sons should be fun.

Nice point!

I'm thinking that Jon's stand-offish behavior is due to his wicked stepmom picking on him, perhaps Rhaegar's was due to his batshitcrazy dad?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

3 hours ago, Sigella said:

the wiki, check out the family tree

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Blackfyre

I'm not really sure why you are linking the Blackfyre family tree? I was asking you what your is source for the hair colour of Aegon and Aemon? Since you claim it is known they were Valyrian looking..

[Damein Blackfyre true king]

An interesting feature of the series is the artistry of the characters.  And the world of Ice fire does a great job of pictures and also illustrations of such characters. One thing I've stated in other chats is that most 1st born children to a male targaryean tend to look like the dominant genes.  Famous example targaryean + martell comes out looking martell for most 1st born children.  Rhaella looks dornish but Aegon looks valyrian.  Usually the 2nd child born to that particular male if it's with the same mother looks recessive.  Another example baelor Breakspear vs maekar.  Finally look at Aegon 5 children Duncan looks like the Blackwood, but Jaherys and other siblings look like targs.  If you go through the history there is definitely a pattern that helps us predict what a stark targaryean 1st born to Lyanna would look like a full blown stark with eyes so grey they look black.  

[Sigella]

15 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

I'm not really sure why you are linking the Blackfyre family tree? I was asking you what your is source for the hair colour of Aegon and Aemon? Since you claim it is known they were Valyrian looking..

Because they are in the family tree with their own pages - on which their features is described.

[Ser Scott Malkinson]

On 25-9-2016 at 5:47 PM, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

(dunno what Maelys the Monstrous' hair looked like, I think, everyone seems fixed on his two heads).

Such a sob story: "Everyone looks at me and sees the heads of two people, but no one wonders if I have the feelings of two people as well..."

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

1 hour ago, Sigella said:

Because they are in the family tree with their own pages - on which their features is described.

Except that their features are not described. Don't mistake a fan-art interpretation for a factual statement. We have an artist who drew Aemon and Aegon with Valyrian features (and, for some reason, at a late-teen/adult age despite the fact that they died at the age of twelve), but that is the interpretation of the artist. Aemon's and Aegon's features (hair color, eye color, etc.) are not described in text.

Is it likely that they had Valyrian colouring? I think so, yes. But their hair and eye colors are not described in the text.