Balon is the worst Military Leader in recent history

[thelittledragonthatcould]

1 hour ago, The Wolves said:

Why do you keep insisting that winter would not have been a problem for Balon especially given what we know about the north's cruel winters?

Why do you keep on insisting that Winter would finish them off?

 

1 hour ago, The Wolves said:

 

Plus the north is not about to get just any of their 5 years of a harsh cruel winter. They are about to get a winter that hasn't happened in thousands of years so why do you persist that Balon/Ironborn would have been okay? 

How on earth is Balon supposed to predict that?

Plus a usual winter is 2-3 years, the harshest are they 5 year ones.

And the Ironborn would be in a similar position to the Northmen in the North, suffering through a winter. The peasants suffer the most, the Ironborn would be an invading army with access to some castles and their food supplies.  Winter is incrediably different for poor farmers and their families than it would be the nobility and garrison of Torrhens Square.

1 hour ago, The Wolves said:

Winter is not an element the Ironborn would have done well in.

Done well in? Maybe not, but they would have survived it and held onto the gains they had made before winter hit.

1 hour ago, The Wolves said:

The western coast of the north would have worked as against the Ironborn as anywhere else in the north.

Now you are just being ridiculous.

1 hour ago, The Wolves said:

And the Northmen are equipped to travel hundreds of miles in the winter that's exactly when they would have attacked.

lol In winter? With food being sparse? While carrying siege weapons needed? Hugely unlikely.

You are buying into the same BS Northern propaganda that Arya did at Kings Landing.

 

[The Wolves]

9 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Why do you keep on insisting that Winter would finish them off?

 

How on earth is Balon supposed to predict that?

Plus a usual winter is 2-3 years, the harshest are they 5 year ones.

And the Ironborn would be in a similar position to the Northmen in the North, suffering through a winter. The peasants suffer the most, the Ironborn would be an invading army with access to some castles and their food supplies.  Winter is incrediably different for poor farmers and their families than it would be the nobility and garrison of Torrhens Square.

Done well in? Maybe not, but they would have survived it and held onto the gains they had made before winter hit.

Now you are just being ridiculous.

lol In winter? With food being sparse? While carrying siege weapons needed? Hugely unlikely.

You are buying into the same BS Northern propaganda that Arya did at Kings Landing.

 

Why wouldn't winter finish them off? GRRM tells us over and over that the north is cruel in winter it's a very harsh and uninhabitable environment but you keep insisting that the Ironborn would have been okay in that type of environment. 

And yeah Balon should be able to predict that the North might have a very very harsh winter since summer lasted 10yrs. Everybody talked about how if there was a long summer than you get a hard winter so yeah Balon should have predicted the North's winter. 

2-3years of winter will still do a lot of damage. 

And no the Ironborn would not be in a similar position to the Northmen in the North. First off the Northmen know the North and they know northern winters which the Ironborn don't. Plus are these castles that they took well stocked to feed the Ironborn what if they than run out of food during winter than what? 

Tell me how winter on the west coast wouldn't have worked against them? There would still have been feet of snow they have to travel through to get to the supplies. There would have been winter storms hampering the ships it's just a very unpredictable environment that they're not equipped to handle. 

And please we seen just how well the Northmen do during winter weather. They crossed hundreds of miles in ADWD struggling very little. They know how to travel, fight, and live in that type of environment they've been doing it for thousands of years. 

What propaganda bullshit? 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

5 hours ago, The Wolves said:

Why wouldn't winter finish them off? GRRM tells us over and over that the north is cruel in winter it's a very harsh and uninhabitable environment but you keep insisting that the Ironborn would have been okay in that type of environment. 

Because they are not peasants, they are not sitting around in badly made camps with no sources of food. Their success in taking settlements and the Winter supplies means they are well stocked to last a winter.

They also have access to the coast were new supplies can be brought back and forth.

So while a Northern winter would no doubt be harsher in the North than it would be on the Iron Islands, they are not nearly as unprepared as you make out. They are not natives of the Reach or Stormlands who are used to decent weather and a decent lifestyle.

It is also worth noting that the population of Dragon Sea Point is as much Ironborn as it is Northern. They have a decent pool of Northern recruits which to draw upon in the North

 

5 hours ago, The Wolves said:

And yeah Balon should be able to predict that the North might have a very very harsh winter since summer lasted 10yrs.

You made a claim that it will be the worst winter ever. That is an idiotic thing to be able to predict. Ned, Robb and every other Northerner has no idea that the Long Night is returning.

I am only replying to your claim that "They are about to get a winter that hasn't happened in thousands of years" which is pure Bullshit if you think Balon or anyone else should have been able to predict that.

5 hours ago, The Wolves said:

 

Everybody talked about how if there was a long summer than you get a hard winter so yeah Balon should have predicted the North's winter. 

But that is not what you said and not what I disagreed with. You made a dumb hyperbolic statement which i disagreed with and are now trying to move the goal posts.

5 hours ago, The Wolves said:

2-3years of winter will still do a lot of damage. 

Sure. Too everyone including the surviving Northern Lords. People with food supplies will survive, it might not be pleasant but they should be OK.

5 hours ago, The Wolves said:

And no the Ironborn would not be in a similar position to the Northmen in the North.

lol no, they'd be in a similar position to the Northmen in strong castles with strong supplies. They would actually be in a better position than the majority of the smallfolk.

5 hours ago, The Wolves said:

 

First off the Northmen know the North and they know northern winters which the Ironborn don't. Plus are these castles that they took well stocked to feed the Ironborn what if they than run out of food during winter than what?

Well that is a scenario they would have to deal with should it occur. Having access to the Iron Fleet and the coast would be a major boon in this scenario.

5 hours ago, The Wolves said:

Tell me how winter on the west coast wouldn't have worked against them? There would still have been feet of snow they have to travel through to get to the supplies. There would have been winter storms hampering the ships it's just a very unpredictable environment that they're not equipped to handle. 

Just like it would affect the Northmen.

5 hours ago, The Wolves said:

And please we seen just how well the Northmen do during winter weather. They crossed hundreds of miles in ADWD struggling very little.

Are the Northmen not stuck with Stannis shivering their asses off near Winterfell? Are they not stuck inside Winterfell also worried about supplies?

The Northmen are better in pitched warfare in Winter in the North. During winter there is not going to be a lot of that given the majority of the Northern army would have been defeated with Robb.

5 hours ago, The Wolves said:

They know how to travel, fight, and live in that type of environment they've been doing it for thousands of years. 

You mean they have barely surviving in it for thousands of years. And in many cases in the winter the smallfolk have been dying in it for thousands of years.

 

[Ser Tristan Flowers]

When Asha talked to Rodrik the Reader she even thinks about Balon to be "a great man, but a bad lord" in the context of him pursuing a crown. This wouldn´t make any sense if their goals were aligned. Balon actually thought he could be an independet king of the Isles and the North, wich is just ridiculous. To be fair he couldn´t hope to hold the westerlands any longer than the north, due to the lack of natural defences and the approaching alliance with the reach, it would actually be suicide. If I could choose an enemy between teenage Robb Stark and Tywin fucking Lannister, that would be an easy choice to me.

Attacking the north is the only thing Balon could´ve done, but there´s no evidence that he planned on bargaining for land and swearing fealty from the beginning. That doesn´t make him the worst, his campaign in the north was all in all very successful while he lived, but it makes him unrealistic and overly proud. As usual he´s somewhere in between.

[Hoppy Hour]

On 8/4/2016 at 8:11 AM, LordPathera said:

Balon Greyjoy's greatest source of stupidity is his idealization of the Old Way of life for the Ironborn. His stubborn and prideful attempt at trying to raise himself up as the greatest champion of the Old Ways and to assert its dominance with poorly timed and thought-out campaigns that had initial success, but were doomed to fail.

The best that can be said about Balon is that he died (or Euron killed him) before he could make things worst for his people and give the Old Ways an even worst name. It's possible that Euron's plan to invade the Reach will turn-out to be an even dumber move than either of his Brother's campaigns. Maybe someone else will usurp Balon as the dumbest military commander in recent history. But for now, I say that Balon can keep his crown as the King of Failure.

[The Wolves]

6 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Because they are not peasants, they are not sitting around in badly made camps with no sources of food. Their success in taking settlements and the Winter supplies means they are well stocked to last a winter.

They also have access to the coast were new supplies can be brought back and forth.

So while a Northern winter would no doubt be harsher in the North than it would be on the Iron Islands, they are not nearly as unprepared as you make out. They are not natives of the Reach or Stormlands who are used to decent weather and a decent lifestyle.

It is also worth noting that the population of Dragon Sea Point is as much Ironborn as it is Northern. They have a decent pool of Northern recruits which to draw upon in the North

 

You made a claim that it will be the worst winter ever. That is an idiotic thing to be able to predict. Ned, Robb and every other Northerner has no idea that the Long Night is returning.

I am only replying to your claim that "They are about to get a winter that hasn't happened in thousands of years" which is pure Bullshit if you think Balon or anyone else should have been able to predict that.

But that is not what you said and not what I disagreed with. You made a dumb hyperbolic statement which i disagreed with and are now trying to move the goal posts.

Sure. Too everyone including the surviving Northern Lords. People with food supplies will survive, it might not be pleasant but they should be OK.

lol no, they'd be in a similar position to the Northmen in strong castles with strong supplies. They would actually be in a better position than the majority of the smallfolk.

Well that is a scenario they would have to deal with should it occur. Having access to the Iron Fleet and the coast would be a major boon in this scenario.

Just like it would affect the Northmen.

Are the Northmen not stuck with Stannis shivering their asses off near Winterfell? Are they not stuck inside Winterfell also worried about supplies?

The Northmen are better in pitched warfare in Winter in the North. During winter there is not going to be a lot of that given the majority of the Northern army would have been defeated with Robb.

You mean they have barely surviving in it for thousands of years. And in many cases in the winter the smallfolk have been dying in it for thousands of years.

 

How is it idiotic not to predict that the north will have one of its worst winters ever? The north is a environment that has unpredictable weather yes Balon trying to take over land should know about its environment. And he should be prepared for all scenarios. 

And the Northmen would be hampered by winter but unlike the Ironborn they know how to navigate through it. And getting food from the coast would still be very hard for the Iron born they would have to cross miles and miles of feet deep snow that they have no idea how to navigate. Asha was going mad with the cold saying the Iron Islands never had cold like the north and she's  praying that she never knows winter in ADWD. She also calls the Northmen snow equipment queer having never seen it. 

Yeah the Northmen are out side of Winterfell shivering their asses off. But they crossed hundreds of miles in that winter weather in feet deep snows and storms not losing any Northmen along the way to the weather. Stannis, his army and Asha would be dead if it wasn't for the Northmen. 

I don't know how you define barely but this culture have been in the harsh north for 10,000 plus years having survived the Long Night and thousands of years of harsh winters. They're still called the oldest kingdom and still standing and will be after the second Long Night I don't get barely surviving from the Northmen. 

Of course the small folk have been dying in it for thousands of years they've also been protected from the winters by the Starks, White Harbor, Barrowtown and from other Lords. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

1 hour ago, The Wolves said:

How is it idiotic not to predict that the north will have one of its worst winters ever? The north is a environment that has unpredictable weather yes Balon trying to take over land should know about its environment. And he should be prepared for all scenarios. 

Of course it is idiotic. You don't see Ned or Robb making a prediction that the North is heading for one of its 'worst winters ever'. Blaming Balon for not making the same prediction is idiotic.

And what does it really change? Balon was taking holdfasts and their food stores before Winter hit, strengthening his own position and further weakening the  Norths.

1 hour ago, The Wolves said:

And the Northmen would be hampered by winter but unlike the Ironborn they know how to navigate through it.

Sure. I guess the Ironborn would just stay nice and snug in the holdfasts they took in the west of the North.

 

1 hour ago, The Wolves said:

 

And getting food from the coast would still be very hard for the Iron born they would have to cross miles and miles of feet deep snow that they have no idea how to navigate.

No idea? Come on, that is just needless hyperbole. Certainly would be more difficult for the Ironborn but not impossible.

1 hour ago, The Wolves said:

Asha was going mad with the cold saying the Iron Islands never had cold like the north and she's  praying that she never knows winter in ADWD.

And yet she was planning on staying. Plus she was marching in the wilderness with a poorly supplied army.

1 hour ago, The Wolves said:

She also calls the Northmen snow equipment queer having never seen it. 

Not sure your point. Are the Ironborn and Northmen not the same race? The Ironborn would either learn to adapt in the winter or leave.

1 hour ago, The Wolves said:

Yeah the Northmen are out side of Winterfell shivering their asses off. But they crossed hundreds of miles in that winter weather in feet deep snows and storms not losing any Northmen along the way to the weather.

Was it winter when they set off? And what good has it done them?

1 hour ago, The Wolves said:

Stannis, his army and Asha would be dead if it wasn't for the Northmen. 

Possibly.

Stannis planned poorly.

1 hour ago, The Wolves said:

I don't know how you define barely but this culture have been in the harsh north for 10,000 plus years having survived the Long Night and thousands of years of harsh winters. They're still called the oldest kingdom and still standing and will be after the second Long Night I don't get barely surviving from the Northmen. 

Cool beans.

They suffer during winter as much as anyone. They are not some superhuman race that is resistant to the weather.

 

[Johannes Rimpiläinen]

Most of the thread seems to be misdirected. Balon was a horrible military leader, he failed at first stage of strategy. His stategic goals were aimed at hindering his political goals, he was basically buggering himself. His political goal was to gain independence. In order to do that, he needs to defend against the remaining six kingdoms. His political goal is not to hold independence for 5 years until one house again unifies the kingdom and crushes him.  His political goal is to achieve lasting independence. He got lucky, one other kingdom declared independence. He then proceeds to fuck his long term common interests with the North (they both must in the long term repel the southerners once they are again unified) by raiding them for some loot thus strengthening the Iron throne when his only chance for independence is a weak Iron throne. He was already outnumbered, gets offered an alliance and instead of accepting it declares a new war. The better he does in that new war, the weaker his long term position becomes. That is pure madness, he is basically waging war against himself by attacking the enemy of his enemy. Attacking the North would have been a good move if he had chosen to kneel for the Iron Throne, then it would have been possible for him to get granted those lands. 

[Trigger Warning]

A typical Northern army can't campaign in Winter much more than any other typical feudal army could. Just because you know a few tricks to help deal with snow and survival doesn't mean you can campaign in winter whilst everyone else dies, it's ridiculous and the extent of knowledge that the average Northern man at arms or levy would have of combat in the snow is debatable, the mountain clans live in mountains, they fight in snowwy conditions perpetually. They're still humans, they still need supplies and pack animals and equipment. The majority of the soldiers would probably think fuck this and return home a few nights into the march. A few armies are dicking about in the North now and already suffering for it, they're not going to start new campaigns focused on sieges when Winter has fully set in.

The winter would bring a stalemate, no northern lord is going to go marching off to die of attrition sitting outside a castle in the middle of winter to kick out some Ironborn, the campaigning season would be over for everyone.

[The Wolves]

2 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:

A typical Northern army can't campaign in Winter much more than any other typical feudal army could. Just because you know a few tricks to help deal with snow and survival doesn't mean you can campaign in winter whilst everyone else dies, it's ridiculous and the extent of knowledge that the average Northern man at arms or levy would have of combat in the snow is debatable, the mountain clans live in mountains, they fight in snowwy conditions perpetually. They're still humans, they still need supplies and pack animals and equipment. The majority of the soldiers would probably think fuck this and return home a few nights into the march. A few armies are dicking about in the North now and already suffering for it, they're not going to start new campaigns focused on sieges when Winter has fully set in.

The winter would bring a stalemate, no northern lord is going to go marching off to die of attrition sitting outside a castle in the middle of winter to kick out some Ironborn, the campaigning season would be over for everyone.

So you mean to tell me that you don't think the Northern houses have fought wars in winter in all their 8000 plus years in the north and wouldn't have that knowledge on how to fight wars in winter?  

After all the rebellions that the Starks have fought throughout their campaign for the north you're going to tell me that these northernmen didn't fight wars in multiple winters? 

Correct if I'm wrong but didn't Davos' jailer in ADWD in the Wolf's Den tell house Brandon "Ice Eyes" Stark came down and fought some slavers during one of the worst winters the North have ever seen? 

[hodorisfaclessman]

Asha herself for all her whinging about it being a lost cause was planning to take part of the north by negotiation 

The idea they couldt carve up some of the north is ridiculous ..all of it? Who knows 

But taking and holding the likes of bear island etc are high