Balon is the worst Military Leader in recent history

[Hugorfonics]

4 minutes ago, Sullen said:

Then Balon bet on the wrong horse.

Houses, 3. (Plus Stannis, so 4. And while Renly may pardon, he also may not. Lannister too, think of Cerseis wish for the iron islands or Joffs wish for everyone)

 

6 minutes ago, Sullen said:

But that's the thing, Robb was not likely to win, he was the most inexperienced out of all the candidates, the one with the least men at his disposition, and the most vulnerable one. 

Robb was inexperienced, his officers were not. He had more men then Stannis (and Balon) Very vulnerable, no doubt.

 

8 minutes ago, Sullen said:

Balon told Asha that bending the knee was essential in the right moment, 

Which I agree with. Why die when you can live? But nobody threatend Balon, he was rapidly winning his war

10 minutes ago, Sullen said:

and opened talks of alliances/peace, I believe he truly intended on setting the Crown aside

Then why offer an alliance and not fealty as a subject?

 

11 minutes ago, Sullen said:

, Mace not giving two shits about the North or the Iron Islands doesn't really prove anything, I highly doubt Tywin would have just let him go like that, he's not as foolishly generous as Mace is.

No ones as foolish as Mace

12 minutes ago, Sullen said:

Once Stannis was desperate and stuck doing nothing on Dragonstone.

If Stannis wins the Blackwater, and Balon reaches out to him as he did to Tywin, I doubt Balon still gets his leech. Stannis hates traitors, but he needs all the help he can get... hell, most of his army consists of people he perceives as traitors.

In any case, the leech does nothing, and I hardly see Stannis declining any offer of fealty, as opportunistic as the might be.

Why would Stannis need help if he's in possession of KL? He pardoned Renlys men because he needed them, and none of them commited such gross treason

[Sullen]

10 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Houses, 3. (Plus Stannis, so 4. And while Renly may pardon, he also may not. Lannister too, think of Cerseis wish for the iron islands or Joffs wish for everyone)

A risky business for sure, but one that didn't turn against him, as he actually bet on the right horse.

Joffrey doesn't seem to dislike Balon either, in fact, I think he relishes in the fact that he fucked Robb over. Remember, he wanted to etch out the Stark wolf from the cup Mace offered him at his wedding and replace it with a Kraken, I wouldn't say that's the reaction of someone who holds a grudge against Balon.

14 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Robb was inexperienced, his officers were not. He had more men then Stannis (and Balon) Very vulnerable, no doubt.

Robb's officers couldn't stop him from making foolish mistake after foolish mistake... Balon saw quite just here.

15 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Which I agree with. Why die when you can live? But nobody threatend Balon, he was rapidly winning his war

Against the Northmen.

He has no chance to win a war against the Iron Throne, as much as he can bloody them, he'll always eventually lose due to the fact that he has less troops.

17 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Then why offer an alliance and not fealty as a subject?

He opens negotiations by asking for too much, so that when he sets his Crown aside it seems a concession and he gets to keep his lands. It's purely haggling.

Compare it to the negotiations between Robb and the Lannisters, both ask for terms they know won't be accepted so that they can then lower the stakes and make it seem like it's out of good faith.

19 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

No ones as foolish as Mace

While he has his sensible moments (backing Renly, then backing Joffrey), he does make a lot of foolish judgements, yes.

20 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Why would Stannis need help if he's in possession of KL? He pardoned Renlys men because he needed them, and none of them commited such gross treason

He just lost his navy, and still has to deal with the Northmen, what remains of Tywin's army, and the Tyrells who refuse to see him as a King. Stannis still needs help.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Always insulting

I was not trying to be insulting.

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Where is it alluded that Balons men have questionable loyalty.

When did I, or anyone else, say that they did?

Once again you have tried to create a straw man argument.

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Dude, Greyjoys aren't Starks. Karstark would have peace on those terms, Iornborn love raiding. Plus, we do not sow. Why pay the gold price when you can pay the iron.

 

Not sure what you mean here. Can you clarify what your point?

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I get that, people like spices. But the crown does not.

Again, I have no idea what you are trying to say here. Can you be so kind to elaborate what you mean?

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Started negotiations of peace with Tywin? (It was actually Tyrion) that's not how I'd say it. Balon claimed half of Westeros, Lannister didnt respond.

No, it was actually Tywin. He sent a raven to the Small Council in ASOS when Tywin was in the capital.

Once again you are crediting Tyrion with deeds he had no part in. Clearly a running theme (gag?) in your posts. Very witty.

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Asha wanted less land actually

Actually? What on earth are you babbling about now?

She wanted more land. Having land in the North is more. How do you not understand this?

 

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And Viserys and the Golden Company 

I am sorry but what does this even mean? Can you elaborate what you actually mean in your replies.

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If he doesn't need to elevate himself because his men are gaga for him, what the fuck are we arguing about?

I'm not arguing. You replied to me and I responded.

You brought up elevation. Can you clarify what you mean here?

 

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He negotiated because that's what people do, when did he claim to have intentions of being crownless? 

I am not sure what you are trying to say here.

"That's what people do". What people? Give examples in the books of these people doing this.

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Being a fugazi king is what agitated Balon to begin with 

Really? Can you back this up with evidence from the books?

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Not even, give him a crown. That's the way you talk down to a vassal.

Again you seem to have lost me. Can you explain what this has to do with what I actually said.

 Did you even read the post you are replying to?

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Well nothing would change Balons mind so good thing Robb did send hostages.

You asked what more Robb could have done. I gave you examples. You even agreed that Robb did not offer enough.

It seems like you are arguing for the sake of it. Are you really so bitter about me not agreeing with your fantasies about Tyrion winning the Battle of the Blackwater that you have to follow me around and try to pick arguments?

I don't think Tyrion won at the Blackwater. Get over it.

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Most of the work, is rape and plunder. Lannister armies were not in the west. There was a risk, less then the Northerners and Riverfolk, and the prize was castelry rock

Wow. A coherent sentence (of sorts), finally something I can actually discuss.

There was a Lannister army in the West at the time of the discussion. Stafford's army. It was not yet defeated. Secondly Tywin's army was far closer to his capital than Robb was to his. And thirdly, Balon was aware that Casterly Rock had never been taken.

But I appreciate this response, please keep it up.

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No way, Theon was a hostage when Balon called his banners.

Who said he was?

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But shouldn't the old way do that? And then the promise too stop?

Should it? Care to elaborate?

 

[Hugorfonics]

5 minutes ago, Sullen said:

A risky business for sure, but one that didn't turn against him, as he actually bet on the right horse.

Joffrey doesn't seem to dislike Balon either, in fact, I think he relishes in the fact that he fucked Robb over. Remember, he wanted to etch out the Stark wolf from the cup Mace offered him at his wedding and replace it with a Kraken, I wouldn't say that's the reaction of someone who holds a grudge against Balon.

Word. I don't despise Balon. I think he was very successful.

Lol, seems like the reaction of someone who knows how to punk his exgirlfriend. Joffrey was aghast that Stannis' men weren't being put to the sword, I'm sure Joffrey has hurt feelings over Balon, he was the worst. 

8 minutes ago, Sullen said:

Robb's officers couldn't stop him from making foolish mistake after foolish mistake... Balon saw quite just here.

Hmmm, like Riverrun or Oxcross. Robb fucked up, but he certainly did better then others expected.

 

11 minutes ago, Sullen said:

Against the Northmen.

He has no chance to win a war against the Iron Throne, as much as he can bloody them, he'll always eventually lose due to the fact that he has less troops.

But he's got a much bigger navy, and maybe he still clings to the realistic hope of Martell, Targaryen, Golden Company interaction. The Iron Throne is not stable, plus the wars been dragging on, and Winter is Coming ©

13 minutes ago, Sullen said:

He opens negotiations by asking for too much, so that when he sets his Crown aside it seems a concession and he gets to keep his lands. It's purely haggling.

Compare it to the negotiations between Robb and the Lannisters, both ask for terms they know won't be accepted so that they can then lower the stakes and make it seem like it's out of good faith.

So I may be mistaken here, Balon sends a letter to Tyrion which he ignores, or gives to Cersei whom ignores. Then another letter is written saying the same thing, except to Tywin, which is ignored. Not much of a haggle.

If submition and negotiations was the final prize, then why not send an envoy?

Robb and Tyrion were 100% against peace. Both wanted their hostages and decided they had to say something. It wasn't a real negotiation.

16 minutes ago, Sullen said:

He just lost his navy, and still has to deal with the Northmen, what remains of Tywin's army, and the Tyrells who refuse to see him as a King. Stannis still needs help.

Why the Northmen and not Greyjoy? Robb refuses to bend the knee to Joffrey, if Stannis wins he may

5 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

I was not trying to be insulting.

When did I, or anyone else, say that they did?

 

Ahh.

Never mind. 

11 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

 

Not sure what you mean here. Can you clarify what your point?

Again, I have no idea what you are trying to say here. Can you be so kind to elaborate what you mean?

 

You said Iron born need something to spice up the war, I think raiding, taking castles and thralls is a good enough reason. Balon did not crown himself to appease his Lords like Robb.

 

14 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Once again you are crediting Tyrion with deeds he had no part in. Clearly a running theme (gag?) in your posts. Very witty.

Actually? What on earth are you babbling about now?

She wanted more land. Having land in the North is more. How do you not understand this?

 

In acok tyrion reads Balons letter

Asha abandoned Winterfell, that's less.

18 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

 

I am sorry but what does this even mean? Can you elaborate what you actually mean in your replies.

I'm not arguing. You replied to me and I responded.

You brought up elevation. Can you clarify what you mean here?

 

Viserys and the Golden Company have long hated Westeros, no one should be surprised if they turn up again.

And your response ended your, theory.

For starters he had no need to elevate his position, the Ironborn were gaga for him. 

I meant that everyone was calling themselves king so Balon followed suit.

23 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

I am not sure what you are trying to say here.

"That's what people do". What people? Give examples in the books of these people doing this.

Yeah, people put on a facade of suing for peace. Robb, Tyrion, Dany, Yunaki. 

26 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

 

Really? Can you back this up with evidence from the books?

Again you seem to have lost me. Can you explain what this has to do with I actually said.

Is it past your bedtime? Are you high? This whole reply from you makes little actual sense? Did you even read the post you are replying to?

I don't wanna. Balon got mad at Theon and theon said bad wording but balon said what's said is meant.

I was agreeing with you. I'm pretty high.

28 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

You asked what more Robb could have done. I gave you examples. You even agreed that Robb did not offer enough.

It seems like you are arguing for the sake of it. Are you really so bitter about me not agreeing with your fantasies about Tyrion winning the Battle of the Blackwater that you have to follow me around and try to pick arguments?

I don't think Tyrion won at the Blackwater. Get over it.

 

Who's arguing for Robb? Or shitting on Balon? I'm discussing his plans for a permanent crown.

Lmaoo holy fuck. 

1. Stannis was on the other side of the bay, he made no progress but lost much

2. I responded to Sullen, you started this conversation.

3. Believe what you want, I'm over it.

32 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

 

Wow. A coherent sentence (of sorts), finally something I can actually discuss.

There was a Lannister army in the West at the time of the discussion. Stafford's army. It was not yet defeated. Secondly Tywin's army was far closer to his capital than Robb was to his. And thirdly, Balon was aware that Casterly Rock had never been taken.

But I appreciate this response, please keep it up.

Who said he was?

Should it? Care to elaborate?

 

And Tywin has no navy. Balon made the right call, but if he wanted to im sure he could wreck havock in the west

What?

I did.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

5 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

And Tywin has no navy.

Yes he has.

 

Did Tywin ever rebuild the Lannister fleet, after Euron burned it eight years ago?And if he rebuilt it, did he ever appoint a permanent commander of this fleet?Yes, Lord Tywin certainly replaced the ships that were lost.

 

[Sullen]

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Word. I don't despise Balon. I think he was very successful.

Lol, seems like the reaction of someone who knows how to punk his exgirlfriend. Joffrey was aghast that Stannis' men weren't being put to the sword, I'm sure Joffrey has hurt feelings over Balon, he was the worst. 

I think Joffrey is petty enough to forgive Balon on the grounds that he made a complete fool of Robb alone, and never directly acted against the Crown, unlike Stannis and Robb. Joffrey was an horrible little shit, but he still enjoyed some things, and Balon brought him plenty of joy by attacking Robb when things looked dire for the Lannister camp.

5 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Hmmm, like Riverrun or Oxcross. Robb fucked up, but he certainly did better then others expected.

He excelled at some places, and completely dropped the ball at others, and was eventually defeated by a much more cunning Tywin, as Balon predicted.

6 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

But he's got a much bigger navy, and maybe he still clings to the realistic hope of Martell, Targaryen, Golden Company interaction. The Iron Throne is not stable, plus the wars been dragging on, and Winter is Coming ©

As far as we know, Balon is not aware of the Targaryen infamy brewing in Essos, and the Martells had the opportunity to rebel ten years ago and didn't, I doubt Balon is so adept at foreseeing future events that he anticipated the Golden Company coming back with Aegon as well as the Martells (potentially) backing them.

The Crown is not stable at the moment, but as soon as it is, he's toast. Funny that you mention winter as well, considering that the Ironborn would kind of need the help of the mainland to stay fed during winter, considering they severely lack food back home and that the lands they conquered, while better than what they had on the Islands, still aren't exactly the most arable.

Simply, Balon is at the mercy of the Crown, and though he can inflict some damage on them, they can ultimately fuck him up after a short time of convalescence.

14 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

So I may be mistaken here, Balon sends a letter to Tyrion which he ignores, or gives to Cersei whom ignores. Then another letter is written saying the same thing, except to Tywin, which is ignored. Not much of a haggle.

Tyrion and Cersei are fools in that aspect, yet both still saw the possibility of re-accepting Balon into the King's peace, considering Tyrion uses Theon as a potential suitor for Myrcella in his ploy to out Cersei's spy, and Cersei takes Tywin's proposal to marry her to Balon should Alanys die seriously.

As for Tywin, he doesn't reply because he already has the Red Wedding planned. Mace and Rowan were more than willing to consider Balon's offer, with them being maybe even a bit too enthusiastic for the initial offer as we mentioned before.

21 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

If submition and negotiations was the final prize, then why not send an envoy?

Ravens are more reliable, the Iron Islands are rather far, so an envoy travelling from Pyke to King's Landing at every message would be rather inefficient.

23 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Why the Northmen and not Greyjoy? Robb refuses to bend the knee to Joffrey, if Stannis wins he may

Robb may very well declare for Stannis before Balon in this scenario, and in which case I suppose Balon would have to look elsewhere, probably to the Tyrells.

Also, answering to a few things in your conversation with thelittedragonthatcould.

25 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Asha abandoned Winterfell, that's less.

Balon's plan depended on keeping the coasts, that's where the Ironborn thrive after all. Winterfell is useless and should have been torched down, as Asha said. I'm pretty sure her way of thinking is representative of her father's here.

27 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

And Tywin has no navy. Balon made the right call, but if he wanted to im sure he could wreck havock in the west

The Lannisters have a navy at Lannisport, and Redwyne has stayed neutral until now with a possibility of them joining up with Tywin. Not angering Tywin here was smart. Sure, he could have sacked Lannisport like he did ten years ago, but he'd only be repeating past mistakes.

30 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yeah, people put on a facade of suing for peace. Robb, Tyrion, Dany, Yunaki. 

It's not exactly a facade, they know their offer will most likely be rejected, and they'll wait for a counter offer... if that counter offer is not admissible, they'll send another one, until a compromise is made.

As I mentioned above, it's haggling.

[watcher of the night]

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Sure. if you want to put it like that. Though can I ask when did Balon brag about how strong he was? When did he mention that he could beat the 'strongest boys in school'?

To Theon about the old ways, also crowning himslef is pretty much bragging about being a top dog.

 

On 2016. 04. 16. at 11:34 AM, thelittledragonthatcould said:

His tactic of picking on the weakest enemy is pretty much what the Vikings did. It is actually a sound military practice. Robb did not wait till the army at Oxcross was trained and armed, nor did he give them warning when he would attack them. He attacked them before they were properly trained and while they slept. There is nothing wrong with attacking your enemies when they are at their weakest.

Vikings did not have to worry about independence. Once again just like Balon you are ignoring the context.

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No, I have not forgotten about it. I just don't see it as much of an issue as you did. The army with Mace committed treason and starved Kings Landing. The army with with Stannis attacked Kings Landing. The Riverlands Northern armies engaged in war with with the Crown.

Tywin forgave (mostly) all of those, Balon's treason by comparison is a trifle in comparison. Balon did not attack the Crown or any of their loyalists.

None of those pardoned by Tywin crowned himslef a king.

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Why would he not? He has not attacked the Crown or their allies. There is little to forgive.

He just stole whole kingdomfrom the IT.

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None of the Lords can be 'trusted'. They all have their own self interests. Tywin is not Ned.

That is why he should have been worried.

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And he lost a war and was still loved. If he rejoins the Crown but with greater lands it will be a victory and few casualties. Maybe a small victory, but a victory nonetheless.

Ironmen do not like weak leaders. Losing to Robert is OK, but bending his knee again juts because Tywin looks at him funny?

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lol that is not how the books show it. At no point in the entire of ASOS did Tywin want to wage war on Balon. His crowning was seen as a trivial matter.

Not by Cersei. Also he was at the bottom of Tywin's list.

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At his death the Ironborn were still in a very strong position. 

Yeah but only because he was a ... chicken!

[watcher of the night]

On 2016. 04. 17. at 1:14 PM, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Please reread the thread, those arguments *such as they are* have already been answered/refuted many a time.

You pretty much ignore the context of the fight in all those posts, I won't call it "refuted": ignored by you describes the situation better.

[watcher of the night]

On 2016. 04. 16. at 0:12 AM, Sullen said:

Mate, independence was never Balon's goal, he doesn't have any aligned interests with Robb. Balon doesn't mind bending the knee, in case you missed the talk he had with Asha. He'll set his crown aside for the lands he captured up North, returning in the King's peace, albeit now controlling three times the landmass he started with, and lumber as well.

You are living in denial with littledragon. Why did he rebelled at the first time? Why did he crowned himself the second time? Why did he rejected Robb's offer? Independece, Independece, Independece.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

8 minutes ago, watcher of the night said:

You are living in denial with littledragon. Why did he rebelled at the first time? Why did he crowned himself the second time? Why did he rejected Robb's offer? Independece, Independece, Independece.

He is an opportunist. The whole Ironborn culture is born from opportunism.

Independence means very little if it is against a united Westeros or even a Westeros split into two. It is not like they want Independence because they are being oppressed either financially, religiously or culturally. They want to be able to practice the 'old way' and the biggest thing stopping that is how powerful a united Westeros is.

17 minutes ago, watcher of the night said:

To Theon about the old ways, also crowning himslef is pretty much bragging about being a top dog.

So no actual evidence of him bragging? If you are going to claim something it is a good idea to be able to back it up with evidence from the book.

Is Robb also bragging about being 'top dog'?

 

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None of those pardoned by Tywin crowned himslef a king.

So?

Balon was king for two books. Tywin did nothing about it.

Tywin actually forgave Lords who fought against him. The idea that he would not forgive someone for wearing a Crown is kind of silly and not backed up by the text.

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He just stole whole kingdomfrom the IT.

You seem to have more of an issue with it than Tywin does.

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That is why he should have been worried.

He was in a strong positon and was willing to compromise.

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Ironmen do not like weak leaders. Losing to Robert is OK, but bending his knee again juts because Tywin looks at him funny?

 If Balon came out of the situation with slightly more land then how is he weak? He's won.

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Not by Cersei. Also he was at the bottom of Tywin's list.

Exactly. Bigger threats were forgiven. Balon was at the bottom of the list, if he made it at all, he was always going to be forgiven since he had caused the Crown no trouble at all and even helped them.

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Yeah but only because he was a ... chicken!

Sure. Whatever helps you process the situation. The Ironborn and Vikings were cowardly by nature. They targeted the weak. It is kind of idiotic to target the strong. But if it helps you to call him a chicken then do so.

[Hugorfonics]

On 4/18/2016 at 1:34 PM, Sullen said:

I think Joffrey is petty enough to forgive Balon on the grounds that he made a complete fool of Robb alone, and never directly acted against the Crown, unlike Stannis and Robb. Joffrey was an horrible little shit, but he still enjoyed some things, and Balon brought him plenty of joy by attacking Robb when things looked dire for the Lannister camp.

He hated Renly. I understand where your coming from though, but once popular opinion will fall onto Greyjoy, Joff will be as bigoted as ever.

On 4/18/2016 at 1:34 PM, Sullen said:

He excelled at some places, and completely dropped the ball at others, and was eventually defeated by a much more cunning Tywin, as Balon predicted.

Some blame Tywin, others Roose or Walder. I'm a Ramsay kinda guy.

On 4/18/2016 at 1:34 PM, Sullen said:

As far as we know, Balon is not aware of the Targaryen infamy brewing in Essos, and the Martells had the opportunity to rebel ten years ago and didn't, I doubt Balon is so adept at foreseeing future events that he anticipated the Golden Company coming back with Aegon as well as the Martells (potentially) backing them.

Balon must be aware that Viserys and Dany left Westeros. And although Doran is a wuss, he'd never back up the crown. When was the GC here last? 25 years ago? And then probably 25 years before that too. Its like what Arya hears in the dungeon, this games never meant for two.

On 4/18/2016 at 1:34 PM, Sullen said:

The Crown is not stable at the moment, but as soon as it is, he's toast. Funny that you mention winter as well, considering that the Ironborn would kind of need the help of the mainland to stay fed during winter, considering they severely lack food back home and that the lands they conquered, while better than what they had on the Islands, still aren't exactly the most arable.

Simply, Balon is at the mercy of the Crown, and though he can inflict some damage on them, they can ultimately fuck him up after a short time of convalescence.

How much food is there in the mainland? The north, crownlands, west and riverlands are fucked.

I don't see Balon at anyone's mercy. Stannis' ships defeated balon the first time, but Tyrion destroyed those. And if worst comes to worst, then bend the knee; not before the crown looks at you

On 4/18/2016 at 1:34 PM, Sullen said:

Tyrion and Cersei are fools in that aspect, yet both still saw the possibility of re-accepting Balon into the King's peace, considering Tyrion uses Theon as a potential suitor for Myrcella in his ploy to out Cersei's spy, and Cersei takes Tywin's proposal to marry her to Balon should Alanys die seriously.

As for Tywin, he doesn't reply because he already has the Red Wedding planned. Mace and Rowan were more than willing to consider Balon's offer, with them being maybe even a bit too enthusiastic for the initial offer as we mentioned before.

Tyrion and Cersei are fools for not giving away more then half the nation?

On 4/18/2016 at 1:34 PM, Sullen said:

Ravens are more reliable, the Iron Islands are rather far, so an envoy travelling from Pyke to King's Landing at every message would be rather inefficient.

So how do you propose Balon follows your theory?

If an envoy is insufficient, and a raven gets ignored thrice, how do you bend while keeping your prize?

On 4/18/2016 at 1:34 PM, Sullen said:

Balon's plan depended on keeping the coasts, that's where the Ironborn thrive after all. Winterfell is useless and should have been torched down, as Asha said. I'm pretty sure her way of thinking is representative of her father's here.

Its not just Winterfell. At the kingsmoot Asha wanted to pull back from many of their prizes, she disagreed with the way Balon and Victarion handald the war.

On 4/18/2016 at 1:34 PM, Sullen said:

The Lannisters have a navy at Lannisport, and Redwyne has stayed neutral until now with a possibility of them joining up with Tywin. Not angering Tywin here was smart. Sure, he could have sacked Lannisport like he did ten years ago, but he'd only be repeating past mistakes.

If the navy at Lannisport is sufficient to destroy the iron fleet, why were they not present at Blackwater or to fend off Eurons raids?

On 4/18/2016 at 1:34 PM, Sullen said:

It's not exactly a facade, they know their offer will most likely be rejected, and they'll wait for a counter offer... if that counter offer is not admissible, they'll send another one, until a compromise is made.

As I mentioned above, it's haggling.

But no counter offer was made. It was ignored. 

Haggling only works when both sides communicate.

[Sullen]

9 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

He hated Renly. I understand where your coming from though, but once popular opinion will fall onto Greyjoy, Joff will be as bigoted as ever.

Popular opinion won't have time to fall, Balon will bend as soon as the time to do so comes.

10 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Some blame Tywin, others Roose or Walder. I'm a Ramsay kinda guy.

And who gave Tywin, Roose, or Walder the opportunities or motivations to hamper Robb's process? Robb himself.

11 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Balon must be aware that Viserys and Dany left Westeros. And although Doran is a wuss, he'd never back up the crown. When was the GC here last? 25 years ago? And then probably 25 years before that too. Its like what Arya hears in the dungeon, this games never meant for two.

Except it was 10 years ago, Balon has no reason to believe it'll be any different this time around.

13 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

How much food is there in the mainland? The north, crownlands, west and riverlands are fucked.

The Crownlands aren't too fucked, and in any case, all of them have more food than the Iron Isles.

14 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I don't see Balon at anyone's mercy. Stannis' ships defeated balon the first time, but Tyrion destroyed those. And if worst comes to worst, then bend the knee; not before the crown looks at you

Stannis's and Redwyne's... mostly Redwyne's in truth, and the Redwyne fleet is still standing. Not only that, but Balon began his first Rebellion by burning the Lannister fleet to limit reprisals, and that fleet has been rebuilt since then.

16 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Tyrion and Cersei are fools for not giving away more then half the nation?

Tyrion and Cersei are fools for not even bothering to open negotiations while not even having a fair plan to deal with Robb, unlike Tywin.

Although Tyrion does entertain the notion of an alliance with Balon in his whole betrothal shenanigans.

18 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

If an envoy is insufficient, and a raven gets ignored thrice, how do you bend while keeping your prize?

Keep sending them, they can't ignore you forever.

19 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Its not just Winterfell. At the kingsmoot Asha wanted to pull back from many of their prizes, she disagreed with the way Balon and Victarion handald the war.

Asha wanted peace as soon as possible, but both her and Balon value lands above all.

Asha is also more of a romantic, so while Balon intended to bend, Asha might have preferred independence.

21 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

If the navy at Lannisport is sufficient to destroy the iron fleet, why were they not present at Blackwater or to fend off Eurons raids?

It's not sufficient by itself, but it can certainly help.

21 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

But no counter offer was made. It was ignored. 

Haggling only works when both sides communicate.

No counter offers were made because both Tyrion and Cersei are fools, and because Tywin already had a solution to his problem when he got the letter.

[The Wolves]

Of course Balon was a horrible military commander he thought he was going to hold land from the north. He also sacrificed his men for little to no gains the guy was stupid. 

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, Sullen said:

Popular opinion won't have time to fall, Balon will bend as soon as the time to do so comes.

How?

 

1 hour ago, Sullen said:

Except it was 10 years ago, Balon has no reason to believe it'll be any different this time around.

The Crownlands aren't too fucked, and in any case, all of them have more food than the Iron Isles.

Everything is different. There was a pretender dead already

Tyrion burnt all the crowns adjacent land, others did that other places. The Isles is one of the only places untouched.

1 hour ago, Sullen said:

Stannis's and Redwyne's... mostly Redwyne's in truth, and the Redwyne fleet is still standing. Not only that, but Balon began his first Rebellion by burning the Lannister fleet to limit reprisals, and that fleet has been rebuilt since then.

Tyrion and Cersei are fools for not even bothering to open negotiations while not even having a fair plan to deal with Robb, unlike Tywin..

If the thrones fleet is anything good why is it so useless?

Balon was killing northmen anyway. Why pay a volunteer

1 hour ago, Sullen said:

 

Keep sending them, they can't ignore you forever.

That's insane. Blow up his phone and Facebook? He was ignored 3 times its over.

Balon wanted independence. He has a history of rejecting Westeros norms link Masters and the Faith. And declaring independence twice.

 Ironborn are natraully independent. Where else can a present command a lord but on his own ship? Where else can one hear voices at a kingsmoot.

He taught Asha that in a cornor honor and pride are worthless, but he still has some, he'd never wear jewelry bought with gold. Its good to be the king; nobody really wants to give that up

1 hour ago, Sullen said:

It's not sufficient by itself, but it can certainly help.

Against subduing islands?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

14 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

Of course Balon was a horrible military commander he thought he was going to hold land from the north.

Which he successfully did.

14 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

 

He also sacrificed his men for little to no gains the guy was stupid. 

How many men? We really don't hear of many casualties while Balon was alive.

[The Wolves]

53 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Which he successfully did.

How many men? We really don't hear of many casualties while Balon was alive.

How do you call what Balon did successful? 

What did Balon get from holding land in the north? Even if the Northmen didn't come kick their asses out winter would have done the job. So what did Balon get that anybody would call his campaign successful? 

They also wouldn't have held on to any part of the north for long with winter coming. 

And one man dying for land that they couldn't possibly hold, live off of or inhabit is one too many. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

5 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

How do you call what Balon did successful? 

Trick question?

His plan was to take the coast, take Deepwood Motte and take Moat Cailin. All of which he accomplished with little in the way of casualties.

His plans may not have been as grandiose as others but he was successful and more importantly his success cost him very little.

5 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

What did Balon get from holding land in the north? Even if the Northmen didn't come kick their asses out winter would have done the job. So what did Balon get that anybody would call his campaign successful? 

He was in it for the long haul. What you are referring to is short term gains, a thinking that had cost the Ironborn in the past. Balon's plan of securing the coast and Moat Cailin  put them in a very good position. Once Robb had been defeated, either by his enemies in the South or by Victarion at Moat Cailin, then further gains could be made.

 

5 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

They also wouldn't have held on to any part of the north for long with winter coming. 

Sure they would. They would have at least held on to the coast and Eastern settlements they had taken.

With Robb and the Northern army defeated there was little resistance that he had to worry about.

5 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

And one man dying for land that they couldn't possibly hold, live off of or inhabit is one too many. 

You seem to be dodging my point. Far, far fewer Ironborn died for Balon's plan than did in Tywin, Robb or Stannis' plans.

And they were holding on to it, comfortably so. That changed after he died and Euron decided to exit the North but the actual books show the Ironborn comfortably holding the gains that Balon had planned for.

[The Wolves]

3 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Trick question?

His plan was to take the coast, take Deepwood Motte and take Moat Cailin. All of which he accomplished with little in the way of casualties.

His plans may not have been as grandiose as others but he was successful and more importantly his success cost him very little.

He was in it for the long haul. What you are referring to is short term gains, a thinking that had cost the Ironborn in the past. Balon's plan of securing the coast and Moat Cailin  put them in a very good position. Once Robb had been defeated, either by his enemies in the South or by Victarion at Moat Cailin, then further gains could be made.

 

Sure they would. They would have at least held on to the coast and Eastern settlements they had taken.

With Robb and the Northern army defeated there was little resistance that he had to worry about.

You seem to be dodging my point. Far, far fewer Ironborn died for Balon's plan than did in Tywin, Robb or Stannis' plans.

And they were holding on to it, comfortably so. That changed after he died and Euron decided to exit the North but the actual books show the Ironborn comfortably holding the gains that Balon had planned for.

What makes you think they would have held out anywhere during a northern winter? 

It isn't even winter in ADWD and we see how non northerners are struggling in the north/weather yet you keep arguing that the Ironborn would have succeeded in the winter. 

Also Moat Cailin was killing the Ironborn we see how they are faring when Theon comes to get them to surrender they're barely holding on. And Robb said it himself that Moat Cailin isn't a land that anybody could just live off of. 

The Ironborn was only comfortable in Deepwood and we saw how that went. And what eastern settlements the only strongholds the Ironborn captured from what I remembered was Winterfell, Moat Cailin, Deepwood Moat, and Torrhen Square. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

1 minute ago, The Wolves said:

What makes you think they would have held out anywhere during a northern winter? 

They controlled the coast, would have supply lines, would have access to stored supplies of the holdfasts they had taken and would have little actual resistance in the North.

The Winter was not the problem for Balon.

1 minute ago, The Wolves said:

It isn't even winter in ADWD and we see how non northerners are struggling in the north/weather yet you keep arguing that the Ironborn would have succeeded in the winter. 

They would have. They are not magically going to lose what they had already gained and winter works both ways. It would be just as hard as armies to form from Karhold and Flints Fingers and travel to try and retake their properties.

Winter would have protected the west of the North.

1 minute ago, The Wolves said:

Also Moat Cailin was killing the Ironborn we see how they are faring when Theon comes to get them to surrender they're barely holding on. And Robb said it himself that Moat Cailin isn't a land that anybody could just live off of. 

It was killing them when Euron abandoned them and they no longer had water and food supplies coming from the coast like they did when Vicatarion was there and Balon was still in charge.

And despite the lack of water, the majority of the men having left and the Ironborn turning on each other the Northern army was still reluctant to attack it. Needing Theon to sweet talk a victory.

1 minute ago, The Wolves said:

The Ironborn was only comfortable in Deepwood and we saw how that went. And what eastern settlements the only strongholds the Ironborn captured from what I remembered was Winterfell, Moat Cailin, Deepwood Moat, and Torrhen Square. 

How many more do they need? There would be enough food supplies from those settlements to feed the Ironborn during Winter.

[The Wolves]

23 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

They controlled the coast, would have supply lines, would have access to stored supplies of the holdfasts they had taken and would have little actual resistance in the North.

The Winter was not the problem for Balon.

They would have. They are not magically going to lose what they had already gained and winter works both ways. It would be just as hard as armies to form from Karhold and Flints Fingers and travel to try and retake their properties.

Winter would have protected the west of the North.

It was killing them when Euron abandoned them and they no longer had water and food supplies coming from the coast like they did when Vicatarion was there and Balon was still in charge.

And despite the lack of water, the majority of the men having left and the Ironborn turning on each other the Northern army was still reluctant to attack it. Needing Theon to sweet talk a victory.

How many more do they need? There would be enough food supplies from those settlements to feed the Ironborn during Winter.

Why do you keep insisting that winter would not have been a problem for Balon especially given what we know about the north's cruel winters? Plus the north is not about to get just any of their 5 years of a harsh cruel winter. They are about to get a winter that hasn't happened in thousands of years so why do you persist that Balon/Ironborn would have been okay? 

Winter is not an element the Ironborn would have done well in. The western coast of the north would have worked as against the Ironborn as anywhere else in the north. And the Northmen are equipped to travel hundreds of miles in the winter that's exactly when they would have attacked. They have a better adventage having thousands of years of knowledge of fighting in the north's type of winters.