[Spoilers] Rant and Rave Without Reprecussions - Season 6, Tally-Ho

[Neds Secret]

10 hours ago, b09boy said:

Rant and rave without repercussion, eh?

*cracks knuckles*

Alright, I'm game.

It's driving me insane the kool-aid everybody is drinking regarding this show.  All the reviewers, the critics, the articles just piling on the praise endlessly to the point where it's actually difficult to find anything critical about the show.  Every time something gets brought up, time and again, it gets whitewashed away like, 'this is the show, it is it's own entity,' or 'you're just mad because it's not the exact same as the book.'  Like you cannot have a negative opinion about this masterpiece because the root of that opinion comes down to the simple fact that the show changes some things.  Sure, this is true to some extent; it's extremely disappointing some of the things they've cut from the books, but they have seriously disrupted a ton of development and plots as well to make what's really a nonsensical mess.

You want to pinpoint the source of all this, I think it all comes back to season 2.  The amount they cut out and changed from this season to simplify it absolutely brutalized the show and left them running to catch up, which created a progressive list of changes until the show came to be where it is at now: a very pale shadow of its source material which is somehow going through the motions while still being its own thing.  Now sure, some of it was...ok.  Dany didn't have much to work with in that chapter of her story and the one key scene which struck chords would be extremely spoiler heavy if actually pictured, and the Harrenhall plot, while it was extremely disappointing not to see the dark depths it went to, at least kinda sorta kept pace with where the story was supposed to be, and the Tywin/Arya scenes were interesting.  But then we get Bran, for who almost all the major characters were pushed right or cut entirely, not only making his story a complete drag, but making it so that a couple of these characters need to be introduced and developed later. Or they push Ramsay, which not only cuts out one of his great moments of true villainy, but has the showrunners needing to make up for it in the following seasons to let us know what a twisted character he is when the following seasons are already jam packed full of major events.  Or North of the Wall, where Jon's story is...wow.  Like, I don't know what they were thinking, pushing out the crap they did.  I suppose it was something along the lines of, another hint of the Others here, a bit more of a fan favorite character there, but dear sweet Martin, no!  No!  To do all this they have to completely regress Jon's character to retread the whole story about learning to lead by following again, so not only do we have to witness this entire story arc again where he's clashing with figures of authority, not only does he suddenly become the most inept character in the show when previously he was very capable, not only do they basically cut out one of the best stories of the book featuring a lot of great characters which teaches Jon the depths of discipline and sacrifice, not only did they do this to feature a character who is going to be around for another two seasons, but they completely missed the fact that this is the only exciting thing Jon is going to be doing for something like two seasons and they will now have to compensate for this fact.  All this for what, exactly?  Were they short on time so they felt like cutting a few things?  Nah, not really.  A lot of it was spent to focus more on Robb.  Not his battles and strategy, mind you, or featuring any more of the Stark army (notice how we know more grunts in the Nights Watch than we do generals or soldiers in Robb's army), no it's to develop his relationship with a camp follower.  

So that all happens and suddenly the third season, as well as juggling a ton of plots and new characters, has to introduce to us and develop Jojen, Meera and Ramsay, has to find a way to make Jon not an inept carpet, all the while introducing and developing the Brotherhood, Mance, Tormund, the giants, and hey, weren't there supposed to be a few more major wildling players, the Ironborn, and Dorn?  Guess that all had to be pushed right as well.  But hey, it was awesome how much chaos Jon and a wolf managed to cause a huge party of wildlings.  I never knew two entities standing in the open in broad daylight could make so many dozens of people run around like chickens with their heads cut off for minutes on end.  I guess he ISN'T inept after all.  Thus it continues to escalate, where they keep pushing things right, keep combining characters, keep showing increased favoritism, and keep creating progressively larger original plots until...

...until we've got a plot where Jaime and Bronn are on a wacky adventure to Dorn facing off against the dreaded (beautiful) Sand Snakes, Sansa is flipping off all back room politics to take the place of Jeyne Pool and get raped and tortured by Boltons for...no reason at all, Barristan is killed in a back alley brawl while the ever loyal Daario and Jorah go to find Dany and Tyrion sits in charge of Mereen, Brienne is showing ain't no man gonna keep her down by outmuscling and outpunching the likes of the Hound (after starting the fight with him for...reasons...instead of saying or doing any of the many collected things she learned which might have actually won Arya over) only to forget about her and travel north just in time to stumble into her revenge, Stannis is sacrificing his daughter because snow is keeping his army from attacking the castle that's within walking distance and supplies are short because Ramsay and 20 good men somehow managed to quietly start fires simultaneously throughout an enormous and frozen camp without anyone noticing.  Among many, many, many other things.

Yet somehow critics just don't seem to notice how mind-numbing stupid all this has become.  And yeah, I get that the fourth and fifth books are considered slower than most the rest of the series.  But then, why did they cut basically every major badass event which happens in those books?  How is it that they've somehow cut out or combined together two major wars central to the later story?

But "the Northmen know this country better than we ever will! Vomit! They are pyrotechnicians as well, what a freaking joke, I hate listening to Davos tell Stannis about it, it's absolute mind boggling BS, totally unbelievable! There!!!

[Neds Secret]

10 hours ago, Valetudo said:

That's just awful.

That's an article that is supposedly comparing GRRM work with Tolkien, using the show as proof that GRRM work isn't that great.

While it's always good to see some people calling out the show, the fusion that these self proclaimed critics do between the show and the books has to stop.

He spends the all article talking about Tolkiens books,saying that they're not as black or white and misogynistic as what people believe (fair enough), but then, comparing with aSoIaF (you know, GRRM's books, and not GOT like he's saying), the only thing he says is one sentence saying that all the characters are grey and then this mini tantrum that was quoted. 

Where can he see the use of "semi-naked background" in the books for example?

He's basically doing the same thing that he's complaining about in his article: Judging a creative work based in wrong assumptions.

After writing 2 paragraphs explaining that women are important in tLotR, how can he reduce the role of women in aSoIaF as background nudity and rape plot devices?

Yes, I agree, but I believe that GRRM has played a role in creating  this confusion as well beacause people assume GoT is an accurate telling of the tale because of his involvement. Sigh!

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, bemused said:

There was a casting call out for a short female actress (IIRC, under 5 feet), adult, but capable of playing young.. (somewhere months back on WotW). Sounds very much like a Leaf recast, and in the screen grab of a fleeing Hodor (pulling sledge) he was accompanied by (probably) Meera and another smaller person.

Oh, great. Thanks, bemused, for crushing my hopes of being spared more CotF atrocity.

[LazyBazooka]

Sense is sacrificed for shock.

Having Stannis fish from Long Lake or eating all that horse meat they recently acquired would interfere with him burning his daughter, and having Davos rescue Shireen because he knew it was about to happen would disrupt it too.

Having Sansa refuse the vague jazz hands "avenge them" plot and not marry into the family that killed her mother and brother would interfere with the rape, which is the paradigm of shock and we couldn't possibly just write something else entirely like we normally do, no no, we HAD to have Sansa raped. Our hands were tied, don't ask why.

Having Littlefinger know about Ramsay would make him look like a bad person, and we can't have the man who killed Ned look like a bad person.

Having Jon tell the Night's Watch about what happened at Hardhome would prevent the mutiny from occurring, so we'll just have him conveniently stay silent.

Having Tommen issue a royal decree demanding his sister be returned to KL would interfere with the Larry/Bronn buddy trip in Porne, and would remove gems like Bad Pussy and Tyene's bewbs, can't have that.

The rules of the universe bend and characters' brains have to be reduced to mashed potatoes so that the plot can work. 

[Le Cygne]

6 minutes ago, LazyBazooka said:

Sense is sacrificed for shock.

Having Stannis fish from Long Lake or eating all that horse meat they recently acquired would interfere with him burning his daughter, and having Davos rescue Shireen because he knew it was about to happen would disrupt it too.

Having Sansa refuse the vague jazz hands "avenge them" plot and not marry into the family that killed her mother and brother would interfere with the rape, which is the paradigm of shock and we couldn't possibly just write something else entirely like we normally do, no no, we HAD to have Sansa raped. Our hands were tied, don't ask why.

Having Littlefinger know about Ramsay would make him look like a bad person, and we can't have the man who killed Ned look like a bad person.

Having Jon tell the Night's Watch about what happened at Hardhome would prevent the mutiny from occurring, so we'll just have him conveniently stay silent.

Having Tommen issue a royal decree demanding his sister be returned to KL would interfere with the Larry/Bronn buddy trip in Porne, and would remove gems like Bad Pussy and Tyene's bewbs, can't have that.

The rules of the universe bend and characters' brains have to be reduced to mashed potatoes so that the plot can work. 

What an excellent rant. The jazz hands avenge them plot!

[Neds Secret]

7 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah, it works really well as a form of therapy. Especially when the show is on and all you hear everywhere you turn is how AWESOME it is, and you feel like you've just parachuted from another galaxy.

I agree, I find it very cathartic!

[Prince of the North]

4 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

That didn't bother me really, some stuff in the books would really be visually over the top and doesn't add much to the story, like Vargo and Daario's book appearance, just too much. I don't care how many eyes he has, but, ya know if he's got 2 eyes then he can't talk about a thousand eyes and one.  Just like if Cersei and Bob had a black haired beauty that died as an infant...then Maggie is totally full of shit and not worth a damn when she prophecies that Cersei has 3 children.

It's the sloppy that bothers me.

Me, too.  And while, yes, I think the brightly hair and beards and the freaky hairstyles in parts of Essos probably are not necessary making Bloodraven look just a little bit Targaryen, have an eye patch, and maybe even have a birthmark would have been completely fine.

4 hours ago, Metopheles said:

Sorry, but Bloodraven/Three eyed raven .. it is a plot point, his major characteristic, that he has one eye. A thousand eyes and one.

GRRM is overall a nutter for eyes. He really puts emphasis on their colour and shape.. It is ok that not all have the right colour or amount, but BR having one red eye is a major detail, as are the purple Targ eyes. And I do not care if there are stories of poor actors not being comfortable wearing contacts. It is an important point. And there are various ways of creating these illusions of purple eyes and missing eyes that are very cheap and easy to do.

They were able to do a stump for Jaime and stumps for Davos and Sandor's burned face

 

4 hours ago, LordCommanderSnow said:

Just a quick question, why the hell doesn't Euron have a eyepatch in the show? It's not like they haven't done it before (Beric).

Agreed for both the above.  They didn't have any trouble doing the eye patch for Beric as just one example.  It's like the show can't even be bothered anymore.

3 hours ago, Ruhail said:

Because anything fun and fantastical has to be stripped out and repaced with dull, mundane and boring looking visiuals

Yes, and I 'll even take it further and say that the show's MO is "If it doesn't matter, keep it.  If it matters, change it!".

4 minutes ago, LazyBazooka said:

Sense is sacrificed for shock.

Having Stannis fish from Long Lake or eating all that horse meat they recently acquired would interfere with him burning his daughter, and having Davos rescue Shireen because he knew it was about to happen would disrupt it too.

Having Sansa refuse the vague jazz hands "avenge them" plot and not marry into the family that killed her mother and brother would interfere with the rape, which is the paradigm of shock and we couldn't possibly just write something else entirely like we normally do, no no, we HAD to have Sansa raped. Our hands were tied, don't ask why.

Having Littlefinger know about Ramsay would make him look like a bad person, and we can't have the man who killed Ned look like a bad person.

Having Jon tell the Night's Watch about what happened at Hardhome would prevent the mutiny from occurring, so we'll just have him conveniently stay silent.

Having Tommen issue a royal decree demanding his sister be returned to KL would interfere with the Larry/Bronn buddy trip in Porne, and would remove gems like Bad Pussy and Tyene's bewbs, can't have that.

The rules of the universe bend and characters' brains have to be reduced to mashed potatoes so that the plot can work. 

Amen.  And I'm still looking for someone, anyone to tell me what Little finger even hoped to gain by giving Sansa to the Boltons.  What was even in it for him?  

[Le Cygne]

1 minute ago, Prince of the North said:

Amen.  And I'm still looking for someone, anyone to tell me what Little finger even hoped to gain by giving Sansa to the Boltons.  What was even in it for him?  

It's dumb as hell, he also gave up Sweetrobin. REALISTICALLY, he'd never get either one back in his clutches.

[Prince of the North]

Just now, Le Cygne said:

It's dumb as hell, he also gave up Sweetrobin. REALISTICALLY, he'd never get either one back in his clutches.

Exactly!  But, seriously, what was even given, explained, or even alluded to in the show for what Littlefinger was getting out of delivering Sansa to the Boltons?  Was there anything?  Or was it really just Littlefinger selflessly helping Sansa to get revenge for her family and that was it?

[Le Cygne]

10 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

Exactly!  But, seriously, what was even given, explained, or even alluded to in the show for what Littlefinger was getting out of delivering Sansa to the Boltons?  Was there anything?  Or was it really just Littlefinger selflessly helping Sansa to get revenge for her family and that was it?

And of course, what revenge. Any twisting around to make sense of it only makes it worse. They gutted characters and storylines across the board so she could be raped. Now she wants revenge again. They repeated her earlier storyline and now they are repeating this storyline. It's the only thing in their bag of tricks.

[LazyBazooka]

7 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

Amen.  And I'm still looking for someone, anyone to tell me what Little finger even hoped to gain by giving Sansa to the Boltons.  What was even in it for him?  

It was so he could go to Cersei and be all like "hey the Boltons have Sansa and they're planning to marry her to Ramsay, let me take the Vale to go take Winterfell and name me Warden of the North when I do" and Cersei is all like "k". The thing is though, he didn't actually need to give Sansa to the Boltons for this to work, he literally just tells Cersei she's in Winterfell and she believes him, doesn't ask for proof or anything, so Littlefinger could've just lied about it and the result would've been the exact same.

[Le Cygne]

But part of the deal was he gives her Fansa's head on a spike. So it's not even like he's going to play ball with Cersei. So why start the game. He has the Vale in his pocket anyway. Sweetrobin lurves him. Bronze Yohn is his patsy. What does he need Cersei for? It's like they just wanted to show how clever he is, but he wasn't actually doing anything.

[Prince of the North]

6 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

And of course, what revenge. Any twisting around to make sense of it only makes it worse. They gutted characters and storylines across the board so she could be raped. Now she wants revenge again. They repeated her earlier storyline and now they are repeating this storyline. It's the only thing in their bag of tricks.

Oh, yes, it's complete nonsense but I was seriously trying to remember if the show even established any motivation for LF to do this?  Silly me, I know, looking for things like motivation or, you know, reasons!  LadyBazooka explains it to me below. 

3 minutes ago, LazyBazooka said:

It was so he could go to Cersei and be all like "hey the Boltons have Sansa and they're planning to marry her to Ramsay, let me take the Vale to go take Winterfell and name me Warden of the North when I do" and Cersei is all like "k". The thing is though, he didn't actually need to give Sansa to the Boltons for this to work, he literally just tells Cersei she's in Winterfell and she believes him, doesn't ask for proof or anything, so Littlefinger could've just lied about it and the result would've been the exact same.

Ah, thanks!  This rings a bell now.  You're right, he didn't even really need to go through with it.  Also, there's perhaps my all-time favorite bit of nonsense.  The fact that Littlefinger supposedly has the Vale's loyalty in the show!  Uh...why?!!

[Prince of the North]

4 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

But part of the deal was he gives her Fansa's head on a spike. So it's not even like he's going to play ball with Cersei. So why start the game. He has the Vale in his pocket anyway. Sweetrobin lurves him. Bronze Yohn is his patsy. What does he need Cersei for? It's like they just wanted to show how clever he is, but he wasn't actually doing anything.

Agreed.  Needlessly convoluted.  But when the reason for it is really just to replace Jeyne Poole with Sansa it all becomes clear.  Shitty writing.

[Le Cygne]

Also of course, realistically the Boltons would have just killed LF. He never would have made it out the gates. But then again, realistically they'd all be dead, after breathing in all the stoopid for five seasons.

[Neds Secret]

50 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

Exactly!  But, seriously, what was even given, explained, or even alluded to in the show for what Littlefinger was getting out of delivering Sansa to the Boltons?  Was there anything?  Or was it really just Littlefinger selflessly helping Sansa to get revenge for her family and that was it?

Yeah, but he got deliver the lines with that rasping accent he has picked up of late!!

[Neds Secret]

43 minutes ago, LazyBazooka said:

It was so he could go to Cersei and be all like "hey the Boltons have Sansa and they're planning to marry her to Ramsay, let me take the Vale to go take Winterfell and name me Warden of the North when I do" and Cersei is all like "k". The thing is though, he didn't actually need to give Sansa to the Boltons for this to work, he literally just tells Cersei she's in Winterfell and she believes him, doesn't ask for proof or anything, so Littlefinger could've just lied about it and the result would've been the exact same.

My god, you're right, why didn't chaotic  mastermind Batfinger dream this up? Aaaghhh!

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, Joan Jett said:

And it's illogical. Ramsay has been hunting girls with dogs for a while and I'm pretty sure in the beginning of season 5 he was bragging about how he went to some lord's castle and flayed him for something having to do with taxes. How does word of that not get out?? Also why wouldn't LF at least try to find some info on him while they were riding North?? If he wanted Sansa to "make Ramsay hers" he should have at least tried to figure him out a bit to help her get ~vengeance. Like at a tavern or inn. LF being completely ignorant of Ramsay doesn't make sense.

Nope it doesnt make any sense. Apparently any of the spies in the North that could inform LF and Varys about Cat leaving on a ship for KL went up in smoke when WF burned.

[Morna The Maid]

Thanks for the warm welcome guys! You remind me of the Fellowship at TheOneRing.net. I love how this place is its own little subculture. And I have a feeling it's about to get a whole lot bigger. So, if I may be allowed a small sacrilege in this GRRM sanctuary, let me lift a pint of ale and toast you all, "Elen' sila ulmenn ulmuntilvo," "A Star shines on the hour of our meeting," I don't think this is out of place!

Just a reply to several people.

Sir Loin Steak, brilliant! Let me add one to the list:

Having *giant invisible arrows* in the costumes/camera angles etc pointing down to people, telling visual cues for how the viewers should feel about that character. Like we need to be manipluated by D/D any more. We can even start with the trailer already! eg: a GIGANTIC St Tyrion walking down the steps in the Meereen throne room, descending from on high to all those LITTLE "Great" masters/SoTH's. Oh, the symbolic genius of D/D! (TM)! Tyrion is the "little person" but he is ST TYRION so he is now BIG! And the tall men below are so LITTLE! B/c ST Tyrion, the PTWP,  is really a GIANT AMONG MEN! We get it! All bow for Dave and Dan, First of Their Names, Tall-Talkers, Short-Changers, Dippers of Quills in Ink Of (Our) Blood, Breakers of Friendships, Counters of Beans, Masters of Lies, Lies And Ever-More Lies, Kings of the Gullible, Perverse, and the  Ignorant Among Men...

..but wait, I  thought themes/symbolism are for 8th grade book reports!

And that blue and white Ostrich plume on Mace's head. Seriously, WTF?!?! If I want Monty Python I'll pop in my Holy Grail DVD. Nothing like a COSTUME CUE that screams from *10 miles away* LOOK AT THE IDIOT! HARDY HAR HAR everybody!

[Morna The Maid]

Tepid Hands: Thanks for the welcome. Don't worry, I know not to feed the trolls, as we say at TORN. I'm an old hand at this.

Lady Softheart, ditto. I've heard of Dorothy Dunnett but it was one of those things that I have always had on my list but never got around to reading. I love recommendations, and historical fic is my fave genre.

Speaking of which, Kissed By Fire, Le Cygne, I think it's you guys, thanks for the Outlander links and kudos, I'm a "Lady of Lallybroch" too. I can't stand romance as genre, but someone gave me Outlander about a decade ago and I LOVE it. Please let them get to a Season 6, I can't freakin' wait until Lizzie is cast, how are they going to handle Lizzie and the Beardsleys if you remember the chapters I mean. I dare not say more for fear of major spoilerage of Book 6, "A Breath Of Snow And Ashes." O...M...G....that is still one of the funniest things I've ever read in my life. Pure epic comic GENIUS from Gabaldon. AMIRITE?

 

KissedByFire re: Emilia Clarke. That interview. Yes, she has learned to play the Game well. As have Sophie and Maisie. Well, they have to or be blacklisted, they're much more vulnerable for now, but she has no excuse. But she's a great actress though.

Sean F: your reply to my random Tolkien ramblings is much appreciated. You comfort me. it's something I've not thought of before: that ASOIAF probably will follow Tolkien into university classrooms someday, in courses on Medieval studies. Maybe it already has? As Tolkien has had the last laugh, Martin might too. Let's just hope he finishes it in time to see its legacy firmly established. As time goes on, people might begin to think that tits dragons and a world where half the buildings are brothels is not the best way to learn about the Middle Ages....

 

Sweetsunray: I have a question about Dawn. How do you think the props people could create a believable Dawn though, that the actor could fight with? I mean, if it's a great huge sword and all? I mean look at Ice. Dang, that thing was big. It was a real "hero sword" and Sean Bean could barely swing it, even downwards. I always pictured the guy playing Dayne to be almost Mountain huge to have a sword like that. It couldn't just be a great looking carved decorated sword, it has to be noticeable. So how would they do it? the geekier on this topic the better please.