Discussing Sansa XX: Run, Sansa, run...

[Maxxine]

5 hours ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

Another article makes an excellent point about the problem in the pledge of fealty scene.

Theon should be the one who going all "Don't trust her! It's a trick", because it's been established that he has been brainwashed into not trusting anyone, even his sister, in that awful runaway from the dogs scene is season 4.

Sansa, on the other hand, knows Podric from her days in KL, and has met Brienne before, so she would have far more reason to trust them as not connected to Ramsay and genuinely wants to help her.

Instead in this episode it's Sansa who's unsure and Theon who nods his head.  Why?  

This is in the end is my biggest complaint about the show, and it has nothing to do with simply because they change things from the books. They frequently don't pay attention to continuity, to rules and personalities that they've previously established on the show, and simply have characters do things in a particular scene because they want it in that scene, even if it completely contradicts everything that has come before.

 

 

 

I understand Sansa looking at Theon during the fealty scene. At the end of the day she's known this guy her whole life and he helped her escape Winterfell and had just willingly sacrificed himself for her. On the other hand, yes she knew who Pod was, but I don't think they had any real interactions for her to trust him. Yeah he's not associated with Ramsay but he is associated with the Lannisters, which to Sansa may be just as bad. And she only met Brienne once.

And as far Theon being trusting when it goes against his personality because of being brainwashed I get your point, but I think this has more to do with TV as a medium as opposed to the writers ignoring continuity. Theon goes through a big internal change while in Winterfell (getting back to Theon after being Reek) which is very evident in the books, so his change is understood and not inconsistent. It's not easy to convey an internal change through the tv as it is in the book. 

[Stangler]

1 minute ago, Les Météores D said:

Now that I think about it, the only thing that was inconsistent imo with that plot was that LF had absolutely nothing on Ramsay and even told him so to his face. But how much did Roose hide from Ned and then Robb of what was going on in his land? did they knew of rumors about Domeric and Ramsay at all? I can't remember. Theon knew nothing about Ramsay either.

There is inconsistency with the book and the show. In the book plenty of people know Ramsey is a monster because he starved a woman to death and there are rumors of his hunts.

In the show LF is either unaware or he is lying. 

[Clash]

12 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

Which would be a very plausible reason to seek out those bannermen.  That is not remotely a plausible reason to go to Winterfell, where the Boltons would have control of her and be able to stop her from interacting with those bannermen.

Except that Sansa is only with Littlefinger at that point because she wants to be, even if the show were playing it as manipulative, when everybody was always talking about how she had "a real choice".

She doesn't know who's loyal to the Starks and who to the Boltons. So far as she knows on the show, Ramsay has no, ahem... peccadilloes. There's every likelihood that the lady of Winterfell will be interacting with her bannermen, anything else would be highly unusual (even if subsequently proven true). She makes assumptions, helped on by Littlefingers sales spiels. We know that at best he's misinformed, she doesn't know a thing.

[Stannistician]

37 minutes ago, Les Météores D said:

But taking part in LF's plan means going against the crown/Cersei, Sansa knows that because LF basically tells her the Boltons are going to break the alliance with the Lannisters.

In the best case scenario: she would get revenge, she'd get Winterfell and the Dreadfort for her heir and if the North secede again, she can take the Stark name back without Tommen's accord because... who cares? the Northern lords would back her over the Lannisters in a heartbeat. 

Do you think that it would bother the northern lords at all if Sansa had a Bolton child?  Would Stannis care?  Jon Snow?  Most importantly, would Sansa care (the person making the decision)?  It's way too big of a personal risk for Sansa to even consider this plan.

@Clash:  She did not know her brothers were alive at the time she decided to go along with LF's plan.  She does know that the Boltons murdered her brother and conspired to murder her mother and other Stark loyalists.  I'm sure she is also aware (as are northern lords) of the history of the Boltons in the north.   

[Les Météores D]

2 minutes ago, Stangler said:

There is inconsistency with the book and the show. In the book plenty of people know Ramsey is a monster because he starved a woman to death and there are rumors of his hunts.

In the show LF is either unaware or he is lying. 

Yeah that's right, although it's never mentioned in the show so there's an ambiguity concerning the rumors because we don't have them discussed by any other characters. In any case LF has to know about the flayings, it's public knowledge at this point, and it's unrealistic that he wouldn't dig stuff about Ramsay.

[Stangler]

18 minutes ago, Maxxine said:

I understand Sansa looking at Theon during the fealty scene. At the end of the day she's known this guy her whole life and he helped her escape Winterfell and had just willingly sacrificed himself for her. On the other hand, yes she knew who Pod was, but I don't think they had any real interactions for her to trust him. Yeah he's not associated with Ramsay but he is associated with the Lannisters, which to Sansa may be just as bad. And she only met Brienne once.

And as far Theon being trusting when it goes against his personality because of being brainwashed I get your point, but I think this has more to do with TV as a medium as opposed to the writers ignoring continuity. Theon goes through a big internal change while in Winterfell (getting back to Theon after being Reek) which is very evident in the books, so his change is understood and not inconsistent. It's not easy to convey an internal change through the tv as it is in the book. 

The show LF either seems incompetent or really nasty. I think they will play it off as him being incompetent. 

[Ludo Kressh]

1 hour ago, McAssey said:

They survived in pure Hollywood style: there was a big cart full of hay at the base of the wall conveniently just beneath them.

Actually it was a pile of cardboard boxes, but yeah, pure Hollywood style.

[Zara Zokan]

Sansa just isn't Sansa any more. They want to tell the story of an empowered Woman On Top^TM  but don't actually want to tell the story of Sansa.

"We can't all be Arya," but we can be a mishmash of Jeyne Poole, Kyra and Alys Karstark.

[Clash]

4 minutes ago, Zara Zokan said:

Sansa just isn't Sansa any more. They want to tell the story of an empowered Woman On Top^TM  but don't actually want to tell the story of Sansa.

"We can't all be Arya," but we can be a mishmash of Jeyne Poole, Kyra and Alys Karstark.

That's the closest thing to the truth written here so far. Shortcuts have consequences.

[Cas Stark]

22 hours ago, Clash said:

 

It's not an issue of short cuts.  It's an issue of bad plot and no attention or consistency in the character's actions.   Even putting aside the stupidity of every character involved in Sansa marrying Ramsay, she still could have been portrayed last season as a person who is attempting to master her surroundings...trying to find allies, trying to test and figure out the Boltons, or we could have been treated to what her idea of marrying for revenge actually was....and then once she decides to escape...to see her taking the initiative.  She convinces Theon to help her.  She doesn't request to be killed by Myranda.

It surely is not an issue of short cuts that she fears cold water more than Ramsay, and that Theon who has been brutalized for months and months and has been seriously tortured..... still has more of a survivor's instinct than she does.  These were particular decisions of the show that make her a continuing victim.

Even the forgetting the words, she could have momentarily forgotten them and REMEMBERED THEM HERSELF, instead of being fed the lines from Pod, like she's mentally challenged. 

[Clash]

11 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

It's not an issue of short cuts.  It's an issue of bad plot and no attention or consistency in the character's actions.   Even putting aside the stupidity of every character involved in Sansa marrying Ramsay, she still could have been portrayed last season as a person who is attempting to master her surroundings...trying to find allies, trying to test and figure out the Boltons, or we could have been treated to what her idea of marrying for revenge actually was....and then once she decides to escape...to see her taking the initiative.  She convinces Theon to help her.  She doesn't request to be killed by Myranda.

It surely is not an issue of short cuts that she fears cold water more than Ramsay, and that Theon who has been brutalized for months and months and has been seriously tortured..... still has more of a survivor's instinct than she does.  These were particular decisions of the show that make her a continuing victim.

Even the forgetting the words, she could have momentarily forgotten them and REMEMBERED THEM HERSELF, instead of being fed the lines from Pod, like she's mentally challenged. 

She is a victim and she doesn't have Theon's experiences of Ramsay to drive her on. She has an inkling but it's not nearly the same as what happened to him.

The shortcut is the combination of Jeyne and Sansa. Until show Sansa meets up with book Sansa there will often be inconsistencies. I don't think that's too far in the future either. There's a feeling of things coming to a head in show Sansa's arc that leads me to believe that.

[Cas Stark]

1 minute ago, Clash said:

She is a victim and she doesn't have Theon's experiences of Ramsay to drive her on. She has an inkling but it's not nearly the same as what happened to him.

The shortcut is the combination of Jeyne and Sansa. Until show Sansa meets up with book Sansa there will often be inconsistencies. I don't think that's too far in the future either. There's a feeling of things coming to a head in show Sansa's arc that leads me to believe that.

Um, yeah, that's because she is dumb as dirt in the show.

She found Theon living in a dog cage and is missing some fingers and now has a serious limp.  When she walked into WF there were flayed dead people hanging in the yard.  And then there's the whole having a third party in the bedroom on the wedding night.  If she only got an inkling from all that then she is dumb as dirt.

So, sorry, not buying it.  The guy who was tortured until he rejected his own name and identity, vs. Sansa, it is not believable that she is somehow more beaten down than he is.

No, there are characterization inconcisistencies because the show doesn't bother about such things, it is by no means necessary, nor would it even have been difficult to maintain consistency and believability even within the confines of the stupid as fuck story about her marrying Ramsy.

[Clash]

13 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Um, yeah, that's because she is dumb as dirt in the show.

She found Theon living in a dog cage and is missing some fingers and now has a serious limp.  When she walked into WF there were flayed dead people hanging in the yard.  And then there's the whole having a third party in the bedroom on the wedding night.  If she only got an inkling from all that then she is dumb as dirt.

So, sorry, not buying it.  The guy who was tortured until he rejected his own name and identity, vs. Sansa, it is not believable that she is somehow more beaten down than he is.

No, there are characterization inconcisistencies because the show doesn't bother about such things, it is by no means necessary, nor would it even have been difficult to maintain consistency and believability even within the confines of the stupid as fuck story about her marrying Ramsy.

There's a difference between seeing something happen to other people (some of whom you might believe deserve it) and believing that it will happen to you. Theon knows what will happen to him. Deep down in his bones knows it. So he doesn't hesitate to jump from the wall or into a freezing river. The worst thing that's happened to Sansa is a brutal rape that only Theon knows about. She's heard Myranda's threats and probably knows they're true, but each time she meets an obstacle she has to pause and balance the harm from that against what she feels will happen if she's taken. For me it's quite believable. Not so long ago, people walked into the gas chambers assuring themselves that they were only showers .

[Colonel Green]

1 hour ago, Clash said:

She doesn't know who's loyal to the Starks and who to the Boltons. So far as she knows on the show, Ramsay has no, ahem... peccadilloes. There's every likelihood that the lady of Winterfell will be interacting with her bannermen, anything else would be highly unusual (even if subsequently proven true). She makes assumptions, helped on by Littlefingers sales spiels. We know that at best he's misinformed, she doesn't know a thing.

No, that's not a plausible assumption.  The Boltons know who she is; they would not allow her to interact with bannermen in any way that would possibly be detrimental to them.  It's as simple as keeping guards in the room with her at all times, or maidservants.  And Sansa would know all this, because that's exactly what happened in King's Landing.  Nor does Sansa make any effort to hide her dislike of the Boltons in Winterfell, so she's not pretending to be their pal or win their trust.

[Direwight]

23 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

When she walked into WF there were flayed dead people hanging in the yard.

In the scene where she arrives at Winterfell? No, there weren't.

Hardly crucial to your point, though, but people have been claiming that for so long that it's hard to not correct.

[Cas Stark]

14 minutes ago, Clash said:

There's a difference between seeing something happen to other people (some of whom you might believe deserve it) and believing that it will happen to you. Theon knows what will happen to him. Deep down in his bones knows it. So he doesn't hesitate to jump from the wall or into a freezing river. The worst thing that's happened to Sansa is a brutal rape that only Theon knows about. She's heard Myranda's threats and probably knows they're true, but each time she meets an obstacle she has to pause and balance the harm from that against what she feels will happen if she's taken. For me it's quite believable. Not so long ago, people walked into the gas chambers assuring themselves that they were only showers .

But she already was ready to die rather than be taken back to Ramsay when she tells Myranda to just kill me already.  This is what the show showed me.  Sansa ready to die in Ep. 10 rather than remain Ramsay's wife, but somehow, by Ep.1 the next season, she isn't sure if Ramsay or cold water is worse.  I'm sorry.  It's poor characterization that can only be hand waved away by extremely illogical rationalizations.  Just like people will argue that when she turns up in 1 or 2 more episodes as the boss.ass.bitch giving orders and rallying the troops, people will claim that THAT is believable.

We will have to agree to disagree. The vast majority of show sansa's deisions since season 5 are stupid and inexplicable.

[Stangler]

17 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

But she already was ready to die rather than be taken back to Ramsay when she tells Myranda to just kill me already.  This is what the show showed me.  Sansa ready to die in Ep. 10 rather than remain Ramsay's wife, but somehow, by Ep.1 the next season, she isn't sure if Ramsay or cold water is worse.  I'm sorry.  It's poor characterization that can only be hand waved away by extremely illogical rationalizations.  Just like people will argue that when she turns up in 1 or 2 more episodes as the boss.ass.bitch giving orders and rallying the troops, people will claim that THAT is believable.

We will have to agree to disagree. The vast majority of show sansa's deisions since season 5 are stupid and inexplicable.

What are you talking about? She went in the water. She didn't want to go in the water because she thought she would die.

Her actions are absolutely not inexplicable. They are easily explained. 

At this point it is very easy to justify her working very hard to establish her own power in the north so that she is never at the will of another man again. 

[Clash]

19 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

But she already was ready to die rather than be taken back to Ramsay when she tells Myranda to just kill me already.  This is what the show showed me.  Sansa ready to die in Ep. 10 rather than remain Ramsay's wife, but somehow, by Ep.1 the next season, she isn't sure if Ramsay or cold water is worse.  I'm sorry.  It's poor characterization that can only be hand waved away by extremely illogical rationalizations.  Just like people will argue that when she turns up in 1 or 2 more episodes as the boss.ass.bitch giving orders and rallying the troops, people will claim that THAT is believable.

We will have to agree to disagree. The vast majority of show sansa's deisions since season 5 are stupid and inexplicable.

Do we know that wasn't a bluff? Myranda was bluffing but then played the maiming card instead when the bluff was called. In fact that's when Sansa showed some fear where before she seemed calmly accepting of her possible death.

I don't see the bad ass bitch giving orders in her future. Neither book Sansa or show Sansa has shwon any tendency in that direction. There's a bit of binary thinking going on where women especially, seem to be characterised by posters as either bad ass or wimps. There are other shades of charactarisation than this black and white view.

[Cas Stark]

1 minute ago, Stangler said:

What are you talking about? She went in the water. She didn't want to go in the water because she thought she would die.

Her actions are absolutely not inexplicable. They are easily explained. 

At this point it is very easy to justify her working very hard to establish her own power in the north so that she is never at the will of another man again. 

Sure, she went in the water after Theon had to talk her into it like she's a dim toddler who lacks any reasoning skills of her own.

[Stangler]

1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

Sure, she went in the water after Theon had to talk her into it like she's a dim toddler who lacks any reasoning skills of her own.

It is totally reasonable for her to be terrified of going in that water. It is also reasonable for her to think there could be another option, especially given how afraid she was.

Once again her actions are not inexplicable but easily understood by even a dim witted toddler.