Discussing Sansa XX: Run, Sansa, run...

[Tianzi]

36 minutes ago, Risto said:

The problem with Sansa, as I have stated, is that writers of the show simply have no idea who their version is supposed to be.

If a woman doesn't kick ass or at least arrange some assassination, they are lost. If only they could give her a spear...

Well, I agree with most of the criticism towards this character in a broader sense, but I just don't get it in regards of this episode. This is the one Sansa's scene, where they did nothing wrong (forgetting the line was completely understandable).

Apart for the dogs, lol. But they didn't look particularly bloodthirsty earlier, so maybe they just were Lawful Neutral.

(On that matter: Myranda stated that Ramsay couldn't do to her anything more than these dogs. Ramsay rapes and flays people, for the start. We need to learn more about these dogs.)
 

[Hoppy Hour]

On 25/4/2016 at 8:03 AM, Lord Lannister said:

They survived hypothermia the same way they survived that jump, in good enough shape to run, I expect.

Agreed.

[Woman of War]

57 minutes ago, Xarkar said:

Sometimes you need to hit rock bottom to rise up.

She hit rock bottom, and now with Brienne will begin her rise to power.  I suspect she will be more ruthless because of what she has gone though which is probably a good thing.  

All the scenes around Sansa were beautifully done, like in Season five she gets the best light and colors, that wonderfully poetic atmosphere, broken blues and greens, cold and yet soft.

Brienne presenting herself was heartbreaking and Sansa had a fragile dignity when reciting the formal text. I do not mind at all that she did not know the lines perfectly since she was never meant to say them, she has not been  brought up for it. And now she is there. An army of four, a beginning.

Apart from that there is certainly a reason that once again Pod is established as being more clever than he appears.

Only I wonder about the text. Did we ever hear it so clearly before? There was emphasis on (paraphrasing) "and I will never ask anything dishonorable from you" What might the dishonorable thing Sansa could ask from Brienne? There has been speculation that Sansa might take up parts of Lady Stoneheart. Will Brienne feel forced to become an oathbreaker?

[Stangler]

On 4/25/2016 at 1:40 PM, Dolorous Gabe said:

No he hasn't. The very thought of trying to escape sent him into terrified fits.

The nature of his fear is debatable. IMO he was trained to never show any hint he was thinking of escape but the nature of that conditioning meant he was always thinking about it and imagining how it would go wrong for him. 

The point remains that it is safe to assume that Reek would be better suited at trying to escape than Sansa would be in pretty much every possible way including developing a plan on how to do it and knowing just how hard he would have to push himself to get away. 

[Stangler]

2 hours ago, Risto said:

And that just speaks about the writing for this episode. If this was the only nice thing, what the hell are we watching?

The problem with Sansa, as I have stated, is that writers of the show simply have no idea who their version is supposed to be. That is why we have inconsistent shifts from Darth Sansa to rape victim, from manipulative to completely dependent. The problem is not that she could have froze to death or that dogs magically disappear, the problem is in this character that feels as empty as Turner's face sometimes (which in many occasions was deliberate)

I have been asking what is the point of this. The only answer I could provide is that perhaps they are trying to gradually make Sansa into a power-house. Perhaps this will be the season of her listening to many of these oaths, and this one serving us as just the first step.

 

I think that it has been pretty consistent. I think you are confusing her rocky road to her independence with consistency. She grew up day dreaming about being someone's wife but her story is really about her becoming truly independent. That is why the rest of the season will be about her raising the North. 

Her story has always been about shattering the princess trope and replacing it with one about the need for female independence.

Martin likes to take the old fantasy tropes and turn them on their head. He does the same with Brienne who is his version of the noble knight in shining armor who values honor above all else.  

[Mladen]

3 hours ago, Woman of War said:

Only I wonder about the text. Did we ever hear it so clearly before? There was emphasis on (paraphrasing) "and I will never ask anything dishonorable from you" What might the dishonorable thing Sansa could ask from Brienne? There has been speculation that Sansa might take up parts of Lady Stoneheart. Will Brienne feel forced to become an oathbreaker?

Catelyn also had the same line, loud and clear... It is part of the usual speech.

The pledge to Catelyn:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rE0XDWlHfs

The pledge to Sansa:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OOAEnazCs8

1 hour ago, Stangler said:

I think that it has been pretty consistent. I think you are confusing her rocky road to her independence with consistency. She grew up day dreaming about being someone's wife but her story is really about her becoming truly independent. That is why the rest of the season will be about her raising the North. 

Her story has always been about shattering the princess trope and replacing it with one about the need for female independence.

Martin likes to take the old fantasy tropes and turn them on their head. He does the same with Brienne who is his version of the noble knight in shining armor who values honor above all else.  

Let we leave GRRM out of this debate. He belonged here until the producers had his prose to lean on, now we are seeing what producers of TV show can write for us. The fact that Martin likes to subvert the tropes mean nothing for this debate.

There is no logical way of arguing that writing for Sansa was consistent. Fist they make leap in the end of Season 4, then they make her rape victim last year, this year apparently that had no bearing and purpose. In one episode she is manipulative, in the next she needs 50 people around her. There is no consistency in bringing up to where she is supposed to be. Within the books, this character is smarter with each new chapter, slowly taking her from the daydreaming girl to young woman with agency. In the show, she seems to have agency, then lose it, then get it again, then lose it again... It seems so random that it may depend on astrology, for all the logic that it has.

3 hours ago, Tianzi said:

If a woman doesn't kick ass or at least arrange some assassination, they are lost. If only they could give her a spear...

Well, I agree with most of the criticism towards this character in a broader sense, but I just don't get it in regards of this episode. This is the one Sansa's scene, where they did nothing wrong (forgetting the line was completely understandable).

Well, exactly... And this is the problem with how Hollywood sees feminism these days. If you are not wielding sword or demonstrating strength in any of the traditionally masculine way, your character can't be seen as feminist. All hell broke lose this winter when mediocre Will Smith wasn't nominated for Oscars, but no one spoke about incredibly beautiful and the only 100% feminine movie - "Carol" not getting the BP and director nod. The supposed role models are becoming more and more fantasy instead of real women that can set a real-life example for girls and women all over the world... But, back to the topic...

This episode is just a piece of a puzzle, and as such it gets criticized. Forgetting lines is something we would all forget, but this is the girl who jumped off the wall and now is scary of water, who needs Theon to confirm she can trust Brienne (she was able to make a choice not to trust her on her own, but she is not capable of making a choice to trust her on her own?) Instead of bringing us to the finishing line with each step closer, we seem to make giant leaps towards it and then we take several steps back. That, IMO, has become a huge problem.

[Raksha 2014]

3 hours ago, Tianzi said:

If a woman doesn't kick ass or at least arrange some assassination, they are lost. If only they could give her a spear...

Well, I agree with most of the criticism towards this character in a broader sense, but I just don't get it in regards of this episode. This is the one Sansa's scene, where they did nothing wrong (forgetting the line was completely understandable).

Apart for the dogs, lol. But they didn't look particularly bloodthirsty earlier, so maybe they just were Lawful Neutral.

(On that matter: Myranda stated that Ramsay couldn't do to her anything more than these dogs. Ramsay rapes and flays people, for the start. We need to learn more about these dogs.)
 

 

There have been, I believe, three sets of dogs used by Ramsay for various tasks:

1.  The dogs he used to track/hunt and attack the girl that he and Myranda killed.  I could not tell what breed they were; but they were definitely human-aggressive; and I don't think they had long/floppy ears.

2.  The dogs with whom Theon took refuge in the kennels, caged, when Yara came to free him - Rottweilers.

3. The dogs we saw on "The Red Woman" tracking and finding Theon/Sansa:  Bloodhounds.  They were good trackers and made a lot of noise, but although they kept Sansa in place, they did not harm her.  Bloodhounds are not vicious towards humans, it's usually the opposite.  Ramsay probably deliberately sent the Bloodhounds after Sansa and Theon, due to their superior scenting abilities and the necessity to retrieve Sansa undamaged.

I would imagine that as their handlers were being killed by Brienne, the Bloodhounds dispersed to get away from the noise and distress.  Also, it might have been dinner time back at Winterfell.

 

I don't quite understand why Sansa had to look to Theon for approval before accepting Brienne's fealty, but I did think the Sansa/Brienne interaction was the high point of the episode.

[JonSnow4President]

5 hours ago, Tianzi said:

If a woman doesn't kick ass or at least arrange some assassination, they are lost. If only they could give her a spear...

Well, I agree with most of the criticism towards this character in a broader sense, but I just don't get it in regards of this episode. This is the one Sansa's scene, where they did nothing wrong (forgetting the line was completely understandable).

Apart for the dogs, lol. But they didn't look particularly bloodthirsty earlier, so maybe they just were Lawful Neutral.

(On that matter: Myranda stated that Ramsay couldn't do to her anything more than these dogs. Ramsay rapes and flays people, for the start. We need to learn more about these dogs.)
 

Once again, it's the continuation of a pattern.  If this was the first thing where Sansa was OOC, I'd wave it off to trauma.  But this isn't the first time.

[Tianzi]

2 hours ago, Risto said:

who needs Theon to confirm she can trust Brienne (she was able to make a choice not to trust her on her own, but she is not capable of making a choice to trust her on her own?)

I don't think that that previous choice was entirely on her own. One thing that they are giving us pretty consistently is Show Sansa being rather dependant. LF was her previous babysitter, so she went along with his plans, and Theon, who now helped her escape and tried to sacrifice his own life (and more, knowing Ramsay) to her, is the current one, so she felt she needed his approval.

[messem]

5 hours ago, Tianzi said:

(On that matter: Myranda stated that Ramsay couldn't do to her anything more than these dogs. Ramsay rapes and flays people, for the start. We need to learn more about these dogs.)
 

Since nobody else bothered, I appreciate your humor.

[MrsStocksey]

I don't see how this is out of character or changing her story arc.

Up until the end of season 4 she was still the little girl who wanted to be a princess. By the end of season 4 she'd told one lie, dressed up a bit Emo but it was all for Littlefingers approval not a vast character shift.  She thought she understood the game but she was still very naive.  

In season 5 she trusted Littlefinger, as the only person up until that moment who had helped her, and let herself believe marrying Ramsey was a good plan.  She was stupid and naive, believing she was playing the game but not really understanding it.  But I've never saw her as weak during season 5, physically maybe but she was still fighting the whole time and saved Theon from his madness. 

She is now growing up and understanding the game better, this time with people around her who she can actually trust and who really want to help her.  The slight smile and look between her and Brienne at the end of the scene was beautiful, a promise of what's to come. 

Also I think the moment with her and Theon holding each other to keep warm is possibly the first meaningful human contact she's had since the first season, if you take out a hug from her crazy aunt and a couple of creepy kisses from Littlefinger!

 

[Mladen]

14 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

I don't think that that previous choice was entirely on her own. One thing that they are giving us pretty consistently is Show Sansa being rather dependant. LF was her previous babysitter, so she went along with his plans, and Theon, who now helped her escape and tried to sacrifice his own life (and more, knowing Ramsay) to her, is the current one, so she felt she needed his approval.

Sansa rejected Brienne because she saw her on the wedding and well, given that Brienne had more time to talk with Margaery about Renly than to console Sansa about her dead family. So, even though LF was there, Sansa decided on her own not to trust Brienne. As wrong as that was, it was her choice.

[Stangler]

2 hours ago, Risto said:

There is no logical way of arguing that writing for Sansa was consistent. Fist they make leap in the end of Season 4, then they make her rape victim last year, this year apparently that had no bearing and purpose. In one episode she is manipulative, in the next she needs 50 people around her. There is no consistency in bringing up to where she is supposed to be. Within the books, this character is smarter with each new chapter, slowly taking her from the daydreaming girl to young woman with agency. In the show, she seems to have agency, then lose it, then get it again, then lose it again... It seems so random that it may depend on astrology, for all the logic that it has.

 

She still had relatively minimal power/independence/agency in the Eyrie because she was under the power of LF. This shift where she was under the power of one evil man and then under the power of another selfish man is anything but random. It mirrors an all too familiar story of how people can bounce from one bad situation to another. The new situation can look great at first because it is not the old situation but things can change for the worse very fast.

It is not bad for her to get help. Getting help is not the issue. The issue is power. When LF saved her he had the power over her. When Theon helped her escape she had the power in the relationship and she has the power in the relationship with Brienne.

Her story is totally not random. It is somewhat predictable and structured actually. 

[Colonel Green]

3 hours ago, Stangler said:

She still had relatively minimal power/independence/agency in the Eyrie because she was under the power of LF.

In the books.  In the show they gave her the power, only to ignore it in Season 5.

[Wilnova]

8 hours ago, Risto said:

Sansa rejected Brienne because she saw her on the wedding and well, given that Brienne had more time to talk with Margaery about Renly than to console Sansa about her dead family. So, even though LF was there, Sansa decided on her own not to trust Brienne. As wrong as that was, it was her choice.

The problem with having agency is that people are allowed to make wrong choices. Why do you think characters like Dany and Jon get criticized? Because they make mistakes and their decisions and choices turn out to be wrong. You think Sansa is going to be perfectly awesome in the books and make the best choices if she ever decides to work independently of LF?

So far Sansa has not been much criticized for her mistakes in the books because she is either deemed as being too naive to know any better (Ned and Cat are blamed for her mistakes) or she is a helpless pawn who does not have enough agency or the power to make decisions or choose.  Once she does start having the ability to think on her own and make her own decisions, she is going to make as many mistakes as Jon, Dany and Arya and will get just as criticized as they were for their mistakes. We already see that some of Sansa's choices in the books are wrong ( Ordering and threatening the maester to continue to overdose SR with the Sweetsleep. I expect to see more of these as the books progress.

The show allowing Sansa to make mistakes is no big deal since she has been shown to be able to do her own thinking, ex: Talking to the Vale Lords.

[Mladen]

1 hour ago, Wilnova said:

The problem with having agency is that people are allowed to make wrong choices. Why do you think characters like Dany and Jon get criticized? Because they make mistakes and their decisions and choices turn out to be wrong. You think Sansa is going to be perfectly awesome in the books and make the best choices if she ever decides to work independently of LF?

So far Sansa has not been much criticized for her mistakes in the books because she is either deemed as being too naive to know any better (Ned and Cat are blamed for her mistakes) or she is a helpless pawn who does not have enough agency or the power to make decisions or choose.  Once she does start having the ability to think on her own and make her own decisions, she is going to make as many mistakes as Jon, Dany and Arya and will get just as criticized as they were for their mistakes. We already see that some of Sansa's choices in the books are wrong ( Ordering and threatening the maester to continue to overdose SR with the Sweetsleep. I expect to see more of these as the books progress.

The show allowing Sansa to make mistakes is no big deal since she has been shown to be able to do her own thinking, ex: Talking to the Vale Lords.

I do understand that agency means that people can make choices, good and bad. The problem I am having with the sort of agency Sansa has in TV is that it conveniently disappears at times. She makes two choices and then she is taken the agency and that is how we go in circles. There is no pattern. With Martin, said pattern has been established. TV shows makes dramatic changes and then doesn't live up to them. Martin moves Sansa step by step to the ultimate end-game, which I believe is a person with agency and enough power to make the choices of her own. I have no problem with her choosing wrongly wrt Brienne (I even understand where she came from), what I do have problem is inconsistency in writing. One episode she has all the agency in the world, the next she is stripped. At some point, producers have to decide what story they are actually telling, what character they have and stick to it.

[Clash]

23 minutes ago, Risto said:

I do understand that agency means that people can make choices, good and bad. The problem I am having with the sort of agency Sansa has in TV is that it conveniently disappears at times. She makes two choices and then she is taken the agency and that is how we go in circles. There is no pattern. With Martin, said pattern has been established. TV shows makes dramatic changes and then doesn't live up to them. Martin moves Sansa step by step to the ultimate end-game, which I believe is a person with agency and enough power to make the choices of her own. I have no problem with her choosing wrongly wrt Brienne (I even understand where she came from), what I do have problem is inconsistency in writing. One episode she has all the agency in the world, the next she is stripped. At some point, producers have to decide what story they are actually telling, what character they have and stick to it.

Having the freedom to make choices doesn't remain with you throughout. She agreed to marry Ramsay and rejected Brienne but the result of that choice was putting herself in the grip of someone more powerful and cruel than she thought. Almost all her freedom was taken from her when she made that choice. This happened to her in the books too. She was happy to be betrothed to Joffrey and go to KL with him where, as time went on, she became more and more of a prisoner and a plaything of Joffrey's.

Choices have consequences. I think what she has learned from this is that she must have the power in order to prevail. It has started with Brienne and continue to grow.

[Wilnova]

1 hour ago, Risto said:

I do understand that agency means that people can make choices, good and bad. The problem I am having with the sort of agency Sansa has in TV is that it conveniently disappears at times. She makes two choices and then she is taken the agency and that is how we go in circles. There is no pattern. With Martin, said pattern has been established. TV shows makes dramatic changes and then doesn't live up to them. Martin moves Sansa step by step to the ultimate end-game, which I believe is a person with agency and enough power to make the choices of her own. I have no problem with her choosing wrongly wrt Brienne (I even understand where she came from), what I do have problem is inconsistency in writing. One episode she has all the agency in the world, the next she is stripped. At some point, producers have to decide what story they are actually telling, what character they have and stick to it.

But is that not how real life works? Do you think everything works perfectly for people in a linearly incremental fashion? Sansa had agency - she made some choices - some of those choices she made were wrong ( being manipulated to do so by LF) - which led to her being trapped with Ramsay and stripped of that agency - she learned that she made the wrong choice and she then made the choice to get out of Winterfell - she escaped and with her new experience and knowledge accepts Brienne's service. I don't see what's wrong with this scenario.

To expect her to make the right choices all the time and keep moving up the ladder constantly does not make sense for GRRM's world either. Dany went from powerless 13 yr old to queen with dragons to possible prisoner of the Dothraki again. According to you, that would be inconsistency in writing because one episode Dany has all the agency in the world and in the next she is stripped.

[Mladen]

33 minutes ago, Wilnova said:

But is that not how real life works? Do you think everything works perfectly for people in a linearly incremental fashion? Sansa had agency - she made some choices - some of those choices she made were wrong ( being manipulated to do so by LF) - which led to her being trapped with Ramsay and stripped of that agency - she learned that she made the wrong choice and she then made the choice to get out of Winterfell - she escaped and with her new experience and knowledge accepts Brienne's service. I don't see what's wrong with this scenario.

To expect her to make the right choices all the time and keep moving up the ladder constantly does not make sense for GRRM's world either. Dany went from powerless 13 yr old to queen with dragons to possible prisoner of the Dothraki again. According to you, that would be inconsistency in writing because one episode Dany has all the agency in the world and in the next she is stripped.

I am not discussing how life works, I am discussing the cohesiveness of someone's writing. It seems that we are arguing two completely different things. I haven't said that just because Sansa has the agency, the bad things would stop or that she will stop making bad choices. I am questioning the existence of agency in certain points. I am talking about a character who was willing to die, to be killed by Myranda. I am talking about the character whose supposed agency came from rape (which is whole another misogynist Pandora's box I will not open) was nowhere in the final moments of the last season when she was ready to die. She literally said that. The character we have in the books, the less mature, the younger version of Sansa, never gave up on life. She never said "If I am going to die..." Sansa's agency, power and choices became dependent on someone else's choice. When she decided to reject Brienne, she did it not because of LF or what he said, but of what she saw on Joffrey's wedding. Here, she needed nod from Theon to make a conclusion that supposedly she is capable of making on her own.

So, once again, my problem with character is not making a right or wrong choice, it is ability to make HER choices based on what she knows, what she saw and on whom she can trust. 

1 hour ago, Clash said:

Choices have consequences. I think what she has learned from this is that she must have the power in order to prevail. It has started with Brienne and continue to grow.

And no one is objecting to that. What I am objecting is that the character seen in show has any consistency in terms of the agency, as she moves backward and forward with it. One moment she is capable of making choices (regardless of whether it is right or wrong), the next she can't. Once and for all, I wish producers make up their mind.

[Clash]

22 minutes ago, Risto said:

I am questioning the existence of agency in certain points. I am talking about a character who was willing to die, to be killed by Myranda. I am talking about the character whose supposed agency came from rape (which is whole another misogynist Pandora's box I will not open) was nowhere in the final moments of the last season when she was ready to die. She literally said that.

It's a while since I saw that scene, but was she not calling Myranda's bluff? And at the same time trying to force Theon to commit? She had been working on him for some time after all, she clearly wasn't ready to give up. She lit the candle and went to leave. Either Myranda was going to back down or Theon was going to come to her aid. It was a gamble, but so was jumping from the castle wall.