Osha a self-sacrifice as part of the GNC?

[TickTak7]

I don't see any obvious reason as to why the Umbers would deliver Rickon to Ramsey, unless they were intending to work with the Boltons. 

If The Umbers are loyal enough to the Starks that they would be willing to go undercover with the Boltons, waiting for the chance to turn on them, then surely that plan wouldn't involve sacrificing Rickon. 

And it is absolutely sacrificing Rickon - at this point, most of the North knows Ramsey is a very dangerous man. 

Unfortunately at this stage, I think we are meant to accept that the Umbers are actually working with the Boltons and there's no conspiracy. 

Especially given that we didn't see the Smalljon in episode 4. Surely, if there was some Trojan Horse at play, then we'd get to see the Smalljon again?

[mbuehner]

I wont rule out the possibility that the GNC is real and ALSO that handing over Rickon is a ridiculous plot contrivance.

We're all working under the assumption that any of this will ultimately not be stupid.

[kissdbyfire]

5 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

In which case, if the plan was that a lone wildling woman was going to ever be able to kill Ramsay, who just killed his entire family....and that despite Ramsay having no way in hell to verify if they're giving him the real Rickon or a fake Rickon since they killed the direwolf...LOL...that makes them incredibly stupid.

Now, since a lot people in the show are stupid and do really stupid things, it's not out of the realm of possibility that the Show Umbers will betray the Boltons, but it's pretty stupid even for the show, which already established that Ramsay has no idea if it's really Rickon or not, so why not then give him a fake...or again, why give him Rickon at all? And they are again giving a hugely valuable hostage to someone and getting nothing in return for it except some promises.

How does waiting around mean the end of the Starks?  If you are the Umbers and you know the Boltons need you...why not wait them out, or backstab them and then you can later yourself take control of the North because you've got the Stark.  Without the Stark they have nothing, Ramsay could easily betray them, why not?  They already gave up their leverage.

 

Yes to all, x 100. And as has been stated a number of times by many, if the Umbers are planning to turn on Ramsay then it`s even stupider, it`s just way too stupid even for GoT. 

There's going to be an awful lot of people sorely disappointed once it all plays out. 

[Cas Stark]

Also, not that it matters.

But Ramsay flayed some nobles for trash talking him on taxes and flayed the old woman for conspiring to help Sansa.

Yet, the wildling woman who tries to stab him...he gives her a clean, quick death.

Alrighty then.  Not that I wanted to see Natalia tortured and raped...but if this was the plan...bring her back for maybe 2 minutes to recreate the Theon scene and then kill her and they couldn't come up with anything more creative or worthwhile...why bother bringing her back at all?

[mbuehner]

5 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Also, not that it matters.

But Ramsay flayed some nobles for trash talking him on taxes and flayed the old woman for conspiring to help Sansa.

Yet, the wildling woman who tries to stab him...he gives her a clean, quick death.

Alrighty then.  Not that I wanted to see Natalia tortured and raped...but if this was the plan...bring her back for maybe 2 minutes to recreate the Theon scene and then kill her and they couldn't come up with anything more creative or worthwhile...why bother bringing her back at all?

I'd guess to keep people from pestering them about what happened the Osha for the next 30 years.

[Cas Stark]

Just now, mbuehner said:

I'd guess to keep people from pestering them about what happened the Osha for the next 30 years.

They could have fixed that with a half of a line of dialogue  Smalljon "We already killed the wilding woman who was with him" The end.

[coondog72]

First time poster, Is it possible that the show runners are pulling a fast one on us. Maybe having the actor who has played rickon in the past (forget the kids name) play an "unnamed peasant boy" to fool Bolton. It's a fake wolf, fake kid and We don't know it. GreatJon comes riding up with Rickon and Shaggydog.  

There has to be SOME GNC in the books (Manderlays) and "The North Remebers" is a major theme, I have a hard time seeing them not demonstrate that now. Unless, "times are changing"

[mbuehner]

1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

They could have fixed that with a half of a line of dialogue  Smalljon "We already killed the wilding woman who was with him" The end.

You honestly think that would have satisfied the fans? 'What REALLY happened to Osha?'

[kissdbyfire]

6 minutes ago, mbuehner said:

I'd guess to keep people from pestering them about what happened the Osha for the next 30 years.

Drop her head on the table with Shaggy's. 

[mbuehner]

Just now, kissdbyfire said:

Drop her head on the table with Shaggy's. 

Fine by me- but all the same people would be complaining about that too. If you torture here to death people are mad, if you dont torture her to death people are mad, if you kill her off screen people are mad, if you kill her on screen people are mad. I'm not sure i get what the point is.

[coondog72]

7 minutes ago, mbuehner said:

You honestly think that would have satisfied the fans? 'What REALLY happened to Osha?'

 

[Desert Fox]

17 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

In which case, if the plan was that a lone wildling woman was going to ever be able to kill Ramsay, who just killed his entire family....and that despite Ramsay having no way in hell to verify if they're giving him the real Rickon or a fake Rickon since they killed the direwolf...LOL...that makes them incredibly stupid.

I don't think Osha was the main plan, but sort of a hail mary that went along side it. I also don't think a fake Rickon would be a good plan because there may be people around who know what Rickon looks like. Who knows what sort of smallfolk Ramsay has on staff. They also might not know that Reek left. Reek would definitely know.

I do agree that it's a reckless plan, if it's a plan.

22 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

How does waiting around mean the end of the Starks?  If you are the Umbers and you know the Boltons need you...why not wait them out, or backstab them and then you can later yourself take control of the North because you've got the Stark.  Without the Stark they have nothing, Ramsay could easily betray them, why not?  They already gave up their leverage.

Because the passing of time breeds complacency and creates a sense of a new normal. Over time, the Boltons will get the North in line and it'll be the end of the Starks North.

I think you are right that if you were the Umbers just looking to cash in on having the Stark heir, you'd wait around and keep Rickon hostage to ensure Bolton cooperation forever. But that's reason against Umbers giving him up just for helping with Wildings. Ramsay agress to help with that even before they mention Rickon.

I'm far from 100% sure. And of course, I could just be reading too much into just a really dumb plot choice by the show.

[kissdbyfire]

4 minutes ago, coondog72 said:

First time poster, Is it possible that the show runners are pulling a fast one on us. Maybe having the actor who has played rickon in the past (forget the kids name) play an "unnamed peasant boy" to fool Bolton. It's a fake wolf, fake kid and We don't know it. GreatJon comes riding up with Rickon and Shaggydog.  

There has to be SOME GNC in the books (Manderlays) and "The North Remebers" is a major theme, I have a hard time seeing them not demonstrate that now. Unless, "times are changing"

Welcome.

I don't believe the Umbers will betray Ramsay, and no, I really really don't believe Art Parkinson is playing a Rickon doppelgänger, 

[Nymeria's pack]

On 16/05/2016 at 4:41 PM, GeorgeIAF said:

Ramsay will die being mauled to death by Shaggydog (set upon him by a wild Rickon), an ironic and fitting end for him, given that being eaten alive by dogs is his prefered choice of killing someone.

I was hoping for a Weese style death, where his own dogs turn on him ( through being warged perhaps).  But if Shaggy is alive (please, please, please) this would do nicely. 

I think I've spent a little too much time thinking how I'd like to see Ramsay die 

[kissdbyfire]

5 minutes ago, mbuehner said:

Fine by me- but all the same people would be complaining about that too. If you torture here to death people are mad, if you dont torture her to death people are mad, if you kill her off screen people are mad, if you kill her on screen people are mad. I'm not sure i get what the point is.

I'm not at all mad that she wasn't tortured and raped, on the contrary. I do however think it was a waste to bring Tena back just to play a repeat of a previous scene and nothing more. And Osha being killed off screen is fine, I can buy that, it's believable. But I'd like to know how they got away with killing a wild direwolf. 

[Cas Stark]

7 minutes ago, mbuehner said:

Fine by me- but all the same people would be complaining about that too. If you torture here to death people are mad, if you dont torture her to death people are mad, if you kill her off screen people are mad, if you kill her on screen people are mad. I'm not sure i get what the point is.

Maybe don't kill her, LOL.  Or, at best, if you are going to kill her, give her some screen time and a better manner of death.

Osha is the least of the problems with the show.  But she was a popular character and a well known actress...on that alone it suggests that bringing her back for 2 minutes was not the best decision.

But then, I then having Rickon and Osha delivered to the Boltons by the Umbers is, in itself, a really really stupid decision...and that's what created the situation. 

One stupid thing begets another.

If Osha hadn't been reintroduced as a captive then, there isn't the problem of how to kill her with the least audience antagonism.  These are all bad show decisions that cause these no win situations where whatever is the outcome, it's stupid.  So, it will be stupid if the Boltons betrayed the Starks and stupid if they don't...because the Boltons actions are not sensible no matter where their loyalties lie..and this again is the show creating these dumb conundrums.

[mbuehner]

1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

Maybe don't kill her, LOL.  Or, at best, if you are going to kill her, give her some screen time and a better manner of death.

Osha is the least of the problems with the show.  But she was a popular character and a well known actress...on that alone it suggests that bringing her back for 2 minutes was not the best decision.

But then, I then having Rickon and Osha delivered to the Boltons by the Umbers is, in itself, a really really stupid decision...and that's what created the situation. 

One stupid thing begets another.

If Osha hadn't been reintroduced as a captive then, there isn't the problem of how to kill her with the least audience antagonism.  These are all bad show decisions that cause these no win situations where whatever is the outcome, it's stupid.  So, it will be stupid if the Boltons betrayed the Starks and stupid if they don't...because the Boltons actions are not sensible no matter where their loyalties lie..and this again is the show creating these dumb conundrums.

This sounds about right to me too.

[Jack Bauer 24]

31 minutes ago, coondog72 said:

First time poster, Is it possible that the show runners are pulling a fast one on us. Maybe having the actor who has played rickon in the past (forget the kids name) play an "unnamed peasant boy" to fool Bolton. It's a fake wolf, fake kid and We don't know it. GreatJon comes riding up with Rickon and Shaggydog.  

There has to be SOME GNC in the books (Manderlays) and "The North Remebers" is a major theme, I have a hard time seeing them not demonstrate that now. Unless, "times are changing"

That's absurd. So Art is playing fRickon? Ok.

[Locksley]

21 hours ago, Jack Bauer 24 said:

That was Art Parkinson. That was obviously Rickon. What don't you understand about that?

10 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

How can anyone think that was not Rickon, since it's Art Parkinson, the actor who played Rickon before? No, it's Rickon, there's no hidden meaning in anything the Smalljon said, and he won't turn on Ramsay. The Boltons will have the (much) larger army, Jon & co will come very close to being defeated until LF swoops in, LotR style to save the day. And I have zero doubts Rickon will die at some point somehow. 

So good job just completely glancing over the first sentence I wrote which is saying I don't think there is any GNC in the show. Also, being rude for no apparent reason except to make yourself feel intellectually superior is a dick move. This community is worse than the LoL community.

So let me reiterate: I think that we are getting everything at face value, which means that I do not think there is any GNC in the show. Which means I think that is Rickon. Now making an observation that he does not look wild enough or that that was not a direwolf head was me playing devil's advocate to my own opinion. 

Try reading a whole post before you go off the handle on your "But it was the same actor so you're a dumbass" crusade.

[TickTak7]

4 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Maybe don't kill her, LOL.  Or, at best, if you are going to kill her, give her some screen time and a better manner of death.

Osha is the least of the problems with the show.  But she was a popular character and a well known actress...on that alone it suggests that bringing her back for 2 minutes was not the best decision.

But then, I then having Rickon and Osha delivered to the Boltons by the Umbers is, in itself, a really really stupid decision...and that's what created the situation. 

One stupid thing begets another.

If Osha hadn't been reintroduced as a captive then, there isn't the problem of how to kill her with the least audience antagonism.  These are all bad show decisions that cause these no win situations where whatever is the outcome, it's stupid.  So, it will be stupid if the Boltons betrayed the Starks and stupid if they don't...because the Boltons actions are not sensible no matter where their loyalties lie..and this again is the show creating these dumb conundrums.

Bringing her back was nothing more than a chance for the showrunners to have a "REMINDER THAT RAMSEY IS REALLLLLLLLY BAD" moment. 

It shouldn't surprise anyone. They did the save thing with Joffrey - that scene when he had the prostitute, Ros, tied to the bed post and filled with crossbow arrows. Totally unnecessary, involving a character we all forgot, that served as nothing more than a reminder that "JOFFREY IS REALLLLY BAD". 

We didn't need either scene, but it's not really surprising as they've done it before.