Osha a self-sacrifice as part of the GNC?

[kissdbyfire]

8 minutes ago, Locksley said:

So good job just completely glancing over the first sentence I wrote which is saying I don't think there is any GNC in the show. Also, being rude for no apparent reason except to make yourself feel intellectually superior is a dick move. This community is worse than the LoL community.

So let me reiterate: I think that we are getting everything at face value, which means that I do not think there is any GNC in the show. Which means I think that is Rickon. Now making an observation that he does not look wild enough or that that was not a direwolf head was me playing devil's advocate to my own opinion. 

Try reading a whole post before you go off the handle on your "But it was the same actor so you're a dumbass" crusade.

I am sorry, but there seems to be a little misunderstanding here. I did not call you names; I replied to what you said, here:

21 hours ago, Locksley said:

I'm pretty sure D&D are just giving us everything at face value. So likely no GNC in the show.

If there is some sort of GNC in the show then I imagine the kid they gave to Ramsey is not actually Rickon Stark. I mean, the kid certainly didn't seem wild enough and that "direwolf head" looked pretty small. 

Everything bolded suggests that you think maybe there's no GNC and that you imagine the kid is not Rickon. So, as I said above, I was replying to these points you made previously. And again, I didn't call you names or anything, relax. 

 

[jandslegate]

I can accept that the Umbers have truly turned on the Starks in the show. I just wish it would have been a different house. Like, it easily could have been any other Northern house to throw in with Ramsay. I don't know, I just really liked The Greatjon. That being said, turncloak or not Smalljon's actor was really good, in my opinion. 

[tmug]

19 hours ago, Yin & Yang said:

I'm almost 100% sure the Umbers are double-crossing Ramsey. I refuse to believe that the scene where SmallJon refuses to pledge fealty to the Boltons is a coincidence. SmallJon didn't kneel or pledge fealty because he is still loyal to the Starks.

SJU said exactly why he didn't kneel to Ramsay. Boltons knelt to the Starks, how did that end up? What would kneeling to a Bolton really mean anyways? They are a House that obviously holds no regard to fealty and whatnot. If you were Ramsay, would you rather SJU kneel and then ride off into the sunset thinking he is loyal? OR would you rather have Rickon Stark and his Direwolf's head as proof. There is no GNC at least with the Umbers.

12 hours ago, Juggzy said:

It makes no narrative sense for the Umbers suddenly to betray the Starks,  None.  Their loyalty has been foreshadowed, as has the GNC ('The North remembers').  Remember that Ramsay kills Osha because of what Theon told him.  When SmallJon handed Osha and Rickon over, he would not have known what Theon told Ramsay. I think the killing of Osha was not expected - she was sent there as an assassin. 

Assasin? This is ridiculous notion because how would the Umbers, Osha or Rickon even know she would be able to get that close to Ramsay? SJU hands Osha and Rickon over and Ramsay either kills them on the spot, tortures and kills them later, or they get locked in a dungeon never to see the light of day. How does that even work out as a great plan by the GNC to hand of Real Rickon? Send Osha, FRickon and FShaggydog's head and if plan goes sour you only lose Osha. Stop with the ridiculous theories

[direwoofwoof]

Osha had a lot of spirit. Was hoping she might at least wound Ramsey before he killed her. Quite an anticlimactic ending for someone who protected the youngest Stark.

[Facebookless Man]

6 hours ago, mbuehner said:

I wont rule out the possibility that the GNC is real and ALSO that handing over Rickon is a ridiculous plot contrivance.

We're all working under the assumption that any of this will ultimately not be stupid.

Seriously, reading all this stuff about what does and does not make sense and why would X do Y makes me wonder if anyone's been paying attention.

[The Dragon has three heads]

Pointless scene, pointless waste of a descent actress who could have filled in wtf they did for 4 years anyway, show as per killing it.

[Jack Bauer 24]

1 hour ago, The Dragon has three heads said:

Pointless scene, pointless waste of a descent actress who could have filled in wtf they did for 4 years anyway, show as per killing it.

What?

[Yin & Yang]

4 hours ago, tmug said:

SJU said exactly why he didn't kneel to Ramsay. Boltons knelt to the Starks, how did that end up? What would kneeling to a Bolton really mean anyways? They are a House that obviously holds no regard to fealty and whatnot. If you were Ramsay, would you rather SJU kneel and then ride off into the sunset thinking he is loyal? OR would you rather have Rickon Stark and his Direwolf's head as proof. There is no GNC at least with the Umbers.

I have to disagree. SmallJon came in knowing exactly what Ramsey is like (i.e. knowing he killed his father). He knew how to manipulate the situation by not pledging fealty while still getting Ramsey to trust him somewhat. The situation might make no sense, but I think that's more just poor storytelling and plot holes from D&D. Perhaps Rickon being a 'wild child' is a risk taker. Perhaps he commanded SmallJon to undertake this risky operation against his good judgement. Who knows?

One thing we do know is that the books and show constantly go on about Northern honour and how the north never forgets. The northern houses see House Stark as their liege lords / kings. House Umber were the first to declare Robb king in the north. House Mormont say that they "know no king but the king in the north, whose name is Stark". 

It makes zero sense for the Umbers to now turn around and stab the Starks in the back simply because some wildlings were let south of the wall. What do they have to gain by being turn cloaks? Some more land and titles? Maybe, maybe not. 

I'll tell you what does make sense though. The Umbers lost good men at the Red Wedding and the North remembers.

[The Dragon has three heads]

3 hours ago, Jack Bauer 24 said:

What?

Just another pointless stabbing scene? That didn't fill in any back story or what had happened to her character or Rickon? 

[Jack Bauer 24]

9 minutes ago, The Dragon has three heads said:

Just another pointless stabbing scene? That didn't fill in any back story or what had happened to her character or Rickon? 

We will get that dialogue through Rickon. You do realize we will have scenes with Ramsay/Rickon, right?

[Hol Horse]

6 hours ago, direwoofwoof said:

Osha had a lot of spirit. Was hoping she might at least wound Ramsey before he killed her. Quite an anticlimactic ending for someone who protected the youngest Stark.

Psssshhh - what? The man mind-fudged Theon, took on a veteran group of Ironborn while shirtless, trained a spec ops group - the same one that sabotaged Stannis' camp - with little effort, and successfully overthrew his father - the Loose Roose - without resistance. Osha's good, but she's not that good. RamRam's on a whole 'nother level. That's why no one's been a challenge to him, nor will they, until Jon SnuSnu. Although, I'd be willing to be that, were he still alive, the Fokin' Legend from Gin Alley could take him down (or at least give 'im a good fight).

 

[The Dragon has three heads]

38 minutes ago, Jack Bauer 24 said:

We will get that dialogue through Rickon. You do realize we will have scenes with Ramsay/Rickon, right?

...you saw what they did to Dorne, right?

You have to admit that her clumsy seduction and exceedingly obvious look at the dagger telegraphed what was happening from 3kms away?

im not bashing the show for the sake of it, they're capable of better.  This is not one of their finest moments.

[kissdbyfire]

6 hours ago, Yin & Yang said:

I have to disagree. SmallJon came in knowing exactly what Ramsey is like (i.e. knowing he killed his father). He knew how to manipulate the situation by not pledging fealty while still getting Ramsey to trust him somewhat. The situation might make no sense, but I think that's more just poor storytelling and plot holes from D&D. Perhaps Rickon being a 'wild child' is a risk taker. Perhaps he commanded SmallJon to undertake this risky operation against his good judgement. Who knows?

One thing we do know is that the books and show constantly go on about Northern honour and how the north never forgets. The northern houses see House Stark as their liege lords / kings. House Umber were the first to declare Robb king in the north. House Mormont say that they "know no king but the king in the north, whose name is Stark". 

It makes zero sense for the Umbers to now turn around and stab the Starks in the back simply because some wildlings were let south of the wall. What do they have to gain by being turn cloaks? Some more land and titles? Maybe, maybe not. 

I'll tell you what does make sense though. The Umbers lost good men at the Red Wedding and the North remembers.

That didn't happen. The Greatjon wasn't there, and apparently no Umbers died at the RW. There was, allegedly, a red shirt northerner with a merman pin (Wendel Manderly). It's another problem the show runners created and ignored later on. Clive Mantle, who played the Greatjon in s 1, had some scheduling conflict when they wanted him for s 2, and was never asked to return after that. They should have recast him, after all, it's not like the show runners are averse to recasting roles. But they didn't. And because they don't plan ahead, they decided to have Rickon and Osha and Shaggy go to the Last Hearth, even if at that point it was already clear that the Greatjon wouldn't return - either with Mantle or another actor. And now we have this new mess, "the Umbers are so loyal, the Smalljon is obviously going to turn on Ramsay". And all of it could have been avoided if they'd sent Rickon somewhere else, like to the seat of house "Mazin", and have them betray the Starks. Maybe it's not even poor planning, maybe it's deliberate to create this type of confusion and speculation. Because that's their brand of "storytelling". They come up with scenes that don't make sense and are confusing and illogical, and hope that these scenes will pass for good suspenseful and intriguing mysteries.  

[Juggzy]

14 hours ago, tmug said:

Stop with the ridiculous theories

Wow.  Just wow. 

[tmug]

12 hours ago, Juggzy said:

Wow.  Just wow. 

Yeah, wow. I just have a hard time believing that the great GNC's master plan was to infiltrate Winterfell by handing over Osha and Rickon in chains to a psychopath who just killed the previous Lord of Winterfell. All because of the fact that dude didn't kneel to Ramsay or kiss his hand. Why should he kneel after all that has transpired? Karstark knelt, he got beheaded. Roose knelt, he stabbed Robb in the heart. The title of the episode was "Oathbreaker" for a few reasons. SJU didn't kneel because who gives a shit anymore, especially in the North?

Let's not forget, Rickon is the true heir to Winterfell. Not Ramsay or even if he had a son with Lady Sansa. Rickon Friggin Stark, Lord of Winterfell. Well, until Rickon gets poisoned by his enemies. Rickon Stark is no good for the Boltons if he stays alive, even Roose knew that.

 

15 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

That didn't happen. The Greatjon wasn't there, and apparently no Umbers died at the RW. There was, allegedly, a red shirt northerner with a merman pin (Wendel Manderly). It's another problem the show runners created and ignored later on. Clive Mantle, who played the Greatjon in s 1, had some scheduling conflict when they wanted him for s 2, and was never asked to return after that. They should have recast him, after all, it's not like the show runners are averse to recasting roles. But they didn't. And because they don't plan ahead, they decided to have Rickon and Osha and Shaggy go to the Last Hearth, even if at that point it was already clear that the Greatjon wouldn't return - either with Mantle or another actor. And now we have this new mess, "the Umbers are so loyal, the Smalljon is obviously going to turn on Ramsay". And all of it could have been avoided if they'd sent Rickon somewhere else, like to the seat of house "Mazin", and have them betray the Starks. Maybe it's not even poor planning, maybe it's deliberate to create this type of confusion and speculation. Because that's their brand of "storytelling". They come up with scenes that don't make sense and are confusing and illogical, and hope that these scenes will pass for good suspenseful and intriguing mysteries.  

I could buy this reasoning more so than the GNC/Umber theories. It could be just sloppy, poor writing and planning by D&D. They have been really going over the top in order to further demonize Ramsay to draw a ridiculously clear line that dude is crazy evil, beyond whatever Joffery was. He's a rapist, a kinslayer, a baby killer and soon he will be a Stark killer. Rickon's death will send the audience bat-shit crazy and it will just suck everyone in for BastardBowl '16, which is exactly what D&D want. 

[Jack Bauer 24]

23 hours ago, The Dragon has three heads said:

...you saw what they did to Dorne, right?

You have to admit that her clumsy seduction and exceedingly obvious look at the dagger telegraphed what was happening from 3kms away?

im not bashing the show for the sake of it, they're capable of better.  This is not one of their finest moments.

Yes I saw what they did and I liked it. It's another example of a long list of scenes this season showing strong powerful women with agency.

[Ice The Sword]

The absence of White Harbor and the Manderlys is such a shame. Wyman Manderly is one of my favorite characters in the books. I think its more likely that Rickon and Osha were brought to the Boltons for the reasons the show told us they were. But like in the book, there is a dispute amongst the Umbers and they have split. Smalljon just shows up and says the Greatjon has died. I hope they wouldnt and dont believe they have just killed off the Greatjon like that. I think its more likely that his son is power hungry and has seen someone like Ramsay take over all of the north while his father has chilled in The Last Hearth and decided to make a move. I just hope they didnt kill him off screen because hes such an awesome character and that would be a shame.

Also people, its RamsAy not RamsEy. I know that was annoying to say but....its true so fix yoself.

[Jack Bauer 24]

6 minutes ago, Ice The Sword said:

The absence of White Harbor and the Manderlys is such a shame. Wyman Manderly is one of my favorite characters in the books. I think its more likely that Rickon and Osha were brought to the Boltons for the reasons the show told us they were. But like in the book, there is a dispute amongst the Umbers and they have split. Smalljon just shows up and says the Greatjon has died. I hope they wouldnt and dont believe they have just killed off the Greatjon like that. I think its more likely that his son is power hungry and has seen someone like Ramsay take over all of the north while his father has chilled in The Last Hearth and decided to make a move. I just hope they didnt kill him off screen because hes such an awesome character and that would be a shame.

Also people, its RamsAy not RamsEy. I know that was annoying to say but....its true so fix yoself.

Greatjon actor was a douche by all accounts and had scheduling issues on top of that. Instead of recasting they just killed him off screen and cast smalljon.

[Ice The Sword]

Just now, Jack Bauer 24 said:

Greatjon actor was a douche by all accounts and had scheduling issues on top of that. Instead of recasting they just killed him off screen and cast smalljon.

Ahh damn, didnt know that. That sucks I love Greatjon in the books. Fingers crossed Jon and Sansa go to White Harbor looking for help and Lord Too Fat To Sit A Horse is there with a couple of pies. Or maybe Davos goes instead?? There was a casting for a "fat lord in his 60's" so my wishes may be answered. I think Im on to something here.

Jon and Sansa know they need support after hearing about the Umbers backing of Ramsay. Sansa says something about how loyal the Manderlys are bc the Starks saved their house a back in the day. Davos goes to treat with Wyman for Jon...

A man can hope!

[Ice The Sword]

On 5/17/2016 at 1:08 PM, Desert Fox said:

I tend to believe it's part of a ruse, but not a grand conspiracy. Reasons why:

• the timing is suspicious. Smalljon just happens to join team Bolton when Ramsay goes full retard and kills his father? When Ramsay is hated by all? When Ramsay lost Sansa? They've had Rickon for years. I think the Umbers and Rickon are making their move when Ramsay is at his weakest. If Ramsay has several years to get the other houses in line, then Rickon is screwed. If Ramsay takes Castle Black to go find Sansa, Rickon is screwed.
• there are plenty of easier ways for the show to get Rickon captured than for the most loyal of stark bannermen to turncoat. If the show just needed a reason for Jon to attack Winterfell, Ramsay could have captured him in a bunch of different ways. Why bother to make the Umbers traitors?
• in the books there is an element of Umber trickery. Umbers under Hother pretty clearly mean to betray the Boltons. They may even be the key to breaching Winterfell (by opening the gates or letting the attackers climb up unmolested). I could the show modifying this into the current storyline.
• why give over Rickon period? Even if you hate the Stark, having the rightful Lord of Winterfell as a hostage would provide safety from Ramsay's wrath forever. Hand him over, Ramsay carves him up, and then he's free to betray you later. This is a man who killed his own father. How could you trust him?
• refusing to bend the knee and swear to Ramsay is a huge sign that something isn't up. People who don't care about vows, would take that oath without a second thought.

So why be so stupid to turn over the Prince in the North to the Starks biggest enemy and a huge psycho? That is a tougher question. You gain trust and access. Osha tried killing Ramsay. Maybe that was the plan. Maybe the plan is for Umbers to march with the Boltons to war against Jon, and then turn on them suddenly causing a rout.  Is it risky? Sure, but waiting around means the end of the Starks. Ramsay will only grow stronger. It might be a ploy to get the North off it's ass. Fighting to crown a boy is a hard sell, but rescuing the prince from a mad man isn't. 

And Ramsay has to be a little careful with Rickon. If he kills him in cold blood, the north may rise up against him.

The obvious counter argument is that it's a huge fucking risk. Which it is. But Umber and Rickon might be willing to roll the dice. It's a wild plan, but Smalljon and Rickon are wild men.

Why I think it isn't a grand conspiracy? The Northern houses don't seem to be able to do shit without a Stark running things. If they had many houses coordinating, they wouldn't have done such a risky plan.

I like this, you bring up some really good points. The Umber trickery especially. What if Greatjon isnt dead and this is just a way to get some Umbers into WF? Or maybe he is dead and Smalljon has wanted to take action but couldnt until his father passed. Also, the fact he wouldnt kneel really stuck out to me. The North loves their vows and I really think that meant something when he wouldnt bend the knee. 

Can we just cut the Lannisters out of this show and stay in the north the whole time please?