Joramun, Gendel and Gorne (and the caves in the North) [Spoilers]

[Falcon2908]

On 5/19/2016 at 9:37 PM, Macgregor of the North said:

I'll put comments in a spoiler thingy so as not to break any spoiler rules or anything.

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There is interesting stuff which could possibly relate to these tunnels being part of a bigger and further reaching network in the newer of the two Arriane chapters from Winds. I'll say no more because I don't want to be spoilery to anybody who's not read the chapter yet.

 

The Black Pool and white fish, IMO, connect the underground sea in Bran's cave

[House Cambodia]

Whilst concerning the Arianne II chapter it would seem a bit of a cop-out to me if it turns out those tunnels are simply a short-cut for JonCon to take Storm's End, I am warming to the possibility that the Children have a vast underground network beneath Westeros from north of the wall all the way to the south, thus explaining their fate from before the Long Night, although I still think it would be a bit lame given the paucity of hints we've been given through 5 volumes.

[chrisdaw]

Caves will have magic portals, 'doors' requiring magic words to take the user where they want to go, the 'nature type' language of the COTF. Bran's cave has no portal or the undead can't use them.

[Seams]

For a little context from Celtic legend, here are some things about the Underworld or Otherworld that I included in a middle school lesson about Gaiman's The Graveyard Book:

Legends described different locations for the Otherworld: islands in the west, beneath the ocean, through a cave, or under mounds.  In ancient Ireland, each of a series of mounds was ruled by a different god, each with its own Otherworld.  Some in ancient Briton said that Glastonbury Tor was the entrance as well as the palace of Gwyn ap Nudd, the main god of the Otherworld.  Some said the Otherworld existed alongside the world of humans, but it was invisible to the living. The rulers of the Otherworld sometimes invited mortals to enter their lands to provide aid against an enemy or in some other struggle.  Miranda  Green writes, “The idea may be that a red-blooded hero is required to fight effectively in the land of ghosts.”  If a mortal entered the Otherworld without permission, however, problems could result. 

If GRRM is trying to reflect the modern understanding of the ancient Otherworld setting, he may be deliberately ambiguous about whether there is one connected network of caves or a series of separate caves. The Gendel and Gorne story tells us that there is a continuous cave that allows passage under the Wall; other stories or direct experience tends to support a different interpretation. Luckily, fiction allows all interpretations to be correct. 

It's possible that everything north of the Wall (or north of Winterfell?) represents the Otherworld, with the caves just offering important, specialized nodes for Otherworld magic or transformation. That could explain why much of Bran, Hodor, Meera and Jojen's journey was above ground - they were in the Otherworld whether they were above or below ground.

I like the underground river idea, though, with the flow in one direction. I want to know more about the hot springs under Winterfell and this could help to explain them.

[Dorian Martell]

20 hours ago, Victarion Chainbreaker said:

The connection is an underground river flowing from north to south. That's why Gendel and Gorne could only go 1 way. That's how Bloodraven sent Gared and the pregnant direwolf from far beyond the Wall to within a day's ride of Winterfell. That's how Bran may eventually return to Winterfell. The underground river is mentioned in BR's cave, and also when Bran goes through the Black Gate.

There was no mention of a river in the story of Gorne and Gendel. Nor was there any mention of boats or rafts in the story. Only caves and them getting lost. there may have been a cave under the wall and there probably still is, but Leaf does not mention a passage, so at this point, there is no underground cave network all over westeros

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

55 minutes ago, Dorian Martell said:

There was no mention of a river in the story of Gorne and Gendel. Nor was there any mention of boats or rafts in the story. Only caves and them getting lost. there may have been a cave under the wall and there probably still is, but Leaf does not mention a passage, so at this point, there is no underground cave network all over westeros

We do have this quote from a certain greenseer:

Quote

"How did you get through the Wall?" Jojen demanded as Sam struggled to his feet. "Does the well lead to an underground river, is that where you came from? You're not even wet . . ."

Jojen was so certain of the underground river that he fully expected Sam to be wet.

 

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

27 minutes ago, Victarion Chainbreaker said:

We do have this quote from a certain greenseer:

Jojen was so certain of the underground river that he fully expected Sam to be wet.

 

WELL FUCK.

[House Cambodia]

There's also a tantalizing hint in the Arianne II except of TWOW. Could be spoilery, so I invite you to find the specific thread if you so desire.

 

 

edit: beaten to it by mcgregor, it seems

[Macgregor of the North]

ADWD BRAN III:

"The caves were timeless, vast, silent. They were home to more than three score living singers and the bones of thousands dead, and extended far below the hollow hill. "Men should not go wandering in this place," Leaf warned them. "The river you hear is swift and black, and flows down and down to a sunless sea. And there are passages that go even deeper, bottomless pits and sudden shafts, forgotten ways that lead to the very center of the earth. Even my people have not explored them all, and we have lived here for a thousand thousand of your man-years."

 

I think that if there are forgotten ways that lead to the very centre of the earth it's quite plausible that there are underground passages that lead south of the wall. 

Spoiler

And if we think of it from that angle then it is easily possible there is a cave network of passages that lead from the old CoTf stronghold in the stormlands from Arriane II, up to the cave beyond the wall and possibly other areas south of the Wall. Not made by the children, but already there.

 

 

[Macgregor of the North]

On 22 May 2016 at 6:16 AM, Curled Finger said:

The caves at Hardhome emit this horrible screeching.   If they are connected to this network why couldn't it be possible that wyverns are lounging about down there all over the place?  I just can't imagine what sort of creature that no one ever sees but clearly hears could be.  I imagine ice spider would make more of a clicking sound than screeching.  

Interesting about the Wyverns. Hasnt GRRM said we will see Wyverns in the story? In the quote I posted Leaf says there are passages that lead down to the very centre of the earth, maybe it's the Wyverns who made the passages coming out from the centre of the earth thousands of years ago?

[Dorian Martell]

7 hours ago, Victarion Chainbreaker said:

We do have this quote from a certain greenseer:

Jojen was so certain of the underground river that he fully expected Sam to be wet.

 

Yet Sam was dry, because there was no river.

2 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

ADWD BRAN III:

"The caves were timeless, vast, silent. They were home to more than three score living singers and the bones of thousands dead, and extended far below the hollow hill. "Men should not go wandering in this place," Leaf warned them. "The river you hear is swift and black, and flows down and down to a sunless sea. And there are passages that go even deeper, bottomless pits and sudden shafts, forgotten ways that lead to the very center of the earth. Even my people have not explored them all, and we have lived here for a thousand thousand of your man-years."

 

I think that if there are forgotten ways that lead to the very centre of the earth it's quite plausible that there are underground passages that lead south of the wall. 

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And if we think of it from that angle then it is easily possible there is a cave network of passages that lead from the old CoTf stronghold in the stormlands from Arriane II, up to the cave beyond the wall and possibly other areas south of the Wall. Not made by the children, but already there.

So there is the possibility of all the caverns in westeros being linked but nobody can no for sure because not even the children have explored it?

 

•  

 

[Macgregor of the North]

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell said:

Yet Sam was dry, because there was no river.

 

This is in reply to the other bit about the children.

Spoiler

I know the children say they haven't explored them all but I think this means they have at least explored the caves connecting each stronghold that we know of, so there is likely a connection between the stormlands caves and the caves beyond the wall that the children have explored and know about I would think. 

 

[House Cambodia]

So basically there's a civilization of Morlocks under Westeros.

[CJ McLannister]

Jojen expected a river because it was a well.  Generally there's water at the bottom of wells.  

[Dorian Martell]

6 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

This is in reply to the other bit about the children.

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I know the children say they haven't explored them all but I think this means they have at least explored the caves connecting each stronghold that we know of, so there is likely a connection between the stormlands caves and the caves beyond the wall that the children have explored and know about I would think. 

 

you use words like "Likely" after you make an assumption about something that was never stated. When we see meera dive in a river and swim out under Storm's End, then yes, but as of now, not at all 

[Macgregor of the North]

11 hours ago, Dorian Martell said:

Yet Sam was dry, because there was no river.

 

This is in reply to the other bit about the children.

Spoiler

I know the children say they haven't explored them all but I think this means they have at least explored the caves connecting each stronghold that we know of, so there is likely a connection between the stormlands caves and the caves beyond the wall that the children have explored and know about. 

At the end I say 'I would think' @Dorian Martell so it's really just my personal view I'm stating, as in its likely 'I' would think. I'm not the type to state anything as fact that hasn't been confirmed as a fact. 

But I do personally think it's likely.

[aryagonnakill#2]

I personally think the theory that Bran and co will find their way back south via Gornes way just got  a huge boost.

The main objection to the theory has always been why not go north that way in the first place.  The obvious reasoning is that they did not have a way to navigate the tunnels, but that can easily become a secondary problem if the cave they are in now becomes unsafe and it is their only option.

[Dorian Martell]

1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said:

At the end I say 'I would think' @Dorian Martell so it's really just my personal view I'm stating, as in its likely 'I' would think. I'm not the type to state anything as fact that hasn't been confirmed as a fact. 

But I do personally think it's likely.

Fair. 

[grufolo]

On 19/5/2016 at 1:20 PM, grufolo said:

Would this make Bran the one blowing the Horn of Joramund? Can the Horn be a person?

Thoughts?

Don't look below if you don't want

Spoiler

There may have just been a big hint regarding this in the past show episode, for those who think that the books and show have still a lot in common. Since details are forbidden here, i'll discuss details in the section of GOT episode 6-05

 

[House Cambodia]

5 hours ago, grufolo said:

Don't look below if you don't want

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There may have just been a big hint regarding this in the past show episode, for those who think that the books and show have still a lot in common. Since details are forbidden here, i'll discuss details in the section of GOT episode 6-05

 

Where, dude, where? I wanna see your thoughts!