Sansa saving Winterfell, wildlings and the northerners

[Winter_Is_Coming21]

On 8/6/2016 at 11:14 PM, mattnj81 said:

I agree overall, but it seems LF does know based on his interaction with Sansa in the crypts last season. That being said, I don't buy this rumor and hope it is false for the reasons you stated.

There was a scene in one of the trailers where LF is in some snowy forest, turns around and is surprised to see someone. I don't think he survives that scene.

I hope GHOST drinks some blood from his throat in that scene. I choose violence here!!! Anyways likes of him, Cersei, Tyrells, KL & other southern shits & their politics has no relevance post the battle of WF! And Winter Is Coming!!

Winter, Long Night & Fighting the WW+NK is North's, NW's & Jon's domain!!  The show might be named Game of Thrones, but the story is named A Song of Ice & Fire after all!!

 

[Winter_Is_Coming21]

On 8/6/2016 at 11:25 PM, mattnj81 said:

I want to respond to that but don't want to post a potential spoiler. How do you do that "hidden contents" thing?

The 'eye' icon..

Re-edit - Apologies!! I quoted you in a reply & THEN read how many have already helped you!! My bad!! :-P 

[Winter_Is_Coming21]

On 8/6/2016 at 11:21 PM, IrisBest said:

It may be true but from what I heard from that spoiler all it said was

  Hide contents

that LF has information for Jon, and it didn't say what that information was specifically. People were just assuming it was R+L=J. The source of the spoiler itself also said they were not positive about this because they heard it secondhand. The other unconfirmed thing is that Ghost is present for that scene in the Godswood with LF.

Yeah, and it'd be especially strange if he somehow knew this secret after he somehow had no idea what kind of person Ramsay was despite Ramsay's infamy. 

Really? Is it WF's Godswood? & Ghost is there too!!??

I hope you are right & the Fcuker goes.. Let Ghost drink some blood from his throat!! And i want Sansa to ask Ghost to go ahead & enjoy his supper (just to make us feel her a true Stark finally)!!

[tugela]

The won't proclaim Jon rightful heir to anything. He is a bastard, he has no birthright. He can only make a claim if he is legitimized, and the only people who can do that is his father, overlord or king

[tugela]

5 hours ago, Ice Spider said:

Why is this line of reasoning repeated over and over and over again?

Jon being a Targaryen gives him 0 claim to the throne. The Targ's lost the throne because they were defeated. All lines of succession belong to the Baratheon's,, it doesn't revert back to the defeated........

Jon being a Stark on his mothers side doesn't give him jack didlly squat in terms of the Iron throne, Hell, it puts him at the end of the list at being in succession to be lord of Winterfell. Only thing it does is it makes him no longer a bastard/

So stop already.......please?

The Targaryens can recover the throne if there are no direct heirs from Robert. Technically the succession would be determined by the preceeding kings, and since a Targaryen preceded Robert, if Tommen dies then Daenerys would have a valid claim. If someone else wanted the throne for themselves (Stannis or Renly, for example), they would be usurpers and would have to take the throne by force or acclamation, as Robert did.

Robert was one of three lords who rebelled against the mad king (Ned and Jon being the other two). Robert got the throne because he had the closest claim to the throne (his grandmother was a Targaryen). He was in the line of succession anyway, just there were some people ahead of him in the line (so he killed them). That was the reason he wanted the remaining Targaryens dead. Once Viserys and Daenerys were dead then no one would have a more valid claim to the throne than him.

If it turns out that Daenerys is really Rhaegars bastard daughter, then she would have no claim anyway, and Robert's descendants would be the true heirs to the crown irrespective of her being alive. Of course Robert's descendents are really Lannisters who should have no claim, but no one can prove it so they keep their titles.

If Jon is Lyanna's son, not Ned's, it makes no difference to his status. He would still be a bastard and not entitled to any titles.

[Lord Friendzone]

1 minute ago, tugela said:

The Targaryens can recover the throne if there are no direct heirs from Robert. Technically the succession would be determined by the preceeding kings, and since a Targaryen preceded Robert, if Tommen dies then Daenerys would have a valid claim. If someone else wanted the throne for themselves (Stannis or Renly, for example), they would be usurpers and would have to take the throne by force or acclamation, as Robert did.

Robert was one of three lords who rebelled against the mad king (Ned and Jon being the other two). Robert got the throne because he had the closest claim to the throne (his grandmother was a Targaryen). He was in the line of succession anyway, just there were some people ahead of him in the line (so he killed them). That was the reason he wanted the remaining Targaryens dead. Once Viserys and Daenerys were dead then no one would have a more valid claim to the throne than him.

If it turns out that Daenerys is really Rhaegars bastard daughter, then she would have no claim anyway, and Robert's descendants would be the true heirs to the crown irrespective of her being alive. Of course Robert's descendents are really Lannisters who should have no claim, bit no one can prove it so they keep their titles.

If Jon is Lyanna's son, not Ned's, it makes no difference to his status. He would still be a bastard and not entitled to any titles.

It's just not about name. His actions will earn him titles.

[tugela]

10 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

It's just not about name. His actions will earn him titles.

You should read the conversation between Sansa (who was pretending to be Alayne Stone) and Myranda Royce on their trip down from the Eyrie to get a sense of the attitude of trueborn nobles towards bastards. For example, she remarks that Sansa has nice breasts, but she doesn't need to worry about them because they are bastard breasts. And she says this directly to Sansa. While she likes Alayne, Alayne is still a bastard and consequently is nobody.

Mya Stone is one of Robert's bastards, and she gets to look after mules even though she is a king's daughter.

[Red Tiger]

14 minutes ago, tugela said:

You should read the conversation between Sansa (who was pretending to be Alayne Stone) and Myranda Royce on their trip down from the Eyrie to get a sense of the attitude of trueborn nobles towards bastards. For example, she remarks that Sansa has nice breasts, but she doesn't need to worry about them because they are bastard breasts. And she says this directly to Sansa. While she likes Alayne, Alayne is still a bastard and consequently is nobody.

Mya Stone is one of Robert's bastards, and she gets to look after mules even though she is a king's daughter.

You really shouldnt compare the books and the series.

Just look at how the books look at the topic of kinslaying for instance, Northern loyalty and the fact that in the show Robett Glover never even seems to use the fact that Jon is a bastard against him.

[Future Null Infinity]

24 minutes ago, tugela said:

You should read the conversation between Sansa (who was pretending to be Alayne Stone) and Myranda Royce on their trip down from the Eyrie to get a sense of the attitude of trueborn nobles towards bastards. For example, she remarks that Sansa has nice breasts, but she doesn't need to worry about them because they are bastard breasts. And she says this directly to Sansa. While she likes Alayne, Alayne is still a bastard and consequently is nobody.

Mya Stone is one of Robert's bastards, and she gets to look after mules even though she is a king's daughter.

I think that there are two rights in GoT:

• rights by name : inherit the lands and take the lordship the your house by succession
• rights by conquest : you can take any land and any house from their rightful persons by winning in war

36 minutes ago, tugela said:

If Jon is Lyanna's son, not Ned's, it makes no difference to his status. He would still be a bastard and not entitled to any titles

I think your are right, Ramsay (everybody knows that he's the son of roose) didn't have any right on dreadfort until king tommen legitimize him, after his legitimization and roose death, he became lord bolton and warden on the north, legitimization is the keyword

[Lord Friendzone]

15 minutes ago, tugela said:

You should read the conversation between Sansa (who was pretending to be Alayne Stone) and Myranda Royce on their trip down from the Eyrie to get a sense of the attitude of trueborn nobles towards bastards. For example, she remarks that Sansa has nice breasts, but she doesn't need to worry about them because they are bastard breasts. And she says this directly to Sansa. While she likes Alayne, Alayne is still a bastard and consequently is nobody.

Mya Stone is one of Robert's bastards, and she gets to look after mules even though she is a king's daughter.

Show and series are different. Nobody was bothered by the fact Jon is a deserter and Notherners should be asking quetions about it and also Glover never for once was bothered by the fact he's a bastard. Lyanna Mormont even with the fact he is a bastard gave him men. KIngslaying is not ana issue anymore on the show with everyone being fine with it. Euron killed Balon and admitted it.

Spoilers

From truede reliable source so far. Jon is made King in the North and basically Jon Stark. Northerners will kneel for him and Sansa will agree with him. He will prove himself in the battle by leading them into suicide mission abut victory in the end thanks to the Vale.They even made a point that they couldn't care less if he's a bastard. They will see a leader that can be King.

[Winter_Is_Coming21]

37 minutes ago, tugela said:

You should read the conversation between Sansa (who was pretending to be Alayne Stone) and Myranda Royce on their trip down from the Eyrie to get a sense of the attitude of trueborn nobles towards bastards. For example, she remarks that Sansa has nice breasts, but she doesn't need to worry about them because they are bastard breasts. And she says this directly to Sansa. While she likes Alayne, Alayne is still a bastard and consequently is nobody.

Mya Stone is one of Robert's bastards, and she gets to look after mules even though she is a king's daughter.

This is why there is a Robb's Will in the books.. If it exists & contain the things he discussed with Catelyn, then i think it'll play a significant role for Jon.. In the show however, it doesn't matter.. Jon can become King even if he has no claim on WF..

[watcher of the night]

1 hour ago, tugela said:

The won't proclaim Jon rightful heir to anything. He is a bastard, he has no birthright. He can only make a claim if he is legitimized, and the only people who can do that is his father, overlord or king

Tell that to the Sandsnakes, they seem to have no problem ruling Dorne. Look, this is the show, it is F*cked up in many ways: kingslaying, kinslaying or being a bastard does not matter as long as the plot demands it.

[Future Null Infinity]

Poor kit harington, he shaved his beard off and now there are thousands of theories about the end of game of thrones, can't anyone shave off his beard in peace in this world?

in other news, Cogman explains why LittleFinger have a teleporter :

http://winteriscoming.net/2016/06/09/game-of-thrones-writer-explains-how-characters-travel-so-quickly/

And where is Melisandre? she said that Jon is the the prince that was promised and now she's gone, last time she fled from the battlefield, stannis was killed  

[yakisikli123]

8 hours ago, tugela said:

The Targaryens can recover the throne if there are no direct heirs from Robert. Technically the succession would be determined by the preceeding kings, and since a Targaryen preceded Robert, if Tommen dies then Daenerys would have a valid claim. If someone else wanted the throne for themselves (Stannis or Renly, for example), they would be usurpers and would have to take the throne by force or acclamation, as Robert did.

Robert was one of three lords who rebelled against the mad king (Ned and Jon being the other two). Robert got the throne because he had the closest claim to the throne (his grandmother was a Targaryen). He was in the line of succession anyway, just there were some people ahead of him in the line (so he killed them). That was the reason he wanted the remaining Targaryens dead. Once Viserys and Daenerys were dead then no one would have a more valid claim to the throne than him.

If it turns out that Daenerys is really Rhaegars bastard daughter, then she would have no claim anyway, and Robert's descendants would be the true heirs to the crown irrespective of her being alive. Of course Robert's descendents are really Lannisters who should have no claim, but no one can prove it so they keep their titles.

If Jon is Lyanna's son, not Ned's, it makes no difference to his status. He would still be a bastard and not entitled to any titles.

Robert got the throne not because of Targ line, he got it by force, this Targ line helped him only a bit for the acceptance.

Who says Jon is a bastard you can clearly see from RLJ he is not. And no the Baratheons havent any claim for the throne, because the heir was Jon himself before the Baratheons, you can see this if you read about TOJ. The eldest son (Rhaegar) living eldest son (Jon).

Jon comes before Dany and of course before Robert, Joffrey (not important they are dead) and Tommen.

The only problem is proving it.

8 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

It's just not about name. His actions will earn him titles.

Like the answer above, his actions show the others how a king commander looks like, but RLJ is also very important matter for them.

[mattnj81]

18 hours ago, tugela said:

They didn't care at all about bastards. As far as the nobles were concerned, such people were commoners, and consequently of little importance.

I was replying to a comment about people being suspicious about Jon's status, i.e. "Hey look Lyanna Stark has been gone for quite a while and here comes her brother with a baby, what a coincidence." 

[Future Null Infinity]

1 hour ago, yakisikli123 said:

The only problem is proving it.

I agree, the real problem is how to prove to other people that Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna son, maybe this is when Howland Reed will come into the picture or just proving it is not so essential to the progression of the story

[Lord Friendzone]

1 minute ago, Future Null Infinity said:

I agree, the real problem is how to prove to other people that Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna son, maybe this is when Howland Reed will come to picture or just proving it is not so essential to the progression of the story

There must be someting in the crypts of Winterfell. Jon was afraid to go there in his dream. Howland can't really prove anything unless he's got will or some documents. Bran might be the one to reveal it to us and Jon. Also he might know how to prove it, he's seen it all or he has the knowledge of Three Eyed Raven.

[Future Null Infinity]

38 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

There must be someting in the crypts of Winterfell. Jon was afraid to go there in his dream. Howland can't really prove anything unless he's got will or some documents. Bran might be the one to reveal it to us and Jon. Also he might know how to prove it, he's seen it all or he has the knowledge of Three Eyed Raven.

something or someone must prove it, he needs some justice, he didn't like at all be a bastard  but the beauty of his story is the recurring theme that even he's a bastard, in a way or another he always ends up in a position of power

[tugela]

10 hours ago, Future Null Infinity said:

I think that there are two rights in GoT:

• rights by name : inherit the lands and take the lordship the your house by succession
• rights by conquest : you can take any land and any house from their rightful persons by winning in war

I think your are right, Ramsay (everybody knows that he's the son of roose) didn't have any right on dreadfort until king tommen legitimize him, after his legitimization and roose death, he became lord bolton and warden on the north, legitimization is the keyword

And as Sansa pointed out to him, his new brother would have the title because, legitimization or not, a trueborn son always comes before a bastard. That is why Ramsey killed them. The child was murdered because of Sansa's comments to Ramsey.

[tugela]

10 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Show and series are different. Nobody was bothered by the fact Jon is a deserter and Notherners should be asking quetions about it and also Glover never for once was bothered by the fact he's a bastard. Lyanna Mormont even with the fact he is a bastard gave him men. KIngslaying is not ana issue anymore on the show with everyone being fine with it. Euron killed Balon and admitted it.

Spoilers

 

  Reveal hidden contents

From truede reliable source so far. Jon is made King in the North and basically Jon Stark. Northerners will kneel for him and Sansa will agree with him. He will prove himself in the battle by leading them into suicide mission abut victory in the end thanks to the Vale.They even made a point that they couldn't care less if he's a bastard. They will see a leader that can be King.

 

We know what the prevailing attitude to bastards in Westeros is from Sansa's comments to Ramsey, and Cersei's ambivalent attitude to Robert's bastards (Joffrey was the one killing them off, because he felt personally offended by their existence).