Real Reason Rhaegar abducting Lyanna (Love, Hatred, Politics, Child, or Raegar is only a bad Person)

[Lord Cactus]

2 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

i think all targ supporters will think this is a love story, including barri, dany and viserys. they loved rhaegar so that, of course in their mind,  rhaegar fell in beautiful love so he eloped with her due to passion. 

and all rebel supporters will think rhaegar is bad buy and kidnapped and raped her because this is their cause for the war. 

ned is kind of special because lyanna must have told him how she fell in love with rhaegar before her death. 

but GRRM will not make things so easy. 

i bet prophecy plays a large role there. that is rhaegar's main motivation. 

All of this. Regardless of what the truth his, some will always look at it one way and others will always look at it the other. Just the way it goes.

[MinotaurWarrior]

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Wait, I already posted two quotes that word for word say Rhaegar loved Lyanna...

You posted two times that Dany recalled Viserys' claim that Rhaegar loved Lyanna (which wouldn't even mean he was motivated by love - Eddard loved Cat but he never started any wars because of that love)

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Rhaegar naming Lyanna "Queen of Love and Beauty" is just icing on the cake. Or that his song made her cry, or winter roses...

 

If he gave her the crown because of love, that would make him stupider than Cersei (at least she had her indiscretions behind closed doors). At most those other signs could indicate that Lyanna was touched by his gestures, but that wouldn't speak towards his motivations.

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Not to mention Rhaegar dying with a woman's name on his lips.

 

Even assuming that name was Lyanna, that doesn't tell us anything. Clearly Lyanna was important to him somehow - otherwise, he wouldn't have pissed off literally every major lord in the seven kingdoms by crowning her king of love and beauty, and then triggered a rebellion by running off with her. Hell, even in some bizarre world where this was all just a misunderstanding and Rhaegar didn't run off with Lyanna (say he was framed by Varys), her name is still the most relevant to say when you just got your chest caved in in a fight over her.

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Its hard for me to believe you could read the series any other way... But I mean maybe most telling of all is Ned's thoughts/lack of malice towards Rhaegar.

Ned also doesn't spend a lot of time thinking hateful thoughts about Balon, the guy who rebelled for the expressed purpose of bringing back rape, slavery, and pillaging. Ned almost certainly has no idea what motivated Rhaegar or what really went on between him and Lyanna, beyond the barest details. He wasn't there for any of their interactions after the crowning, he didn't live with his sister, and when he finally met up with her, she was dying and insisting on binding him with oaths. And Ned probably doesn't care.

In the series, we see Rhaegar as an enigmatic historical figure onto whom various people project feelings that tell us more about themselves than about Rhaegar. Viserys says he did nothing wrong. Robert says he did everything wrong. Cersei says everything would have been better had she had her way. But none of these people have any way of knowing the truth.

The  people who really knew anything about Rhaegar only ever provide one motive for his actions: prophecy. The only time we see him directly on the page (the HotU vision) he isn't talking about how much he loves his wife or loves his newborn or loved horse-faced 15 year olds. He's talking about how his baby will fulfil prophecy, and how he needs another baby to fulfil prophecy.

[UnViserion]

2 hours ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

The  people who really knew anything about Rhaegar only ever provide one motive for his actions: prophecy. 

This isn't entirely true. Barristan said "Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna." He isn't exactly what I would call one of Rhaegars guys, he was loyal to his king (saved Aerys from Duskendale). 

Other than that we have the HotU vision, which I frankly don't view as completely reliable. Even if we do accept it as a factual occurance, I'm not sure I would say it points to prophecy obsession, though it would certainly tip the scales in that direction. 

[purple-eyes]

i still felt rhaegar was driven mainly by prophecy. 

when lyanna attended the tourney, she was around 13-14 years old. i always feel it is hard to believe that a 22 year old rhaegar (and a father and a husband and a crown prince) just fell in mad love with a 14 year old lyanna within two days and had to publicly humiliate his wife to show his passion and love to this teenager, i had to say it is quite unlikely. 

 

 

[UnViserion]

4 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

i still felt rhaegar was driven mainly by prophecy. 

when lyanna attended the tourney, she was around 13-14 years old. i always feel it is hard to believe that a 22 year old rhaegar (and a father and a husband and a crown prince) just fell in mad love with a 14 year old lyanna within two days and had to publicly humiliate his wife to show his passion and love to this teenager, i had to say it is quite unlikely. 

Don't you dare disagree with me on this. 

[Curled Finger]

Admittedly, I'm not a Rhaegar authority. I've read every single one of these books multiple times and the only person I ever see badmouthing Rhaegar is Robert who didn't actually know Rhaegar that well.   Seems to me that there is a giant hole in the Rhaegar/Lyanna story.  Overall characters seem to think well of Rhaegar and to a lesser extent, Lyanna.  I think I'll wait for Stannis to say something witty before I condemn Rhaegar.  Or Varys, for certainly he knows a lot more than we do about all of it.  Or Howland Reed who was at Harrenhall and the Tower of Joy.  Or Doran who keeps secrets and plans for years.   Or even Jamie, who was there if not in the thick of the drama.  There are still characters who may be able to shed more light on Rhaegar's motives.   Even the World Book, written expressly for a Baratheon king doesn't paint Rhaegar as a terrible guy.   He is credited with some political forethought at Harrenhall as well as telling Jamie things were going to change upon his return from war.   There is a reason Rhaegar acquired Lyanna (carefully chosen word there).  There is a reason Lyanna threw in with Rhaegar.  If R+L= J there is a reason they united.  My problem with Rhaegar and Lyanna both is the fact that a war was permitted to happen, though the more I read the more convinced I am that war was eminent anyway and Lyanna's disappearance was the convenient excuse at the time.    If the crowning of the QOLAB was such a big deal why didn't Robert get up and confront Rhaegar directly right then and there?   He thought it was fine to begin a war over Lyanna, but not to speak with the prince at Harrenhall?   So what?   Lyanna has this cool crown of blue roses and just sits next to Robert at dinner?  I'm of the mind that Lyanna served both political and prophetic purposes for Rhaegar.  Possibly political reasons for Lyanna as well.  The story as we have it is incomplete.  

[purple-eyes]

37 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Admittedly, I'm not a Rhaegar authority. I've read every single one of these books multiple times and the only person I ever see badmouthing Rhaegar is Robert who didn't actually know Rhaegar that well.   Seems to me that there is a giant hole in the Rhaegar/Lyanna story.  Overall characters seem to think well of Rhaegar and to a lesser extent, Lyanna.  I think I'll wait for Stannis to say something witty before I condemn Rhaegar.  Or Varys, for certainly he knows a lot more than we do about all of it.  Or Howland Reed who was at Harrenhall and the Tower of Joy.  Or Doran who keeps secrets and plans for years.   Or even Jamie, who was there if not in the thick of the drama.  There are still characters who may be able to shed more light on Rhaegar's motives.   Even the World Book, written expressly for a Baratheon king doesn't paint Rhaegar as a terrible guy.   He is credited with some political forethought at Harrenhall as well as telling Jamie things were going to change upon his return from war.   There is a reason Rhaegar acquired Lyanna (carefully chosen word there).  There is a reason Lyanna threw in with Rhaegar.  If R+L= J there is a reason they united.  My problem with Rhaegar and Lyanna both is the fact that a war was permitted to happen, though the more I read the more convinced I am that war was eminent anyway and Lyanna's disappearance was the convenient excuse at the time.    If the crowning of the QOLAB was such a big deal why didn't Robert get up and confront Rhaegar directly right then and there?   He thought it was fine to begin a war over Lyanna, but not to speak with the prince at Harrenhall?   So what?   Lyanna has this cool crown of blue roses and just sits next to Robert at dinner?  I'm of the mind that Lyanna served both political and prophetic purposes for Rhaegar.  Possibly political reasons for Lyanna as well.  The story as we have it is incomplete.  

Just to clarify, Robert was not present when crowning happened. He heard it later and he was  not happy with it. brandon and Ned were there and they were angry with rhaegar. 

oberyn would be another angry guy. But I doubt he was present since he did not mention this crowning when he talked about rhaegar and Elia. 

you said only Robert bad mouthed rhaegar. This is not true. We just do not have enough POV. 

If elia lived, if ashara lived, if lewyn lived, if Brandon lived, if rickard lived, I highly doubt they would say rhaegar is wonderful and great and their love story is so shinning and pretty and blablabla. They are dead so they are silent. 

 

[devilish]

9 hours ago, Kal-L said:

Since when ? Especially since when a Prince has power to usurp a Lord father's right ?

Rhaegar overestimated himself and his power and at the end he paid for it at the Trident where he suffered an overwhelming defeat.

Since forever. Do you think that a King would allow his crown prince to be punished because he took the bethroned of the Targ's historical stable boys? When Brandon marched into KL demanding justice he ended up arrested (justified) and killed (overreaction)

What Rhaegar overestimated was his father madness which translated into a diplomatic mess of epic proportion. The rebellion didn't start because of Rhaegar but because of Aerys obsession in having Lord Paramount's heads on a spike

[joluoto2]

Love: possible

Hatred: hatred of whom?

Politics: politically it was really bad move, unless he wanted a revolt to happen. Of course he might have wanted that.

Child: possible

bad person: might be. good or bad person can be combined with any of the reasons above.

[Kaibaman]

I've always been under the impression that Lyanna was just very unwilling to marry Robert. That when she met Rhaegar at the tourney of Harrenhal and the two fell in love, she may have then expressed her desire to escape the terrible marriage she was about to have with Robert and Rhaegar being the good prince that he was decided to help her. I think this was why Rhaegar 'abducted' her and both of them kept their elopement a secret.

[joluoto2]

5 minutes ago, Kaibaman said:

I've always been under the impression that Lyanna was just very unwilling to marry Robert. That when she met Rhaegar at the tourney of Harrenhal and the two fell in love, she may have then expressed her desire to escape the terrible marriage she was about to have with Robert and Rhaegar being the good prince that he was decided to help her. I think this was why Rhaegar 'abducted' her and both of them kept their elopement a secret.

Except somehow their secret elopement wasn't a secret and Brandon found out about it almost immidiately. And we're back to something must have gone terribly wrong for the secret not to be a secret.

[devilish]

1 hour ago, Kaibaman said:

I've always been under the impression that Lyanna was just very unwilling to marry Robert. That when she met Rhaegar at the tourney of Harrenhal and the two fell in love, she may have then expressed her desire to escape the terrible marriage she was about to have with Robert and Rhaegar being the good prince that he was decided to help her. I think this was why Rhaegar 'abducted' her and both of them kept their elopement a secret.

I don't believe in love at first sight however I agree with infatuation + a way of getting rid of a messy situation. Rhaegar was obsessed by that prophecy and Elia couldn't have any more children. Lyanna saw Rhaegar as a way out of an arranged marriage with a neanderthal. Surely Robert wouldn't rebel for a woman wouldn't he?

 

[tugela]

I think Rhaegar was mentally ill. He is like a charismatic cult leader who has apocalyptic delusions of grandeur. Everyone thinks he is cool, but he is fooling everyone. He is the Charles Manson, the Jim Jones, the David Karesh of his world, an older guy leading young starry eyed teenage girls on his crazy quest to save the world by "making the savior" (and conveniently getting lots of nookie alone the way). Just read all of the descriptions of his behavior and it becomes obvious.

He is a chip off the Mad Kings block.

[tugela]

5 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Admittedly, I'm not a Rhaegar authority. I've read every single one of these books multiple times and the only person I ever see badmouthing Rhaegar is Robert who didn't actually know Rhaegar that well.   Seems to me that there is a giant hole in the Rhaegar/Lyanna story.  Overall characters seem to think well of Rhaegar and to a lesser extent, Lyanna.  I think I'll wait for Stannis to say something witty before I condemn Rhaegar.  Or Varys, for certainly he knows a lot more than we do about all of it.  Or Howland Reed who was at Harrenhall and the Tower of Joy.  Or Doran who keeps secrets and plans for years.   Or even Jamie, who was there if not in the thick of the drama.  There are still characters who may be able to shed more light on Rhaegar's motives.   Even the World Book, written expressly for a Baratheon king doesn't paint Rhaegar as a terrible guy.   He is credited with some political forethought at Harrenhall as well as telling Jamie things were going to change upon his return from war.   There is a reason Rhaegar acquired Lyanna (carefully chosen word there).  There is a reason Lyanna threw in with Rhaegar.  If R+L= J there is a reason they united.  My problem with Rhaegar and Lyanna both is the fact that a war was permitted to happen, though the more I read the more convinced I am that war was eminent anyway and Lyanna's disappearance was the convenient excuse at the time.    If the crowning of the QOLAB was such a big deal why didn't Robert get up and confront Rhaegar directly right then and there?   He thought it was fine to begin a war over Lyanna, but not to speak with the prince at Harrenhall?   So what?   Lyanna has this cool crown of blue roses and just sits next to Robert at dinner?  I'm of the mind that Lyanna served both political and prophetic purposes for Rhaegar.  Possibly political reasons for Lyanna as well.  The story as we have it is incomplete.  

The Harrenhal slight (which was a slight to Elia, not Robert btw) did not cause the war. Technically the war was started when the king killed the Starks and demanded that Arryn's wards be surrendered as hostages. Since they knew that they would probably die if they did that, they rebelled instead. They had no other realistic option.

The events at Harrenhal started a chain of events that eventually led to war, but it did not start the war itself. If the king had just told the Starks to suck it up and blamed them for raising Lyanna wrong, then sent them on their way, there likely would have been no war. At least not then.

[Kal-L]

4 hours ago, devilish said:

Since forever. Do you think that a King would allow his crown prince to be punished because he took the bethroned of the Targ's historical stable boys? When Brandon marched into KL demanding justice he ended up arrested (justified) and killed (overreaction)

What Rhaegar overestimated was his father madness which translated into a diplomatic mess of epic proportion. The rebellion didn't start because of Rhaegar but because of Aerys obsession in having Lord Paramount's heads on a spike

I didn't ask you for assumption, I did ask you to answer since when it is in his power to break betrothal. Rhaegar only way to do it was through a polygamous marriage and at the end he paid for it so no it didn't have the power. He overestimated his power as a Prince, the influence of his family, his warrior skills and his battle commander skills, that's why he lost everything.

[devilish]

1 hour ago, Kal-L said:

I didn't ask you for assumption, I did ask you to answer since when it is in his power to break betrothal. Rhaegar only way to do it was through a polygamous marriage and at the end he paid for it so no it didn't have the power. He overestimated his power as a Prince, the influence of his family, his warrior skills and his battle commander skills, that's why he lost everything.

I repeat the war didn't start because of the Lyanna-Rhaegar affair.  Even when it was clear that Rhaegar had kidnapped Lyanna and Brandon was arrested because of it, Rickard preferred to peacefully negotiate with the king rather then call the banners and march to KL. The only one causing an issue about Rhaegar-Lyanna's affair was Brandon, a Gallant fool (Hoster Tully) who was never shy about taking what he wanted (Lady Dustin)

What caused the war wasn't Rhaegar-Lyanna but Aerys. He killed a Lord Paramount and his heir and ordered Lord Arryn to kill another Lord Paramount and heir on his behalf. We're talking about ancient houses here who had served the kingdom for centuries and some defended their realm long before that. Its scandalous to ask for their heads especially since they were innocent from any crime (ok Brandon challenged Rhaegar but its also true that Rhaegar stole his sister so we can call it even). It was Aerys not Rhaegar who gave the rebels no choice but to rebel

I encourage you not to see things from a modern mentality but from a feudal mentality point of view. Women were prized pawns at the time, meant to improve relationships between the two noble houses. Lyanna herself was promised to Robert despite she wasn't happy with him marrying him. Dont take me wrong, Lord Stark would surely be pissed off of what had happened to Lyanna. However it would be a matter of getting compensation for the insult rather then starting a civil war.

Things would have been different if Lyanna escaped with a commoner. The poor guy would probably end up chased throughout all Westeros and would probably find himself in the Dreadfort

[purple-eyes]

20 minutes ago, devilish said:

I repeat the war didn't start because of the Lyanna-Rhaegar affair.  Even when it was clear that Rhaegar had kidnapped Lyanna and Brandon was arrested because of it, Rickard preferred to peacefully negotiate with the king rather then call the banners and march to KL. The only one causing an issue about Rhaegar-Lyanna's affair was Brandon, a Gallant fool (Hoster Tully) who was never shy about taking what he wanted (Lady Dustin)

What caused the war wasn't Rhaegar-Lyanna but Aerys. He killed a Lord Paramount and his heir and ordered Lord Arryn to kill another Lord Paramount and heir on his behalf. We're talking about ancient houses here who had served the kingdom for centuries and some defended their realm long before that. Its scandalous to ask for their heads especially since they were innocent from any crime (ok Brandon challenged Rhaegar but its also true that Rhaegar stole his sister so we can call it even). It was Aerys not Rhaegar who gave the rebels no choice but to rebel

I encourage you not to see things from a modern mentality but from a feudal mentality point of view. Women were prized pawns at the time, meant to improve relationships between the two noble houses. Lyanna herself was promised to Robert despite she wasn't happy with him marrying him. Dont take me wrong, Lord Stark would surely be pissed off of what had happened to Lyanna. However it would be a matter of getting compensation for the insult rather then starting a civil war.

Things would have been different if Lyanna escaped with a commoner. The poor guy would probably end up chased throughout all Westeros and would probably find himself in the Dreadfort

you are so wrong. and i can see you are trying to whitewash R and L. sure, many people tried to do this because these two are pretty, badass, great, romantic, etc. etc. but it is wrong. 

even aerys is not mad, what rhaegar did will cause s war. look at laughing storm and aegon V. nobody died, nobody was mad, only a marriage promise was broken, prince is ready to quit to compensate, but bloody rebellion happened. that is a time when people can fight and die for honor and promise. rhaegar is a crown prince, whatever he did is going to be very influential, even aerys is a sane man, there is still a high chance to have a war. 

[devilish]

35 minutes ago, devilish said:

 

[devilish]

12 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

you are so wrong. and i can see you are trying to whitewash R and L. sure, many people tried to do this because these two are pretty, badass, great, romantic, etc. etc. but it is wrong. 

even aerys is not mad, what rhaegar did will cause s war. look at laughing storm and aegon V. nobody died, nobody was mad, only a marriage promise was broken, prince is ready to quit to compensate, but bloody rebellion happened. that is a time when people can fight and die for honor and promise. rhaegar is a crown prince, whatever he did is going to be very influential, even aerys is a sane man, there is still a high chance to have a war. 

It depends on individuals of course. For example if Brandon was Lord Paramount and Robert was in the Stormlands then I fancy the fools to raise the banners and march to KL (the fight now and think later strategy). However in this case the top houses were mostly lead by reasonable people who understood that a person's honour doesn't justify a full blown war. The Targs weren't perfect but they brought a certain level and stability in Westeros something which would probably end if they were deposed. 

It was only when Aerys decided to collect Lord Paramounts and their heirs heads that things got nasty. He gave his Lord Paramounts no choice but to rebel

[LiveFirstDieLater]

As many have pointed out it was the executions of the Stark Lord and heir, and the demand for noble blood that caused the armies to march...

I would like to suggest that perhaps Lyanna did try to prevent a war by telling Brandon she was running off (probably not in person) but that this is how he found out so quickly. After that Rhaegar and Lyanna were hiding in the south and wouldn't have known that Brandon charged into KL expecting to find them, and the blood started flowing. Only when see Gerald Hightower was sent to retrieve Rhaegar would the extent of the repercussions of their elopement become plain...

but admittedly it is speculation