Theory on why the show ain't up to snuff

[Apathetic Onlooker]

Just now, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Well if someone is going to say

 

"

Most of the posters in this thread could crap out better scripts in a weekend than D & D could do in a month. They lack the experience, understanding, intelligence and foresight to write a good script and thats not going to change. How those guys got into TV I'll never understand. ""

Then they open themselves up to that retort.

Fair enough.  Though I think he was speaking hyperbolically.

[SerMixalot]

3 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Martins writes 2 meandering, slow as a snail's chuffs novels that are borderline unadaptable, require huge rewrites just to get them into even a reasonable shape.. Just to get that structure working is a just a momentous task that its a miracle any of it works at all. 

But its fine, the Martin love is strong in this one, the blinkers are on.. I don't expect you guys to agree or understand. You probably think the books are great.

If they are unadaptable then why are D&D going back to those books for storylines in season 6

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

Just now, SerMixalot said:

If they are unadaptable then why are D&D going back to those books for storylines in season 6

..that argument doesn't actually make sense. They are still adapting them. 

[SuperMario]

2 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Martins writes 2 meandering, slow as a snail's chuffs novels that are borderline unadaptable, require huge rewrites just to get them into even a reasonable shape.. Just to get that structure working is a just a momentous task that its a miracle any of it works at all. 

But its fine, the Martin love is strong in this one, the blinkers are on.. I don't expect you guys to agree or understand. You probably think the books are great.

Again, you are deflecting as you usually do. We are in a show thread talking about the show writers. If Martin wrote such slow, meandering works with books 4 and 5, and apparently the show writers thought so, why didn't they come up with something better on screen. It's not like they don't know how the story is going to end and haven't known about it for years. They had Point A and Point Z from day 1. Good writers could have taken out some of the "fluff" and still presented a good package for the viewers.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

Just now, SuperMario said:

Again, you are deflecting as you usually do. We are in a show thread talking about the show writers. If Martin wrote such slow, meandering works with books 4 and 5, and apparently the show writers thought so, why didn't they come up with something better on screen. It's not like they don't know how the story is going to end and haven't known about it for years. They had Point A and Point Z from day 1. Good writers could have taken out some of the "fluff" and still presented a good package for the viewers.

Thats simply not an argument. I'm surprised you even keep saying it. It really lacks logic. 

Its not like you simply cut stuff out and then are left with load of material to work with. Martin has created a story where everything in each narrative relies on all the other elements to work. Why do you think he's spending so long writing his books and failing to make it work. You are basically asking them to do what Martin has utterly failed to do, in a 5th of the time. 

[SerMixalot]

GoT has many problems.  The writing for GoT has many problems

Giving D&D all the benefits of all the doubts.  They have, by taking on the vast majority of writing responsibilities is self evidently a mistake.

Given, I am not an expert on writing scripts for a drama series but to write 350 to 400 pages of scripts per year seems an absurdly difficult chore to do well.  Compound that with their massive other responsibilities and combine that with the evidence of the control they want to influence on activities beyond writing then you are left with the undeniable fact that writing that much is beyond any human being's capabilities. 

I don't have a problem with them wanting to control the show, that is their job and function and yes they are entitled to it given they have been given the shows to create.  Not that I agree with their vision-in fact I find it abominable and offensive.  But they are the showrunners so it is their baby.

But it is indisputable that those responsibilities and the way they have chosen to execute those responsibilities leaves little time for the effort required to create good scripts. This is magnified by the complexity of the show's production

Writing is obviously the core of a tv show. And writing should not be short changed if you expect success at the other end.  I get the temptation for a show runner to want to write-that is the ultimate control.  But given the limited time available and given the limited time available to show runners have to devote to writing, the quality has to suffer.  It cannot be avoided. 

The show would benefit incredibly if other writers would be brought on to take that responsibility from them.  Unfortunately that hasn't been nor will be done.

And blaming it on GRRM, well that is simply nonsense.  Yes the stories may seem slower but they do have drama, it is D&D's responsibility to make that work or to substitute stories that are internally and externally consistent with what they are telling in the short term and long term-in terms of characterization, themes and plot.  IF they are unable to do that they have no right being the show runners.

 

 

[Ruhail]

6 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Thats simply not an argument. I'm surprised you even keep saying it. It really lacks logic. 

Its not like you simply cut stuff out and then are left with load of material to work with. Martin has created a story where everything in each narrative relies on all the other elements to work. Why do you think he's spending so long writing his books and failing to make it work. You are basically asking them to do what Martin has utterly failed to do, in a 5th of the time. 

They should hire more writers and cut back on the number of eps they write to ease the pressure then. 

[SerMixalot]

9 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

..that argument doesn't actually make sense. They are still adapting them. 

"borderline unadaptable storylines" GoT ignores them for 2 seasons, runs out of book material so revisits them in season 6. ok

[Cas Stark]

12 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Martins writes 2 meandering, slow as a snail's chuffs novels that are borderline unadaptable, require huge rewrites just to get them into even a reasonable shape.. Just to get that structure working is a just a momentous task that its a miracle any of it works at all. 

But its fine, the Martin love is strong in this one, the blinkers are on.. I don't expect you guys to agree or understand. You probably think the books are great.

You don't answer any of the questions.  I can give you 50 questions if you want of utterly stupid, nonsensical plot points that the show has CREATED from scratch.

And yet somehow this original material is the fault of GRRM and Dance and Feast even though the showrunners know the ending and the major events. 

What does Feast and Dance being meandering have to do with shooting an Arya/Terminator/Parkour scene that belongs in a Bond film, not GOT?  Nothing.

It's just as someone else said, pure deflection.  

The fact that a ton of material could and should have been cut from Feast and Dance for a TV adaptation has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE SHOW"S POOR WRITING.  Nothing.

 

 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

There are 2 problems here that mean we will never agree.

1) You all think the show is really bad. I don't. I think some of the writing is pedestrian and unimaginative. But I'm mostly onboard with most of the decisions. I don't agree with many of the complaints on here.

2) You guys think the books are great and without problems. I disagree and think they are lacking any sort of narrative drive, pace, full of repetition and filler. 

So why even bother discussing.

[Cas Stark]

Just now, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

There are 2 problems here that mean we will never agree.

1) You all think the show is really bad. I don't. I think some of the writing is pedestrian and unimaginative. But I'm mostly onboard with most of the decisions. I don't agree with many of the complaints on here.

2) You guys think the books are great and without problems. I disagree and think they are lacking any sort of narrative drive, pace, full of repetition and filler. 

So why even bother discussing.

2) Who is you guys?  I am one of the most critical people in this entire forum when it comes to Feast, Dance and even the Winds chapters.  

You keep saying this, but it's deflection.  GRRM filler does not excuse show filler.  GRRM does not excuse show plots that would be stupid for a sitcom.  GRRM certainly cannot be blamed for the show's own original plots that are, yes, again, stupid.

[SerMixalot]

6 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Thats simply not an argument. I'm surprised you even keep saying it. It really lacks logic. 

Its not like you simply cut stuff out and then are left with load of material to work with. Martin has created a story where everything in each narrative relies on all the other elements to work. Why do you think he's spending so long writing his books and failing to make it work. You are basically asking them to do what Martin has utterly failed to do, in a 5th of the time. 

Ummm, not correct

Starting from the north

Jon-Pre assassination drama at the Wall-relatively self contained and dramatic-rushed in GoT cause need for Hardhome

Stannis/Mel/Davos-Lots of interactions with Jon and his story is continuing (through a number of battles)-Stannis rushed to his death

WF-Lots of political drama-GoT creates an abomination

Riverlands inc. Jamie, Freys, Tullys, Brienne-Political and familial drama (melancholy end to Tully house), Brienne's thematic journey could easily have been drafted for TV-Brienne sits in a room looking at a castle for episodes on end, ends up a Brute, Riverrrun story revisited long after is it relevant

Kings Landing-Cersei madness drama, Rise of the Faith, Tyrell-Lannister drama all are very readily made for TV-GoT has at least tried to adapt

Sansa-political drama-GoT abomination

Dorne-political and familial drama, admittedly would have required a number of new characters to adapt-GoT abomination

Tyrion journey-personal drama-GoT pointless rush to Mereen where he has sat doing nothing

Mereen/Dany-political drama which yes could have been properly done with a few characters-GoT weirdly varying Dany character, unintelligible Dothraki story

 

Using Dany and the Dothraki story as an example of the show wasting time and spinning its wheels.  She easily could have claimed the Dothraki in Episode 1 this season.  They arrive she sits on Drogon, burns a few hostile Khals and voila she owns the Dothraki as the Statllion that Mounts the World.  That action sequence could have happened anytime between late Season 5 to middle of Season 6, with Dany being in Mereen for the majorty of the rest of the 2 seasons.  This would have allowed for more time developing the politics of Mereen and its conflict with the other slaver Cities.  Instead we got countless rape threat scenes, Dany walking scenes, Dany empowering speech scenes.  Again the story was there to be told-Dany becomes leader of Mereen, balances her good intentions with conflicting factions, says Fuck It in fighting pits, meets and takes Dothraki and returns to Mereen to kick ass and take names.

[illinifan]

Really?  I do not think the show is bad at all.  This strikes me as more of a super fan complaint than anything.  Yes, there have been some missteps.  (For instance, I would have liked to have spent more time in the North and had more of a reaction to Jon's resurrection.)  However, this season has been great overall especially Episodes 3-5.  I think that the last few episodes have been slower because lots have to be set up for the finale and D&D spent their budget on the big battle next week and 

Spoiler

Cersei burning down KL

I also think that some of choices like the skepticism of the Northern Lords make sense.  Robb messed up and ended up getting lots of people killed.  Of course the nobles are not excited to fight in another losing cause.  

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

3 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

2) Who is you guys?  I am one of the most critical people in this entire forum when it comes to Feast, Dance and even the Winds chapters.  

You keep saying this, but it's deflection.  GRRM filler does not excuse show filler.  GRRM does not excuse show plots that would be stupid for a sitcom.  GRRM certainly cannot be blamed for the show's own original plots that are, yes, again, stupid.

Whats easier and takes less time?

1) Adapting a well laid out, relatively simplistic book that is narrower in scope with less characters, locations, interweaving plots, that is well paced and self contained.

2) Adapting a huge tome that contains multiple threads, characters and locations, tells its story in a slow, unfocussed manner and has almost no resolution or momentum?

.. its number 1 isn't it. 

So once you have to start adapting number 2, your problems are increased ten fold. You can't just do what you did before, which was making minor changes, suddenly you have to make huge sweeping changes to that material, and find a way to make it work for all storylines over a multi season period. Most of your energy is on trying to basically completely rewrite everything Martin has done, making it all fit into a smaller format. Its a huge task, and its unsurprising that occasionally it doesn't always work. 

GRRM filler does have a relevance to the show, because the show has to now, instead of using what Martin wrote, find a new way of cutting out all of Martins junk, and still make it work with all the other story elements. 

[SuperMario]

16 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Thats simply not an argument. I'm surprised you even keep saying it. It really lacks logic. 

Its not like you simply cut stuff out and then are left with load of material to work with. Martin has created a story where everything in each narrative relies on all the other elements to work. Why do you think he's spending so long writing his books and failing to make it work. You are basically asking them to do what Martin has utterly failed to do, in a 5th of the time. 

I never said that. It's about being able to adapt. Good writers can do it.

Remember in season 1 when they had great non-book scenes like Ned and Jon saying goodbye to each other and Robert and Cersei conversing? Clearly, the writers at some point were able to create scenes that flowed well.

You blame GRRM for the source material scenes and when they make changes to the source material. When a storyline is slow and meandering, it's GRRM's fault for pacing. When they make alterations to a storyline for pacing issues that results in things making zero sense, it's GRRM's fault for making it confusing.

How much defending do D&D need? They have been doing this for 6 years. Most long-running shows suck starting around the 5 to 6 year mark. You're still in a little denial, but it's ok. It's ok to acknowledge the show writing sucks.

[SerMixalot]

1 minute ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Whats easier and takes less time?

1) Adapting a well laid out, relatively simplistic book that is narrower in scope with less characters, locations, interweaving plots, that is well paced and self contained.

2) Adapting a huge tome that contains multiple threads, characters and locations, tells its story in a slow, unfocussed manner and has almost no resolution or momentum?

.. its number 1 isn't it. 

So once you have to start adapting number 2, your problems are increased ten fold. You can't just do what you did before, which was making minor changes, suddenly you have to make huge sweeping changes to that material, and find a way to make it work for all storylines over a multi season period. Most of your energy is on trying to basically completely rewrite everything Martin has done, making it all fit into a smaller format. Its a huge task, and its unsurprising that occasionally it doesn't always work. 

GRRM filler does have a relevance to the show, because the show has to now, instead of using what Martin wrote, find a new way of cutting out all of Martins junk, and still make it work with all the other story elements. 

Which means the show runners should either be highly talented or higher and trust the highly talented

[DMC]

2 minutes ago, SerMixalot said:

Which means the show runners should either be highly talented or higher and trust the highly talented

I don't think the showrunners should be any higher.

[Cas Stark]

Just now, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Whats easier and takes less time?

1) Adapting a well laid out, relatively simplistic book that is narrower in scope with less characters, locations, interweaving plots, that is well paced and self contained.

2) Adapting a huge tome that contains multiple threads, characters and locations, tells its story in a slow, unfocussed manner and has almost no resolution or momentum?

.. its number 1 isn't it. 

So once you have to start adapting number 2, your problems are increased ten fold. You can't just do what you did before, which was making minor changes, suddenly you have to make huge sweeping changes to that material, and find a way to make it work for all storylines over a multi season period. Most of your energy is on trying to basically completely rewrite everything Martin has done, making it all fit into a smaller format. Its a huge task, and its unsurprising that occasionally it doesn't always work. 

GRRM filler does have a relevance to the show, because the show has to now, instead of using what Martin wrote, find a new way of cutting out all of Martins junk, and still make it work with all the other story elements. 

That's kind of obvious, isn't it? I don't think anyone says that A Dance with Dragons is as easy to adapt as Game of Thrones.  Or that as Martin spread out the main characters into different regions it wasn't going to make it harder for a visual medium to adapt.  

What I think is being said, is that's all irrelevant, since all of this was known at the outset, and should have been planned for...that as the OP suggests, perhaps they need a team of writers who can wrestle with these questions of how to adapt things so it's logical...instead of having Davos now confronted with Mel, and does nothing for multiple episodes, or Brienne going to KL and never speaks to Sansa.  That all of this was EASILY PREDICTED....but the show has not made any adjustments.  They do not have more writers to help with this more complex task.  They do not even appear to have anyone whose job it is to read scripts for obvious errors. So, this is a failure on the part of the show.  It isn't as if any of what you mention was a surprise.  And, in my personal opinion the showrunners have alienated GRRM and so don't have his previous level of involvement to help them out with making the plots work.  And they suck at this.  I don't know how its even debatable that their original plots are awful, illogical, sloppily presented.

So, this is still a deflection.  And it's also in absolute contrast to what was said on this forum for the last several seasons, which was that the show was improving the books and fixing the mistakes of the books. Which is false.  The show is not fixing the mistakes of the books, they are making the same mistakes only amplified and adding in their own mistakes.

[SerMixalot]

7 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

I don't think the showrunners should be any higher.

You think I made a typo there didn't you!

[SuperMario]

8 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

That's kind of obvious, isn't it? I don't think anyone says that A Dance with Dragons is as easy to adapt as Game of Thrones.  Or that as Martin spread out the main characters into different regions it wasn't going to make it harder for a visual medium to adapt.  

What I think is being said, is that's all irrelevant, since all of this was known at the outset, and should have been planned for...that as the OP suggests, perhaps they need a team of writers who can wrestle with these questions of how to adapt things so it's logical...instead of having Davos now confronted with Mel, and does nothing for multiple episodes, or Brienne going to KL and never speaks to Sansa.  That all of this was EASILY PREDICTED....but the show has not made any adjustments.  They do not have more writers to help with this more complex task.  They do not even appear to have anyone whose job it is to read scripts for obvious errors. So, this is a failure on the part of the show.  It isn't as if any of what you mention was a surprise.  And, in my personal opinion the showrunners have alienated GRRM and so don't have his previous level of involvement to help them out with making the plots work.  And they suck at this.  I don't know how its even debatable that their original plots are awful, illogical, sloppily presented.

So, this is still a deflection.  And it's also in absolute contrast to what was said on this forum for the last several seasons, which was that the show was improving the books and fixing the mistakes of the books. Which is false.  The show is not fixing the mistakes of the books, they are making the same mistakes only amplified and adding in their own mistakes.

Great post. I have nothing else to add as that sums it up perfectly.