Theory on why the show ain't up to snuff

[Cas Stark]

Also, as someone who DOES think that Dance especially is full of filler.

That should make it to some degree easier, since it's pretty clear what is filler and what isn't.  There is no need to wrestle with adaption of extraneous events, since they're extraneous.  This is what people were expecting when they talked about the show's ability to improve on the books, but the show failed to deliver.  They threw out Martin's meandering and put in their own meandering...only at least Martin's meandering, while it meanders the fuck around, is not senseless nonsensical or illogical.

[Good Guy Garlan]

It's hard for me to disagree with the OP. I'm always gonna be in favor of more diversity and input in the writers' room, especially because a series this size and with this many characters encourages discussion and myriad interpretations, and one person can shed a light on a certain side of a character that someone else might've missed, among other things. 

And I can't in good conscience say that the show has fixed most of the problems I had with the books. They replaced Brienne's meandering around in Feast with Brienne gazing at a window. They replaced Tyrion's boring ass travelogue with Tyrion's boring ass ruling of Meereen. They replaced Arya's dull Braavos plotline with just the same amounts of dull Braavos plotline. They replaced Jaime talking to like the freaking Brackens with Jaime going to Dorne. Etc. 

Do I think it is in some way GRRM's fault? Yes, because there's only so much you can do to improve what I think it's a mediocre source material. But I think D&D could've done a much better job with it in a lot of places, so they're also to blame. 

[marsyao]

19 hours ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

 Too much of budget is spent on sets and costumes, very little of which actually pays off because nobody can see the details they put into those props.

Bingo, exactly

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

10 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

It's hard for me to disagree with the OP. I'm always gonna be in favor of more diversity and input in the writers' room, especially because a series this size and with this many characters encourages discussion and myriad interpretations, and one person can shed a light on a certain side of a character that someone else might've missed, among other things. 

And I can't in good conscience say that the show has fixed most of the problems I had with the books. They replaced Brienne's meandering around in Feast with Brienne gazing at a window. They replaced Tyrion's boring ass travelogue with Tyrion's boring ass ruling of Meereen. They replaced Arya's dull Braavos plotline with just the same amounts of dull Braavos plotline. They replaced Jaime talking to like the freaking Brackens with Jaime going to Dorne. Etc. 

Do I think it is in some way GRRM's fault? Yes, because there's only so much you can do to improve what I think it's a mediocre source material. But I think D&D could've done a much better job with it in a lot of places, so they're also to blame. 

Yes i agree with this. In fixing some of mistakes they have also created others. I'm certainly not saying the show is perfect, merely that the source material has to take some of the blame for the show.

[Winter's Cold]

The show's quality is closely connected to the quality of the books. For the most part, D&D adapted the first three books well. The issue was that AFFC and ADWD were horrible books in terms of narrative pace and climax. The result of Cersei's trial got left out of AFFC. We don't even know if Cleganebowl will happen. The battles of Winterfell and Mereen were also removed. Instead numerous pages are devoted to Brienne's futile search, Tyrion's travelogue and Dany's disastrous governance of Mereen.

We need to wait till TWOW to hopefully get resolution to many of the arcs that were started at the end of ASOS. Arya in Braavos, Bran in the North, Tyrion in Essos, Sansa in the Vale, Brienne in the Riverlands, Jaime in the Riverlands, Theon in the North are just some of the arcs that they need to provide a conclusion to. D&D likely know the end result of these arcs but they don't have the details of how exactly that ending comes about. Perhaps they were told that Arya does not become a Faceless Man and leaves Braavos, Tyrion joins Dany and heads to Westeros. That means that they have to come up with their way of making that happen. D&D don't even have the author around to help them on many of these arcs because GRRM needs to finish his next book. 

Resolving all of these arcs in a satisfying way would take more time that D&D probably have. They definitely could have done a better job in many cases but they just they don't have enough time to review their mistakes and fix them. They can't constantly rewrite the script like Martin does or miss deadlines like Martin does. Can you imagine the uproar if D&D stated that the show was going to be delayed a year to improve quality?

Adapting AFFC and ADWD faithfully is out of the question due to these issues. There's also no way that they could leave out Jon, Dany and Tyrion for a season like GRRM did. Ultimately ratings not show quality is what determines whether or not HBO makes money. If critical rating goes up but ratings go down, I doubt HBO would be very pleased with them. It would also decrease their chances of getting another high profile job in the future.

[aFeastForDragons]

4 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Please go ahead. Then post it up.

 

You have over 3000 posts on this forum and you're honestly asking that? Have you not been paying attention to anything that entire time. I know you like to constantly fight with everyone but come on wake up. There are hundreds and thousands of posts about how users here could make the show better. There are several topics on the front of the sub-forum page for crying out loud. Endless rants and book sized posts about how they could make it better. You have even quoted me on several before.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

4 minutes ago, aFeastForDragons said:

 

You have over 3000 posts on this forum and you're honestly asking that? Have you not been paying attention to anything that entire time. I know you like to constantly fight with everyone but come on wake up. There are hundreds and thousands of posts about how users here could make the show better. There are several topics on the front of the sub-forum page for crying out loud. Endless rants and book sized posts about how they could make it better. You have even quoted me on several before.

Yes and there have been many good ideas posted, some of which are better than the shows. But obviously it's very easy to write changes, a different matter to go out and write a full script for numerous seasons so everything ties up and works in conjunction with each other.

 

So when someone says that anyone here can do better they should put their money where their mouth is.

[Ser Furious]

Just want to add that D&D were in a unique situation that should have allowed them to correct so much of the pacing and filler problems of Feast and Dance. I think most of us agree that Feast and Dance turned into such a cluster because Storm was written with idea that the 5 year gap would happen. GRRM barreled head long through Storm furiously wrapping up everyone's plot so that he could put everything on ice. Once he realized the gap wasnt going to work he was really stuck because he couldnt go back and change Storm (or Clash or Game for that matter) to even everything out. 

D&D, however, had all 5 books and GRRM's outline for the endgame, and his cooperation and writing support right out of the gate. They could have done what he couldnt and created a unified story across all the seasons, adapting everything from the start knowing exactly how much ground each character had to cover. They could have done all that before a single second of film rolled or any sets were built. 

But they didnt do any of that. They ran headlong towards the RW and the rest of Storm's plot points just to fall off the same cliff that GRRM did. On top of that, all of their changes to character timelines just seems to have exacerbated the log jam. Jaime and Brienne were rushed back just to be extras in KL. Jon was rushed back to Castle Black just so he could mope and delay his election to Lord Commander while Tormund was beaten to the battle by a child on foot. Tyrion being rushed to Mereen just highlights how nothing could happen until Danny came back. It goes on and on. 

[Neffaria]

19 hours ago, SerMixalot said:

Season 6

Ep 1 D&D

Ep 2 David Hill

Ep 3 D&D

Ep 4 D&D

Ep 5 D&D

Ep 6 Bryan Cogman

Ep 7 Bryan Cogman

Ep 8 D&D

Ep 9 D&D

Ep 10 D&D

7 out of 10 episodes written by D&D, yeah, that's a problem

Didn't someone say it takes about a month to write an episode of TV?

 

 

interesting that one of the biggest character breaks or plot holes or problematic writing that Ive seen this season take place when shifting from one author to another. this seems to tell me that they had conflicted versions of who the character really was. and that's something that D&d should have caught. 

2 hours ago, aFeastForDragons said:

Most of the posters in this thread could crap out better scripts in a weekend than D & D could do in a month. They lack the experience, understanding, intelligence and foresight to write a good script and thats not going to change. How those guys got into TV I'll never understand. 

 

 

If you look at their writing credits, Im not sure why so many laud them as these fantastic writers. look at their credits. Scant TV, a couple mediocre movies, maybe a couple decent ones (depending on your tastes) but nothing huge.  So really their most acclaimed work to date (IE award winning) is this show.

2 hours ago, Apathetic Onlooker said:

With respect, the whole "if you think you can do better, do it" argument has never held up under critical scrutiny.  We're not getting paid to write the story.  Even so, the voice that points out mile-wide holes is every bit as valid.  

 

 

Agree with your point here, additionally I'd add that if someone did do it, so what? its not like D&d are going to produce it. when fans plot out their theories etc or even engage in fanfic that's what they're doing is writing a different outcome. And if you look at some of the fanfic, I'd say ichallenge accepted. there are fanfic writers who have written more satisfying plots and outcomes. 

2 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

How is GRRM to blame for the show changing the North from being loyal to the Starks to not caring, even being hostile to them?

How is GRRM to blame for Tyrion in Meereen consisting of cock jokes and drinking games?

How is GRRM to blame for the show bringing back characters like Osha and the BF for short scenes where they die?

How is GRRM to blame for the black hole of stupidity of Sansa marrying Ramsay?

How is GRRM to blame for the Arya Terminator sequence?

How is GRRM to blame for Olly's 64,000 reaction shots?

Anwswer: he's not.  

 

 

exactly. 

1 hour ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Martins writes 2 meandering, slow as a snail's chuffs novels that are borderline unadaptable, require huge rewrites just to get them into even a reasonable shape.. Just to get that structure working is a just a momentous task that its a miracle any of it works at all. 

But its fine, the Martin love is strong in this one, the blinkers are on.. I don't expect you guys to agree or understand. You probably think the books are great.

 

 

the first three books are great. the 4th and fifth are ok. we will see how the 6th turns out. similarly, the first three seasons are great, the fourth season is good, the fifth season is decent, the 6th is a mix of good and abysmal. the problems in the 4th and 5th book are not all the same problems in the 6th season. theres a correlation - to be sure - and in some instances the correlation can be said to be caused by the source material. in some instances (and in my opinion, some of the most egregious flaws of the 6th season) dont stem from the source, they stem from sloppy work, the list Cas Stark gives is a prime example of problems in the show that dont stem from the source, but rather from the choices the authors made themselves. you can argue that if the source material was awesome they wouldnt have had to deviate from the books to make the show and therefor because they had to deviate its the sources fault, but I disagree. there is more than one way to skin that cat, and their skinning method sucked. could they have found a better way? I think they could have. 

1 hour ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

There are 2 problems here that mean we will never agree.

1) You all think the show is really bad. I don't. I think some of the writing is pedestrian and unimaginative. But I'm mostly onboard with most of the decisions. I don't agree with many of the complaints on here.

2) You guys think the books are great and without problems. I disagree and think they are lacking any sort of narrative drive, pace, full of repetition and filler. 

So why even bother discussing.

 

 

I dont think the show is really bad. it has stunning moments of awesomeness, and when those moments are juxtaposed against the moments of pure suck i feel let down - and probably bitch louder than i need to. So great moments: little finger's "chaos is a ladder" speech, I thought it was awesome, probably one of my favorite moments of the whole series. It was not from the books. D&d did fantastic on it. all by themselves. Brother Ray's dialogue scene this season with the hound was great - partially taken from Septon meribald's "the broken man" speech from the books, so there are two examples of great, one where they went off on their own, and one where they adapted from the book. I can name countless other "awesome" moments from the show, just as I can name tons of shit moments from the books, and in fairness I'll name two:

1) dany saying "if I look back im lost" on almost every fucking second page of every fucking chapter in dance.

2) the two steps forward and one step back that is a lot of the travelling dynamic of feast for crows. 

1 hour ago, dmc515 said:

I don't think the showrunners should be any higher.

i litterally snorted and choked on hot coffee thanks to this...

Ultimately I dont think that george is the be all end all best writer in the universe. I do think that there are places where he could have sharpened his pencil and put his editor's hat on. 

I will say though that in terms of characterization and plot holes as in BIG HUGE literary problems, George for the most part (thus far) has run a pretty tight ship. some of his characters do annoying things, some of his set ups and pay offs take waaaaaaay too long, he has a crap understanding of numbers (800ft? really George...really???) but there aren't glaring plot holes, there aren't huge breaks in character, meanwhile in D&D land, we have the hot mess that is dorne, Arya's end arc in braavos, Jaime's erratic behavior, Tyrion's disintegration into "funny dwarf" trope. these types of goofs, of course, earn my complaints, not because i like the source material better (and admittedly I do) but because I firmly believe that the show runners  and writers could do much better because they HAVE been better. 

and that simple fact is why I bitch so much.

 

[Gannicus]

3 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Yes i agree with this. In fixing some of mistakes they have also created others. I'm certainly not saying the show is perfect, merely that the source material has to take some of the blame for the show.

So let's agree, the fact that ADWD and AFFC were far weaker than the first three books has a direct correlation to the show dropping off. We agree the material is much harder to work with.

But out of curiosity what were some of your favorite moments in ADWD and AFFC?

A major gripe of mine is that the show has cut out some of my personal favorite moments. I was very excited for season 5 and 6 thinking, wow we're going to get some great moments without so much BS filler. Instead one form of filler has been replaced by another and some of the best ASOIAF moments have been left out 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bottom line is if you have nothing to show, don't show anything at all.

We'd rather get no Tyrion, Dany, Arya, than boring Tyrion, Dany, Arya. That goes for GRRM and D&D.

[Cas Stark]

1 hour ago, Ser Furious said:

Just want to add that D&D were in a unique situation that should have allowed them to correct so much of the pacing and filler problems of Feast and Dance. I think most of us agree that Feast and Dance turned into such a cluster because Storm was written with idea that the 5 year gap would happen. GRRM barreled head long through Storm furiously wrapping up everyone's plot so that he could put everything on ice. Once he realized the gap wasnt going to work he was really stuck because he couldnt go back and change Storm (or Clash or Game for that matter) to even everything out. 

D&D, however, had all 5 books and GRRM's outline for the endgame, and his cooperation and writing support right out of the gate. They could have done what he couldnt and created a unified story across all the seasons, adapting everything from the start knowing exactly how much ground each character had to cover. They could have done all that before a single second of film rolled or any sets were built. 

But they didnt do any of that. They ran headlong towards the RW and the rest of Storm's plot points just to fall off the same cliff that GRRM did. On top of that, all of their changes to character timelines just seems to have exacerbated the log jam. Jaime and Brienne were rushed back just to be extras in KL. Jon was rushed back to Castle Black just so he could mope and delay his election to Lord Commander while Tormund was beaten to the battle by a child on foot. Tyrion being rushed to Mereen just highlights how nothing could happen until Danny came back. It goes on and on. 

I agree w/all of this, especially the bold.

[Gannicus]

My hope is if they had more eyes on it they might catch how certain directions won't work. D&D have some skill the manuevered through the first couple seasons expertly but the plot has gotten away from them as it has probably gotten away from GRRM. The difference is they have deadlines.

They need to sit-down with some other people and map out what they want to do. Someone else in that room should have said

"Look guys, this version of Dorne isn't just boring. It's a disaster." 

"Dan does it really make sense for Arya to get stabbed here, and then do a chase scene?"

"David that's interesting, but Stannis probably wouldn't burn his daughter like this"

"Guys I think people are getting pretty sick of Brienne wandering maybe we should focus elsewhere for the moment."

"Mmm, maybe we don't to show Sansa getting raped, but rather infer that he's gotten violent with her."

[The Fattest Leech]

6 hours ago, aFeastForDragons said:

Most of the posters in this thread could crap out better scripts in a weekend than D & D could do in a month. They lack the experience, understanding, intelligence and foresight to write a good script and thats not going to change. How those guys got into TV I'll never understand. 

Here is a great example of some of the "quick" ideas that posters have that could have both kept in keeping with the spirit of the books, and kept to the restrictions of a show this large. And there are other great, quick ideas posted practically everyday. Now imagine of there were a group of people that worked together to do this? I think GRRM working and planning as he does can do it alone (mostly because Elio and his editor do help after a certain point). But I think there should be a small team that works together for consistency.

Tell me you don't feel an emotional difference in just these few lines that would also avoid plotholes as well.

 

[Good Guy Garlan]

1 hour ago, Ser Furious said:

D&D, however, had all 5 books and GRRM's outline for the endgame, and his cooperation and writing support right out of the gate. They could have done what he couldnt and created a unified story across all the seasons, adapting everything from the start knowing exactly how much ground each character had to cover. They could have done all that before a single second of film rolled or any sets were built. 

To be fair, that's a problem with most shows, "Lost" probably being the worst offender in that regard, but that's just endemic to the system. When you're pitching a show you're really required to present a strong pilot and a proper outline of the season, and then if it gets approved you take it from there, step by step. It's actually rare to have the entire series mapped out in extensive detail like the way Peter Jackson and his crew did with the LotR, and he still got rejected by pretty much every studio except New Line Cinema. D&D themselves suffered a big setback when they had to reshoot the pilot. 

It really is a step by step process, mostly because it's so uncertain. Not a lot of people would go through the trouble of carefully scripting an entire series that might not make it pass the pilot. And you would think that execs would be thrilled to have someone carefully planning ahead, but that's not often the case. Execs more than anyone like to take things slow, see how the project unfolds, if it yields profits, etc. Hell, it might be counterproductive to jump the gun sometimes. Like, imagine D&D on the original pitch meeting talking about the Battle of Meereen, with two dragons, a gazillion horses, ships, catapults, magic horns, etc. HBO would be like, hold your horses, let's see how the pilot tests with audiences. 

Speaking from experience, after I pitched a show to HBO that got ultimately rejected, I'm not sure I would extensively write more than the pilot and the first couple of episodes the next time, because it's all so uncertain and on the fly. 

All that side, D&D should've had a better idea of the endgame from the beginning, at least in an abstract or general way, assuming of course GRRM was open and communicative with them from the start. 

[Cas Stark]

I don't think anyone expected them to map out every episode for every season before the show was sold.  But, once it got renewed for the 2nd season, and certainly AFTER the third season when it really took off...there is no excuse not to have done a general outline for each main character and plot from season 4 to the end.  There would always be time to expand it if they had decided to go more seasons, but whatever happened it would be time well spent.

That might have prevented totally preventable silliness like nobody in the show mentioning the Riverlands since season 3, and out of nowhere a bunch of main characters converge there this year.  Things like introducing the Northern lords for a few scenes in earlier seasons so you don't have to name drop them every other episode in the hopes the audience remembers them.  Things like having something for a popular character like Osha to do besides die.  Having someone on board who could go 'yo, those Sand Snakes are way too cheesy for this show....we need to make a change there"....

 

[Good Guy Garlan]

2 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I don't think anyone expected them to map out every episode for every season before the show was sold.  But, once it got renewed for the 2nd season, and certainly AFTER the third season when it really took off...there is no excuse not to have done a general outline for each main character and plot from season 4 to the end.  There would always be time to expand it if they had decided to go more seasons, but whatever happened it would be time well spent.

That might have prevented totally preventable silliness like nobody in the show mentioning the Riverlands since season 3, and out of nowhere a bunch of main characters converge there this year.  Things like introducing the Northern lords for a few scenes in earlier seasons so you don't have to name drop them every other episode in the hopes the audience remembers them.  Things like having something for a popular character like Osha to do besides die.  Having someone on board who could go 'yo, those Sand Snakes are way too cheesy for this show....we need to make a change there"....

 

No, I totally agree. After season 4 the show was a certified solid hit, so they really should've planned things better instead of this weird shuffle between Feast/Dance and Winds that we're getting. 

[SerMixalot]

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Here is a great example of some of the "quick" ideas that posters have that could have both kept in keeping with the spirit of the books, and kept to the restrictions of a show this large. And there are other great, quick ideas posted practically everyday. Now imagine of there were a group of people that worked together to do this? I think GRRM working and planning as he does can do it alone (mostly because Elio and his editor do help after a certain point). But I think there should be a small team that works together for consistency.

Tell me you don't feel an emotional difference in just these few lines that would also avoid plotholes as well.

 

Come on Ms. Leech, that wouldn't work, cause GRRM made AFFC and ADWD meander.

[The Fattest Leech]

6 minutes ago, SerMixalot said:

Come on Ms. Leech, that wouldn't work, cause GRRM made AFFC and ADWD meander.

Well, 8 out of 10 episodes are filler for Ep 9, and then Ep 10 is always a dash of loose ends and a pinch of cliffhanger for next season. If you look at what GoT has submitted for themselves for this year, just about every category that applies to Ep 9 battle was submitted. Someone needs to balance these fellows out. Awards are great, but not everything. 

Keep watching, kids 

[kimim]

6 hours ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

Do I think it is in some way GRRM's fault? Yes, because there's only so much you can do to improve what I think it's a mediocre source material. But I think D&D could've done a much better job with it in a lot of places, so they're also to blame. 

This. The source material leaves a lot to be desired so the show was wise to diverge. What they came up with, though, is no better than the novels. We now have a massively slow moving mess, with minimal if any connection between various settings and characters. This was true of the novels as well.

Now that I think about it, this season is exactly as bad as Dance, so I guess D&D are being faithful to the quality of the novels. Should we clap?

[The Lash]

Can you say, "We already got paid, so we don't care."