What if Rhaegar didn't take Lyanna?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

11 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

Have you ever read any other novels? I honestly wonder this about many of the people who share this view, it's not that I have an opposing viewpoint and support what Rhaegar did, it's your mind-boggling inability to see that there IS evidence to question the motivation behind their union. You choose to ignore Ned's inner monologue, her brother doesn't hold any ill will towards him, but you do? It's so ridiculous. That fat drunk idiot who killed him and despised him is far and away the worst source to base your evidence upon, yet that's what you do, he's the spurned suitor, of course he paints Rhaegar out to be a rapist because he's too proud to believe she chose this as well.. 

Of course we don't. Everyone who disagrees with you haven't read the books. Ok? Is that what you wanted to hear?

[OuttaOldtown]

4 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Of course we don't. Everyone that disagree with you haven't read the books. Ok? Is that what you wanted to hear?

Show me a quote from Ned which he shares Robert's view on Rhaegar, I'm not questioning that you read the books, I'm questioning if you've read many other books. I'm also pointing out that you're more bitter towards the character than the supposed victims own brother who was the last person to communicate with her..

[Jon's Queen Consort]

29 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

Show me a quote from Ned which he shares Robert's view on Rhaegar, I'm not questioning that you read the books, I'm questioning if you've read many other books. I'm also pointing out that you're more bitter towards the character than the supposed victims own brother who was the last person to communicate with her..

No I have not read any other books. Does this makes you feel good? Does the fact that someone disagrees with you make you feel so weird that you have to question their knowledge and their reading comprehension? 

[Nami]

2 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

people, lyanna died at 16. before she died, she already disappeared for almost two years------which means, rhaegar flirted with a 13 year old and had sex with a 14 year old and made her pregant at 15. 

look at how tyrion dealt with Sansa who was at similar age. 

GRRM already said in the book that early preganancy can put young mother in danger, which is true. 

Not to mention House Stark did not receive any news or words from Lyanna in this long time, and i do not think it is Lyanna who did not want to contact her family, especially after she heard about the deaths of her father and brother. 

This Rhaegar is irresponsible towards his wife, his young children as well as his lover lyanna. 

All your facts are wrong
first of all ,16 - 2 = 14
They spent one year in the TOJ, so she got there when she was 15
Harrenhal was the year before, so she was 14
Did they flirt in Harrenhal? Nothing indicates that in the book. Again, assumptions. It could be that he crowned her the queen of love and beauty maybe because he thought she deserved after meeting her and finding out she was TKoTLT and why she did what she did. We don't know what was his intentions.

We don't know if she was kidnapped or went on her own, but seems more likely she went because she wanted to. You don't die clentching in longing the flowers your rapist and kidnapper gave you. You don't die whispering the name of the woman you just used for one year just because you wanted a prophecy child. Doesn't.make.sense.

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

5 minutes ago, Nami said:

You don't die clentching in longing the flowers your rapist and kidnapper gave you

Three things first Stockholm's syndrome, second we don't know if ther are the same flowers we only know that they are lod and last one blue winter rose grew in WF her house where she haven't been for a long tims. So her holding the flowers could mean that she wanted to go home, missed her home and her family.

10 minutes ago, Nami said:

You don't die whispering the name of the woman you just used for one year just because you wanted a prophecy child

Why a monsters' emotions matter?

[Nami]

1 minute ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Three things first Stockholm's syndrome, second we don't know if ther are the same flowers we only know that they are lod and last one blue winter rose grew in WF her house where she haven't been for a long tims. So her holding the flowers could mean that she wanted to go home, missed her home and her family.

Why a monsters' emotions matter?

You don't even have arguments. You're just arguing for the sake of arguing, something trolls do.

Just wasted my freaking trying to debate with a troll. Thanks 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

4 minutes ago, Nami said:

You don't even have arguments. You're just arguing for the sake of arguing, something trolls do.

Just wasted my freaking trying to debate with a troll. Thanks 

Sure anyone who explains the book text without his greatestloveofalltimes glass on is a troll. I gave you three reasons why the roses aren't what you thing that it is. Well I was trying to make a discussion with a Rhaegar fanboy. My mistake I should knew better.

[Nami]

Just now, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Sure anyone who explains the book text without his greatestloveofalltimes glass on is a troll. Well I was trying to make a discussion with a Rhaegar fanboy. My mistake I should knew better.

So you have the love story version and the rapist monster version, and even though most clues point to the love story, you still don't get it. Says a lot about your reading comprehension, not someone being a "Rhaegar fanboy".
You're the one in every thread twisting facts to make Bobby Baratheon this great character.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

5 minutes ago, Nami said:

You're the one in every thread twisting facts to make Bobby Baratheon this great character.

Sure. If you cannot accept that the facts are not how you see them and other people can have other opinion.

5 minutes ago, Nami said:

So you have the love story version and the rapist monster version, and even though most clues point to the love story, you still don't get it. Says a lot about your reading comprehension, not someone being a "Rhaegar fanboy".

As I said; I gave you three options that prove that Lyanna wasn't holding the roses because she was in love.

[purple-eyes]

5 minutes ago, Nami said:

All your facts are wrong
first of all ,16 - 2 = 14
They spent one year in the TOJ, so she got there when she was 15
Harrenhal was the year before, so she was 14
Did they flirt in Harrenhal? Nothing indicates that in the book. Again, assumptions. It could be that he crowned her the queen of love and beauty maybe because he thought she deserved after meeting her and finding out she was TKoTLT and why she did what she did. We don't know what was his intentions.

We don't know if she was kidnapped or went on her own, but seems more likely she went because she wanted to. You don't die clentching in longing the flowers your rapist and kidnapper gave you. You don't die whispering the name of the woman you just used for one year just because you wanted a prophecy child. Doesn't.make.sense.

 

well, it is easy to say other people are wrong. but i spent a good part of my 6000 posts to discuss false spring timeline with other people on this website. here are the facts and conclusions:

harrenhal tourney happened in 281. not certain about exact date (thanks Grrm), but more people agree it is somewhere in the early half of the year according to the birth time of aegon and the health sotuation of Elia Martell. 

lyanna was gone in the very early of 282. just a few weeks at most after new year. according to world book. 

lyanna and jon were found in the late of 283. this is concluded by the birth dates of jon and robb and dany. 

so lyanna was 16 in the late of 283. 

then from the early 282 to late 283, approximately 2 years of gap. so lyanna was very likely 14 when she eloped with rhaegar. and i doubt rhaegar will wait for months to have sex with her. so they had sex when she was 14. 

from early 281 to late 283, approximately 3 years, so lyanna was likely 13 years old at tourney. 

what is wrong with these facts? 

you can easily claim that rhaegar did everything for love, like jaime. it is easy, sure. 

but if he loved lyanna so much that he had to abandon his family and elope, then he did not need to wait until his wife was proved to be barren to take action. how come his wife's womb situation will affect his decision about lyanna? he should have eloped way earlier than that. 

and if he loved lyanna so much he should know early pregnancy is not good for a young mother (according to GRRM). why in such hurry to knock her up and keep her away from her family? 

if he loved lyanna so much then why house statk did not receive any information from lyanna during this long time? lyanna did not want to contact her family? even after deaths of her father and brother? 

if he loved lyanna so much, why did he go ahead to fight with ned at trident? did not he know that ned will likely die if he wins? why did he order three kg to kill whoever come to find lyanba, who very likely to be her brother? if not howland, then arthur already killed ned per the order of rhaegar. isn't ned the beloved brother of lyanna? 

lyanna loved rhaegar, for sure. i agree. 

but rhaegar? a big question mark here. 

 

 

[MinotaurWarrior]

57 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

Show me a quote from Ned which he shares Robert's view on Rhaegar, I'm not questioning that you read the books, I'm questioning if you've read many other books. I'm also pointing out that you're more bitter towards the character than the supposed victims own brother who was the last person to communicate with her..

When she was dying and begging him to keep her newborn safe. Not berating him for attacking her secret or professing her love and consent. Ned doesn't know what was going on between them. And if Robert was so a terrible drunkard who failed everyone and was the unambiguous villain of the rebellion, as you like to claim, wouldn't Ned hate him? 

If you want to claim that Rhaegar and Lyanna had a consensual relationship, look to Lyanna, not Ned. It's her infatuation that matters, not Eddard's lack of seething white Knight rage. 

[Nami]

15 minutes ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

When she was dying and begging him to keep her newborn safe. Not berating him for attacking her secret or professing her love and consent. Ned doesn't know what was going on between them. And if Robert was so a terrible drunkard who failed everyone and was the unambiguous villain of the rebellion, as you like to claim, wouldn't Ned hate him? 

If you want to claim that Rhaegar and Lyanna had a consensual relationship, look to Lyanna, not Ned. It's her infatuation that matters, not Eddard's lack of seething white Knight rage. 

It's not him seething in rage that it's expected, but some of the things he does makes one think he still carries some respect and view Rhaegar is a positive light. IE, when he compares Rhaegar with Robert on the matter of frequenting brothels, he comes to the conclusion that Rhaegar didn't do that. He compares both of them and have Rhaegar in a positive light when compared to his bff RB.

That's the sort of thing in Ned's POV that makes you wonder. He did seem to think of Rhaegar with some sort of respect, something you just don't have for someone who raped your little sister. I don't think he should be tearing his hair out when thinking of Rhaegar, that's just not Ned. But thinking favorably about someone who violated your sister it's not logical.

[purple-eyes]

2 minutes ago, Nami said:

It's not him seething in rage that it's expected, but some of the things he does makes one thing he still carries some respect and view Rhaegar is a positive light. IE, when he compares Rhaegar with Robert on the matter of frequenting brothels, he comes to the conclusion that Rhaegar didn't do that. He compares both of them and have Rhaegar in a positive light when compared to his bff RB.

That's the sort of things in Ned's POV that makes you wonder. He did seem to think of Rhaegar with some sort of respect, something you just don't have for someone who raped your little sister. I don't think he should be tearing his hair out when thinking of Rhaegar, that's just not Ned. But thinking favorably about someone who violated your sister it's not logic

i am not sure about you, but imho, even lyanna eloped with rhaegar happily and willingly and loved rhaegar until she died, ned should still hate rhaegar a lot because his action not only dishonored house Stark, but also directly caused the deaths of his father, brother and sister, plus made himself shame himself and betray his wife. if Rhaegar can keep it in his pants and refuse to elope with lyanna, none of these crap will happen. 

by common sense, ned has every reason to hate rhaegar. but rhaegar is Grrm's gary stu, so Nobody badmouths him except Robert. 

 

 

[Señor de la Tormenta]

6 hours ago, Nami said:

Robert was in denial because he couldn't handle knowing that Lyanna wanted someone else other than him.
Clearly things are not what it seems. Why do you buy what he says when he didn't even talk to Lyanna on her deathbed and has a dog in this fight? 

For gods sake, robert is calling it rape because it looked like freaking rape. Your bias is the only denial I see here.

Facts for robert are

 

1 - Rhaegar proclaims he likes the little girl in a tournament. Soon both disappear without notice. 

the little girl cut all the ties with her family.

 

 

 

2- the teenager was guarded in a tower by rhaegars henchmen and Eddard had to use heavy violence and lose good people in order to release her.

 

3- the girl died as a consequence of her captivity.

 

He has no way to know she died giving birth. Rhaegar being a rapist monster is roberts pov is not bias. Its an educated guess anyone would had done.

 

A guess Eddard never denies in 16 years.

 

Whats is wrong about Robert?

 

[Señor de la Tormenta]

2 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

i am not sure about you, but imho, even lyanna eloped with rhaegar happily and willingly and loved rhaegar until she died, ned should still hate rhaegar a lot because his action not only dishonored house Stark, but also directly caused the deaths of his father, brother and sister, plus made himself shame himself and betray his wife. if Rhaegar can keep it in his pants and refuse to elope with lyanna, none of these crap will happen. 

by common sense, ned has every reason to hate rhaegar. but rhaegar is Grrm's gary stu, so Nobody badmouths him except Robert. 

 

 

Specially when neds doesnt know shit about rhaegar reasons ( all supposed with none text evidence yet)

 

All ned sees, even if a teenage lyanna agreed, is a royal prince, married, who caused a freaking war just for a whim. A war that got a lot of good men killed, including half of his family.

 

 

[MinotaurWarrior]

2 hours ago, Nami said:

It's not him not seething in rage, but some of the things he does makes one thing he still carries some respect and view Rhaegar is a positive light. IE, when he compares Rhaegar with Robert on the matter of frequenting brothels, he comes to the conclusion that Rhaegar didn't do that. He compares both of them and have Rhaegar in a positive light when compared to his bff RB.

That's the sort of things in Ned's POV that makes you wonder. He did seem to think of Rhaegar with some sort of respect, something you just don't have for someone who raped your little sister. I don't think he should be tearing his hair out when thinking of Rhaegar, that's just not Ned. But thinking favorably about someone who violated your sister it's not logical.

I'd just like to emphasize again that Ned has no way of knowing if Rhaegar raped Lyanna. He was never there when they were together, and after Ned's best friend killed Rhaegar, Ned and Lyanna only talked about the new kid of hers.

If you think his thoughts are relevant, could you please explain how Ned would definitively know the truth of the matter, so that his feelings (EDIT: 14)  years after the event are more relevant than Lyanna's feelings immediately prior to her disappearance. 

 

2 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

i am not sure about you, but imho, even lyanna eloped with rhaegar happily and willingly and loved rhaegar until she died, ned should still hate rhaegar a lot because his action not only dishonored house Stark, but also directly caused the deaths of his father, brother and sister, plus made himself shame himself and betray his wife. if Rhaegar can keep it in his pants and refuse to elope with lyanna, none of these crap will happen. 

by common sense, ned has every reason to hate rhaegar. but rhaegar is Grrm's gary stu, so Nobody badmouths him except Robert. 

I think the more apt term would by Marty Stu. And I suspect that the character has hidden depths. 

[WSmith84]

2 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

i am not sure about you, but imho, even lyanna eloped with rhaegar happily and willingly and loved rhaegar until she died, ned should still hate rhaegar a lot because his action not only dishonored house Stark, but also directly caused the deaths of his father, brother and sister, plus made himself shame himself and betray his wife. if Rhaegar can keep it in his pants and refuse to elope with lyanna, none of these crap will happen. 

by common sense, ned has every reason to hate rhaegar. but rhaegar is Grrm's gary stu, so Nobody badmouths him except Robert. 

 

 

To be fair, Ned just doesn't seem to be the kind of guy that hates the dead. If Rhaegar had lived, perhaps Ned would have much more mixed feelings about him. Ned doesn't really get angry about Aerys either, and he definitely has good reason to hate his guts.

[The Wolves]

18 minutes ago, Señor de la Tormenta said:

Specially when neds doesnt know shit about rhaegar reasons ( all supposed with none text evidence yet)

 

All ned sees, even if a teenage lyanna agreed, is a royal prince, married, who caused a freaking war just for a whim. A war that got a lot of good men killed, including half of his family.

 

 

That is not how Ned sees him, we don't get any feed on how Ned sees Rhaegar if it's negative or positive. 

People should stop projecting their feelings and ideas onto characters because it's not accurate. 

[Señor de la Tormenta]

6 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

That is not how Ned sees him, we don't get any feed on how Ned sees Rhaegar if it's negative or positive. 

People should stop projecting their feelings and ideas onto characters because it's not accurate. 

He has no reason to think in a different way with what he had seen.

[The Wolves]

Just now, Señor de la Tormenta said:

He has no reason to think in a different way with what he had seen.

How do you know? 

Rhaegar did not kill any of his family that was Aerys yet we don't see Ned expressing any hate of either man and out of everyone the Targs did wrong it was the Starks. Yet Ned ain't sitting around thinking bad thoughts about any Targ that's Robert. 

Plus Ned ain't about to hate on Jon's dad.