What are the chances Robb Stark's will gets noticed and *AFOC spoiler*

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

It was the Dragons we married (The North bent its knee and formed a union with the Targaryens.)

And the Dragons are all dead. (No they are not all dead, one of them is up at the wall. and another is across the narrow sea.)

 

message; The northern lords may well accept reunification with the IT IF a Targaryen is sitting the IT. Or if one to their liking is in the position to do so they may well throw their weight behind that Targaryen inorder to win the IT and thus reunite the Kingdom. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Jeyne is categorically not pregnant. 

[Clegane'sPup]

"MY LORDS!" he shouted, his voice booming off the rafters. "Here is what I say to these two kings!" He spat. "Renly Baratheon is nothing to me, nor Stannis neither. Why should they rule over me and mine, from some flowery seat in Highgarden or Dorne? What do they know of the Wall or the wolfswood or the barrows of the First Men? Even their gods are wrong. The Others take the Lannisters too, I've had a bellyful of them." He reached back over his shoulder and drew his immense two-handed greatsword. "Why shouldn't we rule ourselves again? It was the dragons we married, and the dragons are all dead!" He pointed at Robb with the blade. "There sits the only king I mean to bow my knee to, m'lords," he thundered. "The King in the North!"   AGOT Catelyn 11

7 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

It was the Dragons we married (The North bent its knee and formed a union with the Targaryens.)

Yes, they did.

8 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

And the Dragons are all dead. (No they are not all dead, one of them is up at the wall. and another is across the narrow sea.)

Evidently the northerners don't know that.

8 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

message; The northern lords may well accept reunification with the IT IF a Targaryen is sitting the IT. Or if one to their liking is in the position to do so they may well throw their weight behind that Targaryen inorder to win the IT and thus reunite the Kingdom.

Not sure.

[Curled Finger]

26 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

It was the Dragons we married (The North bent its knee and formed a union with the Targaryens.)

And the Dragons are all dead. (No they are not all dead, one of them is up at the wall. and another is across the narrow sea.)

message; The northern lords may well accept reunification with the IT IF a Targaryen is sitting the IT. Or if one to their liking is in the position to do so they may well throw their weight behind that Targaryen inorder to win the IT and thus reunite the Kingdom. 

Torrhen Stark bent the knee to spare the North from devastation at the hands of the dragon lords.   That was extremely noble considering all the bloodshed Torrhen's forefathers wrought upon the North and elsewhere.   So the dragons established peace and kept it for roughly 150 years.    The North remained loyal despite the Targs failing to keep the pact of ice and fire in arranging a marriage between the Lord of Winterfell and a Targ Princess.   (I realize you know all this, Eyes.  It's only for the sake of those unfamiliar with the entire backstory.)   The overall message here is that the Starks were noble and loyal where the Targs were not.   It was the Targ wars that cost the realm after their conquest.    But yes, Targ power was such that all the kingdoms eventually acquiesced to their rule and unification.     It wasn't a bad reign for anyone all in all.   

I stepped away after reading your post as my thoughts are focused on Jon and the many "outings" he faces.    I'm thinking about 3 heads of the dragon and the possibility that dragon eggs may be in Winterfell and/or The Wall.  I'm thinking about everything Tyrion could put together and reveal.    To bring it back to the OP, Robb's will paves the way for Jon to fulfill your statement where I've taken the liberty of bolding.    I really hope Jon has to publicly accept all his fates and that he is the one to unite Westeros against the Others.    Of course, GRRM will no doubt add many layers and twists to Jon's journey, but Jon clearly has the wherewithal to unite the realm again.   

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

13 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

"MY LORDS!" he shouted, his voice booming off the rafters. "Here is what I say to these two kings!" He spat. "Renly Baratheon is nothing to me, nor Stannis neither. Why should they rule over me and mine, from some flowery seat in Highgarden or Dorne? What do they know of the Wall or the wolfswood or the barrows of the First Men? Even their gods are wrong. The Others take the Lannisters too, I've had a bellyful of them." He reached back over his shoulder and drew his immense two-handed greatsword. "Why shouldn't we rule ourselves again? It was the dragons we married, and the dragons are all dead!" He pointed at Robb with the blade. "There sits the only king I mean to bow my knee to, m'lords," he thundered. "The King in the North!"   AGOT Catelyn 11

Yes, they did.

Evidently the northerners don't know that.

Not sure.

I don't think the quote has anything to do with what the Northern lords do or do not know regarding the Targaryens who remain. I think the line is one of those which upon re reads stands out and you go. "Oh!".  

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

12 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Torrhen Stark bent the knee to spare the North from devastation at the hands of the dragon lords.   That was extremely noble considering all the bloodshed Torrhen's forefathers wrought upon the North and elsewhere.   So the dragons established peace and kept it for roughly 150 years.    The North remained loyal despite the Targs failing to keep the pact of ice and fire in arranging a marriage between the Lord of Winterfell and a Targ Princess.   (I realize you know all this, Eyes.  It's only for the sake of those unfamiliar with the entire backstory.)   The overall message here is that the Starks were noble and loyal where the Targs were not.   It was the Targ wars that cost the realm after their conquest.    But yes, Targ power was such that all the kingdoms eventually acquiesced to their rule and unification.     It wasn't a bad reign for anyone all in all.   

I stepped away after reading your post as my thoughts are focused on Jon and the many "outings" he faces.    I'm thinking about 3 heads of the dragon and the possibility that dragon eggs may be in Winterfell and/or The Wall.  I'm thinking about everything Tyrion could put together and reveal.    To bring it back to the OP, Robb's will paves the way for Jon to fulfill your statement where I've taken the liberty of bolding.    I really hope Jon has to publicly accept all his fates and that he is the one to unite Westeros against the Others.    Of course, GRRM will no doubt add many layers and twists to Jon's journey, but Jon clearly has the wherewithal to unite the realm again.   

I think the will has to come into play at some point, in some way. I too think Jon's role is crucial and that he will be in a position to make peace between at least some of the regions. 

[Clegane'sPup]

8 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I think the line is one of those which upon re reads stands out and you go. "Oh!".  

Someone had to go hold the Neck and help the Tully’s against the Lannisters. The northern Lords bickered about who should lead . When GreatJon threatened to take his men and go home, Robb, the Stark in WF, said GreatJon could do that BUT "we will march back north, root you out of your keep, and hang you for an oathbreaker." Then the fight breaks out and GreatJon pulls out his sword. Robb says, "My lord father taught me that it was death to bare steel against your liege lord," Robb said, "but doubtless you only meant to cut my meat." Etc, etc

What Curled Finger’s quote brought to my mind is that Robb, the Stark in WF, considers himself the liege lord of GreatJon. The northmen are thinking that Lannister’s, not the IT, are attacking the Riverland’s because Cat (Tully) Stark snatched Tyrion. Because she is operating and so was Eddard, under false information supplied by LF that Tyrion was responsible for the attack on Bran’s life.

Where I get muddled up is that Robb was declared King of the North by Stark bannermen after Robert’s and Eddard’s death.

The quote Curled Finger and I were discussing actually begins with Greatjon shouting

"MY LORDS!" he shouted, his voice booming off the rafters. "Here is what I say to these two kings!" He spat. "Renly Baratheon is nothing to me, nor Stannis neither. Why should they rule over me and mine, from some flowery seat in Highgarden or Dorne? What do they know of the Wall or the wolfswood or the barrows of the First Men? Even their gods are wrong. The Others take the Lannisters too, I've had a bellyful of them." He reached back over his shoulder and drew his immense two-handed greatsword. "Why shouldn't we rule ourselves again? It was the dragons we married, and the dragons are all dead!" He pointed at Robb with the blade. "There sits the only king I mean to bow my knee to, m'lords," he thundered. "The King in the North!"

Karstark says, They can keep their red castle and their iron chair as well." He eased his longsword from its scabbard. "The King in the North!" he said, kneeling beside the Greatjon.

Maege Mormont says, “The King of Winter.” And the river lords were rising too, Blackwood and Bracken and Mallister, houses who had never been ruled from Winterfell, yet Catelyn watched them rise and draw their blades, bending their knees and shouting the old words that had not been heard in the realm for more than three hundred years, since Aegon the Dragon had come to make the Seven Kingdoms one … yet now were heard again, ringing from the timbers of her father's hall:

What all that stuff says to me is that the northern lords, Robb’s bannermen don’t give two shites about the IT, especially after the death of Robert because the IT is essentially under the control of the Lannisters, who are pretty much the ones responsible for Lord Eddard’s death.

Putting on my speculation cap, the northern region, according to Robert is larger than the other six combined. The northern lords, except Roose Bolton, would be okay with the idea of an independent North. Basically that is what they were until they were drawn into the game of thrones.

Robb’s will, if there was a will, if it legitimizes Jon Snow or if it in some manner passes on procession of WF to Jon actually means nothing in Westeros because the seat of power in the Seven Kingdoms is whoever sits their ass on the Iron Throne. The King of Westeros is the one who declared Roose Warden of the North and granted Ramsey legitimacy.  The northmen accepted that and threw in with Roose.The IT declared and the supporters of King Robb followed. The northern lords even attended the wedding of fArya and Ramsey at WF.

Granted there may be a plan going on between the northern lords and Stannis to oust Bolton from WF. BUT Stannis wants the IT. So does Dany. So does the Aegon kid, and one of dem Greyjoys wants it. The northerns are interested in the north.

Where is Martin going to take this story, I do not know. I said all that to repeat what I said in an earlier post in this thread… Robb’s will does not have the authority to legitimize Jon Snow. The power/authority to legitimize Jon Snow rests in KL by whoever is sitting their arse on the Iron Throne.

[YOVMO]

On ‎7‎/‎2‎/‎2016 at 6:33 AM, jontargaryan said:

Jon Snow becomes his heir as King in the North?

 

 

Do you think that's a possibility?

I have to say I agree with the people who say it is very unlikely.

 

Also, even if the Will survives and even if the will names Jon the heir it can easily be argued that it was a) made under the false assumption that Jon was the son of Eddard Stark and b ) made under the false assumption that Bran and Rickon were dead.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

40 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Where is Martin going to take this story, I do not know. I said all that to repeat what I said in an earlier post in this thread… Robb’s will does not have the authority to legitimize Jon Snow. The power/authority to legitimize Jon Snow rests in KL by whoever is sitting their arse on the Iron Throne.

Well I disagree, Robb's will has the power to legitimise Jon Snow in the eyes of anyone who wishes to say that it does. IE: Northern Lords who may well defect back to House Stark as soon as the opportunity to do so presents itself, and Riverlands lords who feel the same. All it takes is for the Boltons to be removed from power and conveniently there are only two men and  a pregnant woman that need; ahem, removing. In order to totally wipe out House Bolton. 

And with the Lannister-Tyrell power block rapidly falling to pieces in the South who's gonna stop them declaring for Independence once again. Add in Vale Lords who wanted to declare for Robb in the first place and now have a Stark of their own in their midst's. Who seems very likely to want to also take back Winterfell from the Boltons and is very unlikely to be able to gain support to be Queen in the north due to a: being a woman b: being married to a Lannister  c: being actually written out of Robb's will and d: never once having ever expressed any desire to be the one in charge, but rather just wants to go home, be with what little remains of her family and feel safe. And we know have potentially 3 major regions who will declare for Jon once the will surfaces. I think that Sansa will indeed support her brothers claim to the Northern alliance. Especially when she understands that the unification of the regions behind Jon is primarily in order to combat the far greater problem of the returning Others from the far north, the IT be damned. Add in the wildlings as subjects also and Jon is suddenly looking pretty fucking powerful. And anyone who wants to say Robb's will is meaningless can damn well go whistle. 

Power lies where men thinks it lies and if enough men think it lies in declaring for Jon then he'll have the power. 

[Clegane'sPup]

 

 

 

40 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Add in Vale Lords who wanted to declare for Robb in the first place and now have a Stark of their own in their midst's.

Sorry, I don't remember that that the Vale lords wanted to declare for Robb. There is so much information in the books I probably overlooked it. Could you or would you leave me a few breadcrumbs to follow?

[Masha]

2 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

 

Putting on my speculation cap, the northern region, according to Robert is larger than the other six combined. The northern lords, except Roose Bolton, would be okay with the idea of an independent North. Basically that is what they were until they were drawn into the game of thrones.

Robb’s will, if there was a will, if it legitimizes Jon Snow or if it in some manner passes on procession of WF to Jon actually means nothing in Westeros because the seat of power in the Seven Kingdoms is whoever sits their ass on the Iron Throne. The King of Westeros is the one who declared Roose Warden of the North and granted Ramsey legitimacy.  The northmen accepted that and threw in with Roose.The IT declared and the supporters of King Robb followed. The northern lords even attended the wedding of fArya and Ramsey at WF.

Granted there may be a plan going on between the northern lords and Stannis to oust Bolton from WF. BUT Stannis wants the IT. So does Dany. So does the Aegon kid, and one of dem Greyjoys wants it. The northerns are interested in the north.

Where is Martin going to take this story, I do not know. I said all that to repeat what I said in an earlier post in this thread… Robb’s will does not have the authority to legitimize Jon Snow. The power/authority to legitimize Jon Snow rests in KL by whoever is sitting their arse on the Iron Throne.

Robb's letter has two parts. First one is legitimizing Jon and second making him next King of the North.

First, issue of legitimization. If Robb is accepted to be the King of the North, then his rights to legitimize Jon are indisputable. 

Second issue, next King of the North. By appointing Bolton as Warder of the North, KL claims North as part of its territory, IF North acquiesces, it accepts itself as such.

Now, if Jon survives, and if GNC take Boltons down then they can use the letter to crown him as King of the North. Because they will be in open rebellion from that point onward (taking Boltons down). The letter is needed only to be accepted in the North, once Jon is crowned the King, and North is declaring itself as separate kingdom once more.

Afterward, Jon's legitimacy is irrelevant as he is declared King of the North, and it will be accepted in Westeros as long as North is a separate kingdom. And Lannisters/Cersei can scream and pout, but their decrees will mean absolutely nothing in the North nor in Westeros, UNLESS they can enforce it by military force and force subjugation of the North. 

Its like having Aegon I declare someone a rightful ruler of Dorne (ex. his friend - Orthys Baratheon), at same time as Dorne was fighting off successfully his army and dragons. It would have meant nothing in Dorne nor at Westeros.

 

Final issue, Targeryens, which is very easy. Once a Targ is on Iron Throne, they go to North. Whether or not, North is held by Boltons or KofN it doesn't matter.  Lord of Winterfell (or KotN) can either declare for Targs and bend the knee again, or fight.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

39 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

 

 

 

Sorry, I don't remember that that the Vale lords wanted to declare for Robb. There is so much information in the books I probably overlooked it. Could you or would you leave me a few breadcrumbs to follow?

Yes, rather a lot of them iirc. but i've packed my book as we are literally about to move house. I'm just about to take my kids for a riding lesson, but will try a search of ice & fire online when I can. 

[Clegane'sPup]

14 minutes ago, Masha said:

Robb's letter has two parts. First one is legitimizing Jon and second making him next King of the North.

I don't know if there was an actual will or a letter and there is actually no printed word as to what if any thing this supposed will said. I'm not trying to be contrite. If I accept the premise that the Iron Throne located in KL is the rule of Westeros then Robb's will means nada. Sure the northmen may accept Robb's words on a piece of paper.

21 minutes ago, Masha said:

If Robb is accepted to be the King of the North, then his rights to legitimize Jon are indisputable. 

There are a bunch of minor kingdoms united under one rule which become the Seven Kingdoms. The Seven Kingdoms are ruled by the person who sits the IT which is located in KL. I'm going to give up after this; when you play the game of thrones you win or you lose. Until KL is crushed and burned and the IT is tossed aside, the power/authority of the realm of Westeros resides in KL and the person who sits the IT.

Even if your above quote is correct ---- Play along with me here, Okay, Jon is King of the North, King of Winter, Jon Stark Lord of Winterfell, now what? 

 

[Masha]

26 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I don't know if there was an actual will or a letter and there is actually no printed word as to what if any thing this supposed will said. I'm not trying to be contrite. If I accept the premise that the Iron Throne located in KL is the rule of Westeros then Robb's will means nada. Sure the northmen may accept Robb's words on a piece of paper.

There are a bunch of minor kingdoms united under one rule which become the Seven Kingdoms. The Seven Kingdoms are ruled by the person who sits the IT which is located in KL. I'm going to give up after this; when you play the game of thrones you win or you lose. Until KL is crushed and burned and the IT is tossed aside, the power/authority of the realm of Westeros resides in KL and the person who sits the IT.

Even if your above quote is correct ---- Play along with me here, Okay, Jon is King of the North, King of Winter, Jon Stark Lord of Winterfell, now what? 

 

If North chooses to go to rebel and succeed, it means they refuse to acknowledge the rule of IT located in KL and proclaim themselves as independent kingdom. Considering that Bolton is the ONLY Lannister/IT supported in the North, if he is taken down, the only way that KL can enforce its rule is by force/invasion.  (I am not talking about Stannis since if he survives he is a wild card).

If IT can't suppress the separation of North, and mind you they don't have military might to do so especially since North got Coat Maitlin back, then North is an independent kingdom with its own King and everyone North and South have to acknowledge it.

Now Jon is the King of the North, and IT and Cersei are too busy to deal with fAegon, Euron and hopefully Dany soon.  By the time IT is won, most likely by Targs, the new ruler can either negotiate anew with North to either bend its knees for exchange of (armies and dragons to fight WW, rule of Starks of Winterfell in perpetuity, freedoms, etc) or they can try to invade the North and without dragons its pretty much impossible.

[Therae]

What Masha said. The whole point of the North declaring Robb KitN was that they no longer accepted the authority of the Iron Throne and recognized only one king (whose name is Stark). That being the case, if the will is still out there (and Chekov's Rifle applies here, too), whatever it says will be considered valid by whomever chooses to consider it valid. Cersei & Co. presumably don't consider it valid at all, and since the RW gave the Boltons Winterfell and the wardenship of the North (and gave the Riverlands to the Freys), from the Lannister/KL/7K point of view, the North is back under control.

But the Northern lords (excepting the Karstarks) are pretty obviously not what anyone would call content with the Boltons, particularly since they are allied with the Freys and Lannisters, nor with the re-absorption into the 7K. GNC or no, they might just rally around Jon on the strength of Robb's will, which they would still consider valid.

And Jon may need the legitimization in the will for his own sense of honor. Stannis offered him legitimacy on the premise that he is the true king of the 7K and dismissed his NW vows on the premise that he made them to the Old Gods, which according to Stannis don't count because there aren't any, and of Jon were to take Stannis' offer, he would also have to accept the LoL. Jon ultimately refused Stannis specifically because WF belongs to the Old Gods (which incidentally leads me to expect that Jon's resurrection will have to do with them, not the Red one).

So Stannis has Davos looking for Rickon (who is even less likely to reject the Old Gods, if you ask me) and Manderly's in on that, so perhaps the other discontent Northern lords are as well.

But meanwhile, Jon is dead. His NW vows are fulfilled. And that was the harder part of making him heir to WF and the North. Robb's will, if it says what most of us think it does, gives him legitimacy. This all leaves him set up to lead the North if he gets back to being alive.

(R+L, after all, still hasn't been discovered by anyone, let alone made common knowledge, so any repercussions from that are most likely further in the future than the North's more pressing need for a grown man with battle experience and Stark credentials.)

Also: hi! I've been lurking awhile, but I'm new.

[Curled Finger]

11 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Where I get muddled up is that Robb was declared King of the North by Stark bannermen after Robert’s and Eddard’s death.

What all that stuff says to me is that the northern lords, Robb’s bannermen don’t give two shites about the IT, especially after the death of Robert because the IT is essentially under the control of the Lannisters, who are pretty much the ones responsible for Lord Eddard’s death.

Putting on my speculation cap, the northern region, according to Robert is larger than the other six combined. The northern lords, except Roose Bolton, would be okay with the idea of an independent North. Basically that is what they were until they were drawn into the game of thrones.

Robb’s will, if there was a will, if it legitimizes Jon Snow or if it in some manner passes on procession of WF to Jon actually means nothing in Westeros because the seat of power in the Seven Kingdoms is whoever sits their ass on the Iron Throne. The King of Westeros is the one who declared Roose Warden of the North and granted Ramsey legitimacy.  The northmen accepted that and threw in with Roose.The IT declared and the supporters of King Robb followed. The northern lords even attended the wedding of fArya and Ramsey at WF.

Granted there may be a plan going on between the northern lords and Stannis to oust Bolton from WF. BUT Stannis wants the IT. So does Dany. So does the Aegon kid, and one of dem Greyjoys wants it. The northerns are interested in the north.

Where is Martin going to take this story, I do not know. I said all that to repeat what I said in an earlier post in this thread… Robb’s will does not have the authority to legitimize Jon Snow. The power/authority to legitimize Jon Snow rests in KL by whoever is sitting their arse on the Iron Throne.

I get it, Pup.  I think the point I've been trying to make is that the North is something of an island where the untied realm is concerned.   I don't think anyone but the Wildlings and Iron Islands have ever invaded it. (Outside of those original Andals who were verily thwarted).   It's cold and mostly left to its own devices.  The North prefers it that way.    I don't think they hate the idea of being part of the realm.   They hate the fact that their liege Lord was killed.  They're marching on Kings Landing anyway.   They've made an alliance with the lords of The Riverlands, too.    Why not declare independence and name a King to lead them?  He's got everyone on his side anyway.   There is a mania following their deep sadness.   I think at this point when Greatjon Umber names his stake in the WOT5K the lords assembled actually believe they can take the throne and rule Westeros from Winterfell.   They win battles and gain allies.  Robb surely knows he screwed up in marrying Jeyne Westerling, but he believes his own PR and wants his campaign to continue.    His word is law to these lords who have joined his cause.   This is all the permission they actually need to rebel against the crown and their appointed Warden of the North.   

For all we really know there is no will. 

I understand your position regarding this will.   The Royal Decrees originate in Kings Landing.  Ramsay is legitimized well legitimately, by the King.   I think that if Robb made a will and left instructions to his leal bannermen who are still reeling from the Red Wedding and the Bolton regime those lords and ladies will grab it up in an instant to change The North.    Gads, I hope they don't go nuts with it and march on the throne and I don't really see a set up for it.   I think the will is important regionally as it gives a type of permission to the people who want to change their rule in the North.   Exclusively.   I hope.   

[Curled Finger]

9 hours ago, Masha said:

Robb's letter has two parts. First one is legitimizing Jon and second making him next King of the North.

First, issue of legitimization. If Robb is accepted to be the King of the North, then his rights to legitimize Jon are indisputable. 

Second issue, next King of the North. By appointing Bolton as Warder of the North, KL claims North as part of its territory, IF North acquiesces, it accepts itself as such.

Now, if Jon survives, and if GNC take Boltons down then they can use the letter to crown him as King of the North. Because they will be in open rebellion from that point onward (taking Boltons down). The letter is needed only to be accepted in the North, once Jon is crowned the King, and North is declaring itself as separate kingdom once more.

Afterward, Jon's legitimacy is irrelevant as he is declared King of the North, and it will be accepted in Westeros as long as North is a separate kingdom. And Lannisters/Cersei can scream and pout, but their decrees will mean absolutely nothing in the North nor in Westeros, UNLESS they can enforce it by military force and force subjugation of the North. 

Its like having Aegon I declare someone a rightful ruler of Dorne (ex. his friend - Orthys Baratheon), at same time as Dorne was fighting off successfully his army and dragons. It would have meant nothing in Dorne nor at Westeros.

 

Final issue, Targeryens, which is very easy. Once a Targ is on Iron Throne, they go to North. Whether or not, North is held by Boltons or KofN it doesn't matter.  Lord of Winterfell (or KotN) can either declare for Targs and bend the knee again, or fight.

Gads can you just see reluctant leader Jon Snow actually having to listen to the will!   I can't imagine anyone who would be more depressed about a wonderful gesture like this.  I love it and really hope to see it.   

[Masha]

12 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Gads can you just see reluctant leader Jon Snow actually having to listen to the will!   I can't imagine anyone who would be more depressed about a wonderful gesture like this.  I love it and really hope to see it.   

At this point, I am really hoping GRRM will go different way with Jon Snow's resurrection other than more depression and even more reluctance and gloom times 5 on his character. Heck go evil, just with gusto!