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jontargaryan

What are the chances Robb Stark's will gets noticed and *AFOC spoiler*

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The chance of the document he wrote being noticed seem slim. The Freys would have had a lot of baggage to sort through after the Red Wedding and it seems safe to assume the will got burnt on a pile of rubbish or otherwise lost There were several witnesses to Robb making the will though, and it seems much more likely that they will act on it. Most discussion focuses on Maege Mormont and Galart Glover, who were on their way to the Neck at the time of the Wedding and not captured. It is also possible the Blackfish could act on Robb's will, he could have been told what Robb decided by Edmure.

 

Personally I don't think the will means Jon will become king in the North as I do not agree that Robb would have named Jon as his heir. Follow the link for an old discussion on that -Robbs-will-doesnt-really-matter

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Zero. No chance whatsoever that Robb's Will will make Jon King/Lord of the North (whether he becomes King/Lord is another question entirely).

 

When GRRM wrote Robb's will it was basically foreshadowing of his doom (just like the Mudd tombs they went past) as few if any newly married 16 year olds start worrying about not being able to produce an heir before they die.

And of course there is the fact that GRRM was planning a 5 year gap at the end of ASOS and this quote strongly suggests that Jon would not have become King in that time

Quote

This time I asked about the 5 year gap, and since Feast only covers a short period of time, was there still going to be a gap? He had a long, pretty funny answer, all about why the gap was a terrible idea and why it's now totally scrapped. He said he had opened his big mouth and mentioned the gap in so many interviews and conventions that he kept sticking with it, even after he should have stopped, realizing that it was not working. He spoke of how in King's Landing so much stuff had happened over the 5 years that he was basically writing non stop flashback scenes. Then, in the North, he had to write about how nothing had been happening... he actually imitated Jon Snow, saying "It's been a slow 5 years here... at the Wall... hanging out with Stannis... but now a bunch of stuff is about to happen!"

 

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The actual document might well be destroyed at the RW, IIRC Galbart and Maege had false documents and not the will. However knowledge of the will might come out and could be a factor if the North decides to crown Jon. There are plenty of lords alive who know of Robb's will - Maege Mormont, Galbart Glover, GreatJon Umber, Edmure Tully, Jason Mallister etc. 

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The will definitely named Jon his heir, whether or not the document survived is another question but it explains why Lyanna Mormont wrote to Stannis what she did, that is if Maege has been in contact which it appears she has.

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2 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

The will definitely named Jon his heir, whether or not the document survived is another question but it explains why Lyanna Mormont wrote to Stannis what she did, that is if Maege has been in contact which it appears she has.

Lyanna Mormont is 10 years old. Her age explains why she would be defiant to Stannis when he demanded fealty. If Maege had already been in contact one would almost expect Lyanna to be more circumspect because she would have been read into whatever Maege is planning.

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I suspect Robb did not have his will with him and that it will appear fairly soon.  Given GRRM's penchant for creating maximum chaos, it probably names Jon as his heir.  Whether that will have any effect remains to be seen, however.  Jon could turn it down (a likely prospect) or the Northern lords could ignore the declaration.  If Rickon appears I seriously doubt Jon would attempt to take it away from him.  One thing the will almost certainly does is disinherit Sansa, which would make it very difficult for Littlefinger, Harry the Heir, or anyone else to attempt to rule the North through her.

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2 hours ago, Buried Treasure said:

Lyanna Mormont is 10 years old. Her age explains why she would be defiant to Stannis when he demanded fealty. If Maege had already been in contact one would almost expect Lyanna to be more circumspect because she would have been read into whatever Maege is planning.

You have said it yourself - Lyanna is 10 years old. Besides, it's not like Stannis would be coming to give her a spank any time soon.

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3 hours ago, Buried Treasure said:

Lyanna Mormont is 10 years old. Her age explains why she would be defiant to Stannis when he demanded fealty. If Maege had already been in contact one would almost expect Lyanna to be more circumspect because she would have been read into whatever Maege is planning.

But saying "who's name is Stark" means something.  Arya, Bran, and Rickon are considered dead while Sansa is considered a Lannister.  If she was not told something about the will, why would she think there was anyone to call Stark?

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5 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

But saying "who's name is Stark" means something.  Arya, Bran, and Rickon are considered dead while Sansa is considered a Lannister.  If she was not told something about the will, why would she think there was anyone to call Stark?

I have always read the whose names is STARK bit as echoing the Brotherhood Without Banner's assertion that they serve the king, even though Robert is dead. The North remembers after all. 

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15 hours ago, Eden-Mackenzie said:

I have always read the whose names is STARK bit as echoing the Brotherhood Without Banner's assertion that they serve the king, even though Robert is dead. The North remembers after all. 

Well that doesn't sound crazy, but there is also her older sisters actions to consider.  Asha is held up at Deepwood Motte, not too far from Bear Island, but still not Bear Islands responsibility, her longships were anchored offshore so they weren't raiding Bear Island or anywhere near by for that matter.  So why take the initiative to attack like she did, and why then join Stannis after Lyannas message to him?  It could be your exactly right about Lyannas message, but after meeting with Maege the older sister knew to join up with Stannis because there is a plan in place.  Maege and Glover were gone for months at this point, if Roose could march any army up the Neck, get held up at Moat Cailin for some period, then all the way to WF, and summon everyone for the wedding, Maege could definitely have gotten just about anywhere in the North and spoken to many different people by now.

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Just now, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Well that doesn't sound crazy, but there is also her older sisters actions to consider.  Asha is held up at Deepwood Motte, not too far from Bear Island, but still not Bear Islands responsibility, her longships were anchored offshore so they weren't raiding Bear Island or anywhere near by for that matter.  So why take the initiative to attack like she did, and why then join Stannis after Lyannas message to him?  It could be your exactly right about Lyannas message, but after meeting with Maege the older sister knew to join up with Stannis because there is a plan in place.  Maege and Glover were gone for months at this point, if Roose could march any army up the Neck, get held up at Moat Cailin for some period, then all the way to WF, and summon everyone for the wedding, Maege could definitely have gotten just about anywhere in the North and spoken to many different people by now.

And yet ignored sending word to the one person it actually applies to? Seems unlikely.

 

It has been more than a year since Robb has died and nothing has came of his will, infact many Houses, however reluctantly, have sworn fealty to the Crown via the new Warden of the North. There is no continuation of Robb's Crown. Now that is not to say that Jon or someother Stark will not become King but that will be a new beginning not a continuation just like Robb's Crown was a new beginning and not a continuation of Torrhen's.

 

Surely GRRM's comments on the 5 year gap show that the will was not going to change anything in the story.

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2 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

And yet ignored sending word to the one person it actually applies to? Seems unlikely.

 

It has been more than a year since Robb has died and nothing has came of his will, infact many Houses, however reluctantly, have sworn fealty to the Crown via the new Warden of the North. There is no continuation of Robb's Crown. Now that is not to say that Jon or someother Stark will not become King but that will be a new beginning not a continuation just like Robb's Crown was a new beginning and not a continuation of Torrhen's.

 

Surely GRRM's comments on the 5 year gap show that the will was not going to change anything in the story.

Sending word to Jon about it while Stannis was there could have ended badly for Jon, and even after that while the Boltons are in power he would be very dangerous to their rule.

I think GRRM's comments about the 5 year gap not working actually favors the will playing a part, because it would be hard to justify the will just hiding for 5 whole years.

I am not sure the will is even going to be necessary, but the fact that 2 loyal lords know about it means it is not worthless.  Robbs death was foreshadowed plenty, we didn't need him writing the will for that, nor did GRRM need to specifically save 2 people who saw it from the RW.

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14 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

 

I think GRRM's comments about the 5 year gap not working actually favors the will playing a part, because it would be hard to justify the will just hiding for 5 whole years.

He said it would not work for some characters, like Cersei, who would have had so much storyline to happen in those missing 5 years while other characters, like Jon and Stannis at the Wall, did very little in those 5 years.

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I do not think Robb's will mean that much. Jon will take Winterfell with a force of wildlings and some small northern houses in Rickon's name (who will arrive at Castle Black with Ser Davos). Rickon will be caught in this skirmish and die, and Jon, as the last known surviving child of Ned Stark, will be elected Free Folk way as King in the North, having proven his leadership and battle skills. Once Robb's will comes out, it will only solidify Jon's position, but the bastard will win Winterfell seat not because of Robb's will, but because of his own skills. Robb's will is just a formality for me.

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I think the will will have a large part to play as GRRM has confirmed that Jeyne Westerling will be in theprologue to TWOW. Why? Most likely we will see her and Edmure on their way to Casterly Rock when the BWB and UnCat arrive to murder Jeyne and save Edmure. Based on GRRM's low opinion of revenge they will probably accidentally get Edmure killed and the death of Jeyne and, unknown to UnCat, Robb's heir means that when Galbart Glover shows up with Robb's will naming Jon his heir in the invent he has no legitimate issue UnCat will face the horror of her actions disinheriting her living children and handing Winterfell to Jon Snow who she hates. It makes a lot of narrative and thematic sense. 

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OK... Here's what I think is going on..

1. At Tristifer's tomb, Robb and Cat discuss whether Jeyne might be pregnant and argue over Robb wanting to name Jon as his successor. Robb believes that if he dies and Jeyne is pregnant, even if he names Jon, Jon would never try to usurp Robb's child. (This implies that Robb trusts that Jon would either act as regent or name the child his heir.) Cat is adamant that she would never support Jon. Robb leaves her in anger.

2. As they journey onward, Robb barely speaks to Cat, but he rides up and down the column talking to one or another of his various lords and officers. They are riding through marshy territory across the river from GWW (such terrain as Howland's scouts might move through easily) and sometimes Robb rides out scouting alone with Grey Wind. Unusually risky behaviour for the young king, unless he's sending messages back and forth with Howland.

3. Jason Mallister comes to meet Robb's contingent while they're still in Hag's Mire, bringing the Captain of the Myraham, who tells of Balon's death, Euron, etc. .. Robb asks the Cpt. to wait outside and Mallister will escort him to his ship after their council .. Cpt. will be rewarded.

4. Robb lays out his battle plans at this council. He is very certain of what part Howland is to play, which suggests he has been liaising with Howland's representatives (or even Howland himself ?) ... He commands that Cat be "kept safe" at Seagard for the duration of the war. This means that not only will she be safe, but unable to interfere with Robb's plans. (During the scene, Robb points out for us that the Ironborn will be squabbling over their succession, and Cat's thoughts (again, for our benefit) hark back to when she acted against Robb's orders about Jaime. Robb is avoiding either possibility.)

5. At the end of the council he says... “One more matter. Lord Balon has left chaos in his wake, we hope. I would not do the same. Yet I have no son as yet, my brothers Bran and Rickon are dead, and my sister is wed to a Lannister. I’ve thought long and hard about who might follow me. I command you now as my true and loyal lords to fix your seals to this document as witnesses to my decision.”  ... He doesn't request, but commands what Cat's role will be and that his bannermen witness his decision re: his succession.

6. Though many of us think the will went with Robb to the twins, I want to point out that the Myraham would be travelling south along the coast, from Seagard to Oldtown. He's been assured that he will be rewarded, and he displays a willing attitude to Robb. ... It would be easy for the Captain to stop at the mouth of the river that passes Riverrun (Tumblestone?), and let off a Mallister courier taking the will to Jeyne and the Blackfish.(Or even act as courier himself) It would be logical for Robb's Queen and possible heir to have possession of his will.

7. With Jeyne possibly/probably falling into Lannister hands (We'll find out in the TWoW prologue) I think the will is with the Blackfish, and his scornful attitude to Jon in his exchange with Jaime are misdirection.

So the Greatjon, Maege, Galbart Glover, Jason Mallister, Edmure and probably Raynald Westerling all knew the contents, and at least some of them would know where it was sent, if it was sent. (I'll come back to this)

8. It's quite possible that the document not only names Jon but makes reference to Robb's plan on how to release Jon from his vows. Robb seemed to be aware that there was a precedent for that, though more precedent existed for a legalized bastard to rule. I think he would take care of both matters. Robb obviously had given the whole matter a lot of thought, and was trying to satisfy all contingencies beforehand.

I have more to add, but I'll have to come back in a bit.

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Remember how cersei ripped up king Robert's decree when Ned presented it to her? If that will comes to the surface, it probably won't last long. If Jon does become king in the north, it will be because the northerners all agree to give him the title.

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On 7/2/2016 at 1:32 PM, Nevets said:

I suspect Robb did not have his will with him and that it will appear fairly soon.  Given GRRM's penchant for creating maximum chaos, it probably names Jon as his heir.  Whether that will have any effect remains to be seen, however.  Jon could turn it down (a likely prospect) or the Northern lords could ignore the declaration.  If Rickon appears I seriously doubt Jon would attempt to take it away from him.  One thing the will almost certainly does is disinherit Sansa, which would make it very difficult for Littlefinger, Harry the Heir, or anyone else to attempt to rule the North through her.

No, if Jon gets faced with Robb's will, he's not going to reject that. If Jon finds out that Rickon (or Bran, or Arya) is alive, Jon might try to apply the will as though Rickon (or Bran, or Arya) were Robb's child - ie, Rickon (or Bran, or Arya) is the heir, but someone (quite possibly Jon) is named Regent for them. If Jon is faced with the will and Sansa, he might reinstate her position in the succession.

 

 

4 hours ago, brightflame princess said:

Remember how cersei ripped up king Robert's decree when Ned presented it to her? If that will comes to the surface, it probably won't last long. If Jon does become king in the north, it will be because the northerners all agree to give him the title.

There's a difference between Cersei ripping up King Robert's decree empowering Ned over her, especially when she knew Ned was opposed to her and knew that her children weren't Robert's, and the Northerners ignoring the will, that many of their lords witnessed, of the popular Stark King in the North naming someone (probably his brother) as his heir or Regent for his child, to pick up the torch of King in the North (and the Riverlands), with all the same training that he had, and a direwolf of his own.

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On 7/4/2016 at 1:39 AM, thelittledragonthatcould said:

And yet ignored sending word to the one person it actually applies to? Seems unlikely.

 

It has been more than a year since Robb has died and nothing has came of his will, infact many Houses, however reluctantly, have sworn fealty to the Crown via the new Warden of the North. There is no continuation of Robb's Crown. Now that is not to say that Jon or someother Stark will not become King but that will be a new beginning not a continuation just like Robb's Crown was a new beginning and not a continuation of Torrhen's.

 

Surely GRRM's comments on the 5 year gap show that the will was not going to change anything in the story.

Well, timing is everything. The north may not be willing to stand behind Jon in unison if the lords of the north believe he will get slaughtered by the Boltons.

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