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Lockjaw of House Boltagon

If beauty is in the eye of the beholder...

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Beauty is not in the eye of the beholder. It's something which can be scientifically judged by simple contests of talent, bikinis, and evening wear.  

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8 hours ago, Lyin' Ned said:

Yes. But in the GRRMverse, beauty is in anyone named Targaryen ;)

Not objectivly, ;). You just have a high level of intersubjective reality.

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5 hours ago, Lost Umber said:

Beauty is not in the eye of the beholder. It's something which can be scientifically judged by simple contests of talent, bikinis, and evening wear.  

That still doesn´t make it objectivly. It simply means that the high level of intersubjective reality makes it possible to measure.  In the end, it is only about what characteristics most find attractive and assuming that it will stay that way (and has always been the same during the ages) is simply not a logical conclusion.

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Come on, I'm not a fortune teller, yet, even I could predict with great confidence that, unless Cersei dies in the prime of her youth, she will be replaced sooner or later by a younger and more beautiful queen. It could play out in various ways - Cersei could be put aside by her husband for  another queen; or, a more likely scenario, his son would get married and his wife would be new queen; also, even Cersei's own daughter might grow into another queen; and if Cersei dies before any of this happens, then she will be "cast down" posthumously, as there is bound to be another queen, and the new generation will look at her as their ideal. Whoever will be the next queen, she will be younger than Cersei, it's practically a given.

As for more beautiful... Well, look at an aging beauty, who has given birth to several children (and may be past child-bearing age), a wife who has been subject to the demands of a royal husband for long years, a woman who has either taken part in or at least watched the terrible game of thrones around her and has few illusions left - and then look at a beautiful or an ever so average teenage girl just about to get married, the apple of her father's eye, who, being an aristocrat, has never done a day's work in her life and has access to all the trappings of wealth (just like the old queen), whose health and beauty are carefully guarded by servants, who is young, full of hope and youthful vigor emanating the promise of fertility; then dress her in bridal clothes for a royal wedding - and then say which of the two women will be seen as more beautiful. Of course, it is also possible that the new queen will be an exceptional beauty to start with, just like (or more than) the old one, but it's not absolutely necessary.

Granted, it is not totally impossible that a king will have to be contented with an embarrassingly ugly wife for some political reason, but the chances of that are small. The beauty of one's wife is often associated with prestige, and beauty ideals tend to coincide with fertility features (fertility is the number one priority in a royal marriage), so it's a rather safe bet that the new queen will have at least average beauty, and the rest will be done by her youth and her position. The aging previous queen or queen mother will have no chance against  her in this respect.

The prophecy is a very simple lesson, which Cersei fails to understand. As a girl, she values her beauty and her pleasures above all and she dreams of marrying Prince Charming and spending her life as the center of attention and general admiration. Maggy tells her that her husband won't be the Prince (Charming) but the King, i.e. a realistic husband (past the Prince Charming phase) with all the ugly and disillusioning reality it implies. Her marriage won't be a bed of roses, it will not even be based on love but on political interests. If she can't accept that, and if she insists on her narrow-minded and narcissistic goals, she and the king won't have any "children" (literal or figurative) in common, so they won't have done their duty by each other and by the realm. Moreover, she won't be able to keep her youth or beauty forever. There are bound to come younger and more beautiful women, because that is the law of life and nature.  If she can't accept that, she will become like Snow White's vain and evil stepmother. If she is unable to see the wisdom behind the words of the prophecy and focus on her duties rather than on her pleasures, she will lose everything she holds dear (children), and those closest to her (the Valonqar) will abandon and betray her. 

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Because beauty is in the eye of the beholder there is no objective answer. Many people claim that Dany is the most beautiful of them all but for me she looks weird, like the majority of the Targs. For me most beautiful that Cersei are Ashara, who is dead, and Val.

14 hours ago, Prince of the North said:

Proof?

Quote

 Renly had seemed anxious to know if the girl reminded him of anyone, and when Ned had no answer but a shrug, he had seemed disappointed. The maid was Loras Tyrell’s sister Margaery, he’d confessed, but there were those who said she looked like Lyanna. “No,” Ned had told him, bemused

 

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Considering all the things Dany has gone through, she'd be entitled to be a little roughened round the edges by now. She's ridden with the Drothraki through sun and wind (not to mention saddle sores), she's been scorched by fire and dragonfire, and she's endured a late miscarriage. 

I think though, that her Targ genes make her resillient, including her beauty (quote: 'as beautiful as dragon-lords').

Of course, there's a solid theory that Cersei has Targ genes too - and also even her enemies and her brothers constantly describe her as beautiful, which says a lot.

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“Yet it seems that he was not invited on these rides.” Ned was not sure what to make of Renly, with all his friendly ways and easy smiles. A few days past, he had taken Ned aside to show him an exquisite rose gold locklet. Inside was a miniature painted in the vivid Myrish style, of a lovely young girl with doe’s eyes and a cascade of soft brown hair. Renly had seemed anxious to know if the girl reminded him of anyone, and when Ned had no answer but a shrug, he had seemed disappointed. The maid was Loras Tyrell’s sister Margaery, he’d confessed, but there were those who said she looked like Lyanna. “No,” Ned had told him, bemused. Could it be that Lord Renly, who looked so like a young Robert, had conceived a passion for a girl he fancied to be a young Lyanna? That struck him as more than passing queer.

Bolding mine. :)

Oh George, how did people not get it when you've been so on the nose since the start?

Anyway, by this point in Robert's reign anyone who knew him (and who'd know him better than his baby brother?) would know that Robert never got over Lyanna.  At this early point the Tyrells are making their play for power via Renly.  They are the (admittedly distant) second biggest creditor the crown has behind the Lannisters, who Renly already doesn't like, partly because he covets their power/influence over big brother but also mostly because he's a basically decent dude and they're a bunch of power-grabbing assholes.

So you're Renly, you know your brother well, and you want to break the courtly power of the Lannisters [and have the Tyrells fill the void].  What do you do?  Marriages are the lifeblood of political alliance in this world, so you change the marriage.  Replace Cersei LANNISTER with Margaery TYRELL.  Divorce/annulment is going to be messy.  It's going to be war with Tywin Lannister.  Anyone with half a brain knows this.  It's a big pain in the ass for Robert.  How do you entice him to do it?  Well, if you can float the idea that Margaery looks like Lyanna...

The text says Renly is "disappointed" at Ned's answer.  I think it's pretty clear that Renly was hoping Ned would/could confirm the rumor that Margaery Looks Like Lyanna.  After all, if Renly, or Loras, talks her up that way, Robert will likely roll his eyes and say "whatever" and might even see through the transparency of it all.  but if NED STARK says "yeah, Margaery looks a lot like my sister did at that age", well, that carries weight.  Especially with King Bob.  And Renly knows that, too.  It's also about this time that Renly is probably figuring out that Ned is honest to a fault and isn't into the political machination thing, and he's hoping that Margaery genuinely does resemble Lyanna because Ned isn't going to say she does (especially to Robert) unless she actually does.  But of course, if she really does, then maybe Robert will see it too, and won't need half as much convincing as Renly is set to try.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  If King Robert is the beholder, then it's Lyanna Stark  > Everybody Else

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On 7/9/2016 at 7:17 AM, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Because beauty is in the eye of the beholder there is no objective answer. Many people claim that Dany is the most beautiful of them all but for me she looks weird, like the majority of the Targs. For me most beautiful that Cersei are Ashara, who is dead, and Val.

 

Was that supposed to be proof that Renly "made it up" and that "Margary didn't look like Lyanna"?  Because that's what I asked for proof of.  The text explicitly states that "there were those who said she [Margaery] looks like Lyanna".  All the supposition and speculation that Renly was "lying" or "it was just people trying to please Renly" or "it was only to tempt Robert" is just that: theory, supposition, speculation, etc.  There's absolutely no indication of it in the text or in anything that Martin has said that I know of (i.e. canon).  Because of what the text explicitly states, I'll continue to believe that "there were those who said she [Margaery] looks like Lyanna" and that's it. 

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48 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

Was that supposed to be proof that Renly "made it up" and that "Margary didn't look like Lyanna"?  Because that's what I asked for proof of.  The text explicitly states that "there were those who said she [Margaery] looks like Lyanna".  All the supposition and speculation that Renly was "lying" or "it was just people trying to please Renly" or "it was only to tempt Robert" is just that: theory, supposition, speculation, etc.  There's absolutely no indication of it in the text or in anything that Martin has said that I know of (i.e. canon).  Because of what the text explicitly states, I'll continue to believe that "there were those who said she [Margaery] looks like Lyanna"and that's it. 

To the bolded I believe that there were people who said that she looked like Lyanna just to get in Renly's good graces while he tried to use her to seduce Robert. 

 

Margaery does not look like Lyanna. Her brother who knows how his sister looked would confirm it if she did and he didn't. Lyanna is only compared to Arya. Those people who said that she looked like Lyanna probably never saw her. We don't even know who is telling Renly that Margeary looks like Lyanna, not her fellow northernmen who would probably know if someone looked liked her or not. Robert is defiantly not saying anyone looks like Lyanna. So who is saying this? 

 

It doesn't matter because Margeary does not look like Lyanna. 

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24 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

To the bolded I believe that there were people who said that she looked like Lyanna just to get in Renly's good graces while he tried to use her to seduce Robert. 

 

Margaery does not look like Lyanna. Her brother who knows how his sister looked would confirm it if she did and he didn't. Lyanna is only compared to Arya. Those people who said that she looked like Lyanna probably never saw her. We don't even know who is telling Renly that Margeary looks like Lyanna, not her fellow northernmen who would probably know if someone looked liked her or not. Robert is defiantly not saying anyone looks like Lyanna. So who is saying this? 

 

It doesn't matter because Margeary does not look like Lyanna. 

Again, I get that this is what you think.  However, it is only your opinion.  There.is.no.canonical.proof.of.it.at.all.  The only "truth" or "proof" we have to go by is what is in the text or what the author himself says.  In this case, the text explicitly states that "there were those who said she [Margaery] looked like Lyanna" - nothing more, nothing less.  In other words, some people thought so and some people didn't.  That's it.

You are placing your own interpretation on this and that's fine.  But it's only that - your interpretation.  You keep saying Margaery doesn't look like Lyanna.  I keep asking for proof of that statement but you cannot provide anything but your own opinion and interpretation because that's simply not what the text says.  I will continue to stress that in the actual text it explicitly states that Renly confessed to Ned "there were those who said she [Maragaery] looked like Lyanna" and there's absolutely no indication or reason in the text to support that he was lying about that.  That Renly was lying or that other people were lying is all you putting an interpretation on this that is simply not supported in the text.  Maybe someday we'll get confirmation from Martin or in the actual text that your interpretation is correct but, so far, there.is.none.

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On 09/07/2016 at 11:19 AM, Julia H. said:

As for more beautiful... Well, look at an aging beauty, who has given birth to several children (and may be past child-bearing age), a wife who has been subject to the demands of a royal husband for long years, a woman who has either taken part in or at least watched the terrible game of thrones around her and has few illusions left - and then look at a beautiful or an ever so average teenage girl just about to get married, the apple of her father's eye, who, being an aristocrat, has never done a day's work in her life and has access to all the trappings of wealth (just like the old queen), whose health and beauty are carefully guarded by servants, who is young, full of hope and youthful vigor emanating the promise of fertility; then dress her in bridal clothes for a royal wedding - and then say which of the two women will be seen as more beautiful. Of course, it is also possible that the new queen will be an exceptional beauty to start with, just like (or more than) the old one, but it's not absolutely necessary.

I agree with this.

Cersei is getting older (she's in her mid to late-30s) and thusly soon "hitting the wall", meaning that she will start getting wrinkles and her body will begin to sag even more. Her hair will start greying and become thinner. As a matter of fact, since she has been shaved completely bald, the hair that will grow out again might look like a grey haystack.

Not to mention that she has given birth to three children. Pregnancy and birth do rather bad things to the body appearance-wise.

When she will have completely hit the wall, i.e. her hair will be grey and thin, her face wrinkled and her body sagging, literally any girl who is high-born enough to marry Tommen, or a girl with a powerful enough army, can be the younger and more beautiful queen.

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1 hour ago, Prince of the North said:

Again, I get that this is what you think.  However, it is only your opinion.  There.is.no.canonical.proof.of.it.at.all.  The only "truth" or "proof" we have to go by is what is in the text or what the author himself says.  In this case, the text explicitly states that "there were those who said she [Margaery] looked like Lyanna" - nothing more, nothing less.  In other words, some people thought so and some people didn't.  That's it.

You are placing your own interpretation on this and that's fine.  But it's only that - your interpretation.  You keep saying Margaery doesn't look like Lyanna.  I keep asking for proof of that statement but you cannot provide anything but your own opinion and interpretation because that's simply not what the text says.  I will continue to stress that in the actual text it explicitly states that Renly confessed to Ned "there were those who said she [Maragaery] looked like Lyanna" and there's absolutely no indication or reason in the text to support that he was lying about that.  That Renly was lying or that other people were lying is all you putting an interpretation on this that is simply not supported in the text.  Maybe someday we'll get confirmation from Martin or in the actual text that your interpretation is correct but, so far, there.is.none.

The proof in the text where Margaery doesn't look like Lyanna is when Ned tells Renly that. While Renly is shoving her picture in Ned's face asking does she look like anyone Ned knew, Ned told him no Margaery doesn't look like anyone he knows. Than when Renly tries to bring up Lyanna, Ned her brother who knows what she looks like, tells him no that she does not look like Lyanna. Ned, who is Lyanna's brother and would know if she looked like somebody(hence him telling his daughter who looks like her auntie, that she looks like her)is saying that Margaery DOES NOT look like Lyanna.

Ned saying that Margaery doesn't look like Lyanna is canon and we should take his word over who does and doesn't look like his sister instead of the others that we don't know of who said that Margaery looked like her.

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1 hour ago, The Wolves said:

The proof in the text where Margaery doesn't look like Lyanna is when Ned tells Renly that. While Renly is shoving her picture in Ned's face asking does she look like anyone Ned knew, Ned told him no Margaery doesn't look like anyone he knows. Than when Renly tries to bring up Lyanna, Ned her brother who knows what she looks like, tells him no that she does not look like Lyanna. Ned, who is Lyanna's brother and would know if she looked like somebody(hence him telling his daughter who looks like her auntie, that she looks like her)is saying that Margaery DOES NOT look like Lyanna.

Ned saying that Margaery doesn't look like Lyanna is canon and we should take his word over who does and doesn't look like his sister instead of the others that we don't know of who said that Margaery looked like her.

That's not proof that others could not have legitimately thought Margaery looked like Lyanna.  It's only proof that Ned didn't think so.  My contention is that there are those who believe Margaery looked like Lyanna.  Full stop.  Renly said so and there is no reason to believe he was lying because there is absolutely nothing in the text to support that he was lying or making it up.  I've never said one way or another that Margaery actually looks like Lyanna or not - only that there are those who believe she does.  IF your contention is that Margaery does not look like Lyanna you are going to have to provide more proof than simply Ned's opinion.  You see, whether Ned thought so or not bears no influence on whether others may have thought so.  And we know others thought so from the text!

Basically, it's all subjective.  But you made the statement that you can't support.  You are treating your opinion as fact and it's not.

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On 11/7/2016 at 6:37 PM, Prince of the North said:

Was that supposed to be proof that Renly "made it up" and that "Margary didn't look like Lyanna"?  Because that's what I asked for proof of.  The text explicitly states that "there were those who said she [Margaery] looks like Lyanna".  All the supposition and speculation that Renly was "lying" or "it was just people trying to please Renly" or "it was only to tempt Robert" is just that: theory, supposition, speculation, etc.  There's absolutely no indication of it in the text or in anything that Martin has said that I know of (i.e. canon).  Because of what the text explicitly states, I'll continue to believe that "there were those who said she [Margaery] looks like Lyanna" and that's it. 

Since Ned said that Marg doesn't look like Lyanna then yes.

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2 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Since Ned said that Marg doesn't look like Lyanna then yes.

Um...it's not really clear what you're trying to say here but that's only proof that Ned didn't think Margaery looked like Lyanna.  Nothing more.  It says absolutely nothing about the fact that there were others who said she did.  That you want to put more emphasis or weight on Ned's opinion is nothing but your own subjective interpretation/opinion.  Ned thinking Margaery doesn't look like Lyanna is also not even close to proof that Renly made the whole thing up and/or others were only saying it to appease Renly.  All of which have been stated as fact here with absolutely not one shred of proof.  

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