Jon Snow's potential love interests.

[Arya Targaryen]

15 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

If you want to ignore the books fine, but at Balticon George said that what Jon sees in Arya is a familiarity... because Arya is like his mother and Jon craves to know who his mother is and unbeknownst to him, Arya is a mini-Lyanna.

I actually don't ignore the books - I just think it's up for interpretation. And you still keep arguing on the basis of that ygritte quote, in which I find absolutly nothing that would support the idea that Jon refuses to marry from "the same village".

Whatever George said - yeah. He might have something else in his mind. He may go in a totally different direction. But do you really think that if he still planns to end the books with Jon/Arya, he would just admit it, when asked about it?

 

ETA: I just realized what you were writing. At Balticon, did George really confirm R+L, saying that Arya is like his mother ???

 

15 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Jon is starting to see himself more a wildling/First Man right before he is stabbed. Yes, he takes what the wildling says as important information because he feels his identity is tied to it somehow.

This is important to Jon because one thing he craves is knowing his identity, who his mother is, etc. He even questions is Ned is really his father at one point earlier.

To play the devil's advocate here, according to your logic, the moment he finds out he is Rhaegars son, and learns his true identity - he will suddenly be OK with any kind of incest, because he is a Targ - that's his identity (for the record, I don't think he will. His identity is not of a Targ. Maybe it's more of a wildling - but I can't help but have a feeling that old Kings of Winter had this sort of mindset - independent, free to do whatever they like, get shit done and stuff. But maybe I'm wrong. Deep in his heart he is a Stark. Not a NW brother, not a Targ, not a Wildling. A Stark.)

[OuttaOldtown]

22 minutes ago, DutchArya said:

Like Ned Stark's sick and disgusting parents. I mean. Totally, yuck!

We have no idea if that was arranged or due to love, I gather based on their society it was arranged. We accept the Starks have married cousins before, what I don't understand is fans suddenly desiring incestuous relationships. But my bigger issue is that you totally discount that they were raised to believe they are half brother/sister. and that when they think of each other its in a totally unromantic way, produce one quote which Jon thinks of Arya in a way similar to the way he think of Val. Also, there's only two books left and Arya & Jon are separated by a sea, apocalyptic shit is about to go down in Westeros, when do you see the time to brew this Jon/Arya romance to develop? 

[The Fattest Leech]

2 minutes ago, Arya Targaryen said:

I actually don't ignore the books - I just think it's up for interpretation. And you still keep arguing on the basis of that ygritte quote, in which I find absolutly nothing that would support the idea that Jon refuses to marry from "the same village".

Whatever George said - yeah. He might have something else in his mind. He may go in a totally different direction. But do you really think that if he still planns to end the books with Jon/Arya, he would just admit it, when asked about it?

To play the devil's advocate here, according to your logic, the moment he finds out he is Rhaegars son, and learns his true identity - he will suddenly be OK with any kind of incest, because he is a Targ - that's his identity (for the record, I don't think he will. His identity is not of a Targ. Maybe it's more of a wildling - but I can't help but have a feeling that old Kings of Winter had this sort of mindset - independent, free to do whatever they like, get shit done and stuff. But maybe I'm wrong. Deep in his heart he is a Stark. Not a NW brother, not a Targ, not a Wildling. A Stark.)

In this case, yes, George was telling the truth because it was in response to being asked about that outline where he said that he was "making shit up" to fill in the page so he had something to turn in to the publisher. These were back in the days when George still had to follow normal author guidelines to get anything published.

I was there with a huge Arya/Jon shipper and she started asking about this and that is also when George said what Jon saw in Ygritte was a familiarity, he hadn't left Winterfell much until now, and that if he could go back and revise old books he would because he wishes somethings that seem like foreshadowing are not, and that he wishes somethings now had better foreshadowing then. This was not a huge panel room like you see at Con's with people cracking jokes. It was George and 8 of us in a private, small room.

 

That is literally the opposite if anything I have said about Jon and learning his blood family history at all. I have only said the complete opposite that Jon will continue to see his Stark family as his true family. Rhaegar is actually half First Men blood, and with Lyanna being full First Men blood, Jon is actually 3/4 First Men blood, so he identifies with that way of life more so than the Targ 1/4 piece. He is ice.

Rhaegar never married a girl from his own and neither did Ned and incest is not a natural blood trait. It is learned. It was DutchArya that was inclined to say that if Jon goes the incest route then it could be because of his Targ side.

Jon sees himself as a wildling, he says so, but wildlings and Starks are both First Men, as Ygritte also taught him, and that is what Jon is really identifying with. That fact that the wildlings are "people" just like him that deserve protection as well.

[The Fattest Leech]

13 minutes ago, Arya Targaryen said:

I actually don't ignore the books - I just think it's up for interpretation. And you still keep arguing on the basis of that ygritte quote, in which I find absolutly nothing that would support the idea that Jon refuses to marry from "the same village".

Whatever George said - yeah. He might have something else in his mind. He may go in a totally different direction. But do you really think that if he still planns to end the books with Jon/Arya, he would just admit it, when asked about it?

 

ETA: I just realized what you were writing. At Balticon, did George really confirm R+L, saying that Arya is like his mother ???

 

To play the devil's advocate here, according to your logic, the moment he finds out he is Rhaegars son, and learns his true identity - he will suddenly be OK with any kind of incest, because he is a Targ - that's his identity (for the record, I don't think he will. His identity is not of a Targ. Maybe it's more of a wildling - but I can't help but have a feeling that old Kings of Winter had this sort of mindset - independent, free to do whatever they like, get shit done and stuff. But maybe I'm wrong. Deep in his heart he is a Stark. Not a NW brother, not a Targ, not a Wildling. A Stark.)

More that Arya is like his family. Oh no, George knows not to confirm that out loud in such tight quarters

[TheDemonicStark]

2 hours ago, DutchArya said:

GRRM has written very subtle changes in both those characters. If you're going to ignore them because you're against the "idea" - then that's fine. I quite like it and if it turns out to be wrong, then I'm fine with that too. 

They are already seeing eachother differently. When they meet again, it will be like meeting new people and they would have to acclimate in a completely new way. They have both been changed from their individual experiences. Arya and her involvement with a Death cult and Jon, you know, being actually dead and all. And if the situation required it, a political arrangement for example, then what needs to be done will happen and the repercussion would flow from there in the writing.  

You already see Jon showing complete in difference to the idea of "bedding your sister" as Ygritte put it. That was from a scene in a book that was released about 10 years after he created these characters. You see Arya wondering if Jon would even know her anymore? Jon thinks the same thing in the same book about Arya.

 

Holy shit, that was grasping for straws.

[Arya Targaryen]

2 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Rhaegar never married a girl from his own and neither did Ned and incest is not a natural blood trait. It is learned.

(This is my last reply, as it is getting late here, and we are going in circles. )

But both Rhaegar's father and Ned's father did. 

Incest is not learned. It is a taboo in most human cultures - so deep that everybody (mostly) keeps themself to it. If you grow up in a culture that actually allows it, you will feel it is just as OK as anything else- and that doesn't mean you must get on with your sibling. Only that there is a chance, because it is not forbidden. Even if you learn later on that incest is wrong, it probably won't change your first instict on the matter - only some shocking event may cause such drastic change. 

The same might happen with Jon. He grew up knowing that cousin marriage is perfectly OK. Even if he learns that there is a culture (the wildlings) who are against it, and he understands the reasons, that doesn't mean that his whole mindset and primary insticts will suddenly change. No drastic event happened to him that would support this idea and make him cause a change in his mindset. No inner instinct will prevent him from falling in love with his cousin. That doesn't mean that he definitely will fall in love her. Only that his upbringing allows it, and Ygritte won't change that.

 

3 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I was there with a huge Arya/Jon shipper...

I know, I was included in that private thread  I've read the whole thing through twice, but it was some time ago, I can't remember everything. But I know I had mixed feelings about it. I actually gave up on Jon/Arya since George decided not to do the 5-year gap, so I wasn't that surprised. But I'm not fully convinced either, and it is what I found surprising. There was something about the wording of some stuff, like being too vague somewhere - I can't remember, and I'm too tired to look it up.

 

 

[OuttaOldtown]

“And Arya… he missed her even more than Robb, skinny little thing that she was, all scraped knees and tangled hair and torn clothes, so fierce and willful. Arya never seemed to fit, no more than he had… yet she could always make Jon smile. He would give anything to be with her now, to muss up her hair once more and watch her make a face, to hear her finish a sentence with him.” 

Oh yeah, that that's hot, dripping with sexual desire and lust! Get those two a room!!

[a black swan]

13 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

 

Oh yeah, that that's hot, dripping with sexual desire and lust! Get those two a room!!

Yeah because that's exactly what people are describing. Thank you for your contribution. 

[a black swan]

15 minutes ago, TheDemonicStark said:

Holy shit, that was grasping for straws.

Like Jon marrying Jeyne Poole. lol bye

[TheDemonicStark]

3 minutes ago, DutchArya said:

Like Jon marrying Jeyne Poole. lol bye

Touché.

[The Fattest Leech]

@Arya Targaryen hey! I didn't know, I guess I forgot, sorry. I have a copy of it if you want me to resend it to you? Just let me know. 

[RenlyIsNotRight]

Idk if this is still really a thing seeing as I'm not on here nearly as frequently as I used to be but back around the time I joined the forum the whole Jon/Val ship was hugely popular. Personally I always saw Val as more a temptation for Jon to break his vows that I don't believe he'll give into ultimately, but who knows.

And if Jon/Sansa actually ends up becoming a thing I will puke my guts out.

[Arya Targaryen]

1 minute ago, The Fattest Leech said:

@Arya Targaryen hey! I didn't know, I guess I forgot, sorry. I have a copy of it if you want me to resend it to you? Just let me know. 

No prob, I still have it, it's interesting stuff, I won't delete it for now... Maybe I wait until the last book comes out and re-read it then  We can get back to discussing it in 10 year's time, hopefully, lol.

[The Fattest Leech]

Just now, Arya Targaryen said:

No prob, I still have it, it's interesting stuff, I won't delete it for now... Maybe I wait until the last book comes out and re-read it then  We can get back to discussing it in 10 year's time, hopefully, lol.

Agreed  

[The Arthur Smith]

I can't believe threads like Jon shipping up with incest pairs are becoming popular! 

[Darkstream]

16 minutes ago, DutchArya said:

Yeah because that exactly what people are describing. Thank you for your contribution. 

So what are people describing? No one seems willing to provide these alleged quotes from the text. Please do contribute, instead of ignoring anyone who asks you to back up your assertions with actual text. It's a wonder why people have to guess what you guys are talking about.

[a black swan]

3 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

So what are people describing? No one seems willing to provide these alleged quotes from the text. Please do contribute, instead of ignoring anyone who asks you to back up your assertions with actual text. It's a wonder why people have to guess what you guys are talking about.

I find it amusing you think this is the first time this topic has been discussed. Girl, where have you been?

How have I ignored anyone? When I made a point, I quoted actual text in this very thread. 

Ice Turtle put together a very detailed compiling of quotes from the books producing some great discussion:

 

[a black swan]

GRRM explained an interesting point about resurrection and the effects of the last thought/mission/intention a person has:

"My characters who come back from death are worse for wear. In some ways, they’re not even the same characters anymore. The body may be moving, but some aspect of the spirit is changed or transformed, and they’ve lost something. One of the characters who has come back repeatedly from death is Beric Dondarrion, The Lightning Lord. Each time he’s revived he loses a little more of himself. He was sent on a mission before his first death. He was sent on a mission to do something, and it’s like, that’s what he’s clinging to. He’s forgetting other things, he’s forgetting who he is, or where he lived. He’s forgotten the woman who he was once supposed to marry. Bits of his humanity are lost every time he comes back from death; he remembers that mission. His flesh is falling away from him, but this one thing, this purpose that he had is part of what’s animating him and bringing him back to death. I think you see echoes of that with some of the other characters who have come back from death."

 

Not only did Jon make plans to rescue his sister, after trying and failing with Mance, but he also thinks of her before he dies.

If grrm does go with a Stark match, Arya has been his constant throughout. Jon's last thought before dying was GRRM's favourite line in the books, something Jon told Arya the last time they were together, something linked with Needle. 

[Darkstream]

35 minutes ago, DutchArya said:

I find it amusing you think this is the first time this topic has been discussed. Girl, where have you been?

Apparently, where I've been, is hanging out in the wrong bathroom. All this time I've been using the men's room.

41 minutes ago, DutchArya said:

How have I ignored anyone? When I made a point, I quoted actual text in this very thread. 

Ice Turtle put together a very detailed compiling of quotes from the books producing some great discussion:

 

Sorry, I didn't mean to single you out specifically as ignoring anyone, but what I find amusing is that you think you've provided any text to support Jon/Arya. I haven't seen any on this thread, but I will check out the link you've provided later tonight when I have more time. 

[Meera of Tarth]

Jon and Arya might be cousins, but they have been raised as half-siblings; and they particularly consider themselves siblings; because they have a strong bond.

There are a lot of lines from the books that can be considered foreshadowing, so I can understand there's room for debate for those who ship Jon and Arya (and even those who don't, like myself). Nevertheless, when I read the books I never considered there was more than a strong sibling bond between them, but I could be wrong.

But if anything had to happen, it wouldn't be easier to write to convince those who have seen them as siblings who miss eachother and make it realistic.