Dany+Tyrion=Love?

[Lord Friendzone]

35 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Previosuly Knowing they are family would prevent them to fall in love in fact. It's the fact that they don't know that makes them candidates to be paired up (even if I totally disagree that they are made for each other).

A man would not fall for a woman she finds attarctive or likes if ke knows she is his aunt (he would quickly change his mind after knowing this) and same with a woman like Dany, even in this case she knows her family has been incestuous many times. So, at least on Jon's part, he would just not fall because they are family, and I'd say Dany would find it less appealing 'cause she is a more modern Targaryen.

It happens many times in fiction. Once some people know they are related, you don't find that person appealing to you at all. On the contrary. And I bet knowing they are family will create lots of drama and angst between them in season 8.

I am not so sure. Jon is certainly not against banging who is to him his sister Arya and Dany is very much used to this tradition. Not gonna say yes or no, but it's not so clear cut.

George original idea was for Jon and Arya being conflicted by their own feelings for each other until the parentage reveal. While original outline is a supporting evidence, not a canon so far, yet George had these ideas.

Since Jon and Dany might develop strong feelings for each other, I don't think Jon or Dany would break up with each other over this, in this story we have plenty of incest, and some bad ones like Jaime and Cersei. But these two if are in love with each other, do have strong feelings for on another. As Jaime said we don't get to choose who we love.

[Meera of Tarth]

1 minute ago, Lord Friendzone said:

I am not so sure. Jon is certainly not against banging who is to him his sister Arya and Dany is very much used to this tradition. Not gonna say yes or no, but it's not so clear cut.

George original idea was for Jon and Arya being conflicted by their own feelings for each other until the parentage reveal. While original outline is a supporting evidence, not a canon so far, yet George had these ideas.

Since Jon and Dany might develop strong feelings for each other, I don't think Jon or Dany would break up with each other over this, in this story we have plenty of incest, and some bad ones like Jaime and Cersei. But these two if are in love with each other, do have strong feelings for on another. As Jaime said we don't get to choose who we love.

while I think that they could even break up after the reveal, I was addressing that they woylf not fall for eachother if, at the same time, they know who they are.

And Jon in the books (anf show) never says he is not against banging Arya or Sansa.

[Lord Friendzone]

3 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

while I think that they could even break up after the reveal, I was addressing that they woylf not fall for eachother if, at the same time, they know who they are.

And Jon in the books (anf show) never says he is not against banging Arya or Sansa.

I am telling you that it might be so clear cut that these would not fall for one another even with knowing the fact that they're related. 

Jon never said yes or no but his conversation with Ygritte was bizzare. His Targ genes maybe?

As for break up or not? I doubt it, Jon will for sure will be conflicted but with the White Walkers, so many death and if she gets pregnant. I don't see him turning her back on her. He might go with his heart and just ignore that they're related. Ned not being his father and being legit Targ will be much bigger issues for him.

[Meera of Tarth]

20 hours ago, Cron said:

My comment is NOT based on Victorian era gender bias, it is based on modern scientific studies (and NOT ones conducted by me).

Now, you may disagree with those studies, but the fact that they seem consistent with empirical evidence I have encountered in my life does NOT mean that my view is Victorian era gender bias.

 

Cron,  @sweetsunray was referring to your statements, and it's nothing personal. I for one thought the same when I read them. There is no need for studies to take women's opinion into account (and in fact other studies suggest the contrary as she pointed out). But what I'm saying is that you should listen to women on that matter

We are saying that men are not by far more into "attractiveness" than women or that "Tyrion will fall for Dany because he is a man" is an anachronistic view; that's what socieity used to think (and sometimes even thinks nowadays!) but it's not true at all.

Women, as men, are equally sexual beings, and we all experience sexual attraction, men do not experience it with more intensity than women; maybe men talk about it more openly than women because society still have stigma about it and it might be why some people think this, but it's not the case at all!  Also, both men and women can also be attracted to people's psyches in equal terms..

[Meera of Tarth]

I am very busy now so I will not br able to start a debate on it bit what I said is the truth as women are as into atttactiveness as men are which was sweetsunray's view on it. Sorry I wanted to add this as a final paragraph but it doesn't let me edit my previous post.

[Newstar]

For all the talk about how women are supposedly less superficial than men, I don't think there's much precedent in ASOIAF for a beautiful girl being happily paired by choice with an ugly dude, other than Tyrion/Tysha. Jorah/Lynesse, I guess, although that didn't last long.

Attractive women in ASOIAF given the choice--as opposed to marriages for duty like Cat/Ned--tend to gravitate towards attractive men, and the prettier they are, the prettier the men they like tend to be: Arianne/Arys (she was also attracted to Darkstar), Lyanna/Rhaegar, Cersei/Jaime (she was also attracted to Rhaegar), Asha/Qarl, possibly Ashara/Brandon, etc. I don't think Dany's any exception. If Jorah didn't do it for her, I doubt Tyrion ever would.

[Cron]

3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

 

This is a lie. I said nothing about you.

"Could you please refrain from making gender biased claims that date back to the Victorian era."

I said something about the claims you make, not about you. I am allowed to criticise claims, posts, and ideas. Claims, posts and ideas are not people.

MODERN studies actually disagree with your claim. Only studies during a cultural time that predates the sexual liberisation of women claim such conclusions as yours do. Modern studies will do no more than speculate and include the possibility that a cultural bias is at play.

Women and men are proven to "lie" about libido, experience, attraction and they lie to avoid being shamed, even to this very day. Men exaggerate and are culturally expected to brag. Women are publically shamed or at the very least fear being shamed if they reveal to strangers in a non intimate situation how sexually active they actually are and just how much or often they might get turned on for pure primal sexual reasons. Both genders lie, and have social and cultural reasons to lie, even now, and women will prefer to zip up on the subject. And the root of it is the Victorian era, where women were supposed to be not interested in sex at all and have no libido whatsoever and shamed if they even showed interest in sex, while hedonistic men were semi-heroes as dandies. This is in fact not even an issue prior to the Victorian era. It is this period that George writes about, a period where sex and libido is not something to be ashamed about, for either men or women, and he correctly portrays this with Arianne, Asha, or even Sansa and Arya who are confronted with people seeking or having sex. 

Your own life experience is by definition biased evidence. You have proven several times that you take your belief as fact, period, and only take into account self-reported confessions that fit your belief, while you completely ignore everything that does not fit into it. That alone makes it no more than a belief or opinion, but not fact.

Now who here is trying to make it personal? Regardless of what I may or may not report, the solution to not get your posts deleted is by refraining to go off topic on a tangent of your own very personal beliefs about gender differences, and general claims without much back-up, knowing very well that it's off topic. And I openly asked you to refrain from doing so.

Again, I did not verbally attack you whatsoever.

(a) I disagree with many things you wrote, definitely including your denial that you have attacked me. Uhhhh...yeah, you HAVE, just like you did again in this post (Newsflash:  Saying I lied is fundamentally the same thing as calling me a liar, which is an attack on me.)

(b) I will not waste my time typing a lengthy reply to everything you just wrote, when for all I know this entire discussion could be deleted at any minute, quite possibly as a result of you reporting me for disagreeing with your opinions (by the way, nothing you wrote allayed my concern about that, if anything your most recent post amplified my concern, which makes it even less likely I will waste my time writing long posts that could be deleted before you even read them).

(c)  You seem like a person of above-average intelligence.  I would enjoy discussing these things with you in a polite way if I believed I was not wasting my time writing stuff that's just about to be deleted, but I really don't see how that's possible.  Frankly, I don't think  we're a good match for PM discussions, and I really don't know of any other way to discuss this stuff which is arguably veering so off topic. and which, for all I know, you are going to report as being "off topic" even though YOU YOURSELF are participating in the conversation. Oh well.

(d)  A parting point to ponder.  IF you think males and females are alike in all ways, and that merely pointing out a legitimate difference is a form of gender bias OR is an indication the speaker believes that one of them (male or female) is, overall, BETTER than the other, then I think you are VERY wrong.  In my opinion, the average man is better than the average woman at some things (e.g., physical strength), AND the average woman is better than the average man at other things, and as the French say, "Vive le difference!!!!!!!"  (At least, I think that 's what the French say, cuz my French is not very good)

[Le Cygne]

2 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

We are saying that men are not by far more into "attractiveness" than women or that "Tyrion will fall for Dany because he is a man" is an anachronistic view; that's what socieity used to think (and sometimes even thinks nowadays!) but it's not true at all.

Women, as men, are equally sexual beings, and we all experience sexual attraction, men do not experience it with more intensity than women; maybe men talk about it more openly than women because society still have stigma about it and it might be why some people think this, but it's not the case at all!  Also, both men and women can also be attracted to people's psyches in equal terms..

Excellent points. And good point about societal forces impacting the truth of the matter.

The topic at hand, I think the OP may have picked up on something, maybe it's a plot point.

[Le Cygne]

On 7/3/2017 at 8:53 AM, A Ghost of Someone said:

I wonder if Sweet Robin will show up this year. All of his army, most of it is in in Winterfell. He needs Lyanna Mormont to marry him and let her take over.

Oh, that would be great! SweetLyanna, getting things done.

[Cron]

4 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

They do have some snippets on this as to where in the general idea is. They're spending the whole season to set something up, which I am not gonna go to much of detail because you probably know or simply not to spoilt it for others.

Good stuff, I read every word of your post, with interest.

No need to worry about spoilers with me, I welcome any and all spoilers.  If you've got info and are willing to share, I'd say either do it as Hidden Content or PM me, as I WOULD be interested to hear whatever you know.

4 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

First two are commonly interpretated as Drogo and Hizdar, her first two marriages. One to bed, one to dread and one to love.

She were supposed to give Drogo a child, she was basically a slave to a certain point.

With Hizdar she hated him and dreading their marriage for political reasons.

Third one is probably going to be out of love, what she wants, whoever she will choose.

Not sure where you getting that Daario is ahead of Jon in this or that he is already a third mount where nothing points to it.

Uh, to "mount" someone is a euphemism for sex.   Daario is ahead of Jon (a the third "mount" b/c he's had sex with Dany, and Jon has not.  In fact, unless I'm forgetting someone else Dany had sex with, Daario IS the third and final "mount."

4 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

It seems something they might want to play with. She did get her period in ADWD but she had sex with Daario, yet not getting pregnant. It might require someone very specific. But this just my opinion but it sort of makes sense.

Ned's parents were cousins, we can find even uncle/niece marriage in the Stark family tree, Tywin and Joanna first cousins. Incest but tolerable to many but not on the the level of Targaryen - who were special in this and had their privileges also because of dragons. They forced anything they wanted. Jon and Dany while they do share more genetics than let's say Jon and Arya or Sansa, still it's something Westerosi society might accept, not to mention Dany do have dragons.

I wouldn't say that incest is portrayed as a bad thing. Many Targaryen Kings and Queens were good and born out of it. Targaryens/Valyrians are special like sort of equivalent of Elves from Tolkien. They have a different rules, standards and our genetics really do not apply here.

Jon was always going to end in an incestous relationship, George's original idea were Jon and Arya. So, he very much intended for incest to be a big part of Jon's story.

Oh, really? You taught me some stuff about Stark history, thanks. But I still think incest is generally portrayed as bad in GoT/ASOIAF, it seems clearly "taboo," especially in Westeros.  My goodness, look at Jaime and Cersei's relationship.  It seems very clear to me in many places that their relationship is VERY taboo in Westeros

4 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Daario is not a fool but also not something Dany would ever be safe with, emotionally connected and someone she would be willing to rule with. Retiring somewhere is not a thing for her, she'll either rule or die. We know she doesn't want Daario there and in fact she was not even sure if she loved him. She needed someone and it was Daario. Now she's fully focused on rulling and not expecting any love, just a political marriage. So if she falls in love, it would be a surprise for her.

So, Daario while he gave some good advices, but it would turn Dany into a person we might not like to see. He sees her as Mother of Dragons, the Conqueror someone he can love and profit from. Even if it means being her consort but that's not what she wants or is in hear heart looking for. These are just our views but based on what we know, it seems there is a certain someone for her.

Good stuff, but anything further I say on this last part of your post would just be me repeating myself I think.  Guess we'll find out in the end.

[Newstar]

11 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Excellent points. And good point about societal forces impacting the truth of the matter.

The topic at hand, I think the OP may have picked up on something, maybe it's a plot point.

I kind of question what the narrative point of having Tyrion fall in love with Dany would be, unless Tyrion's bitterness at his love for Dany being unrequited leads him to turn on her. Always a possibility, I guess. 

[Cron]

2 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Cron,  @sweetsunray was referring to your statements, and it's nothing personal. I for one thought the same when I read them. There is no need for studies to take women's opinion into account (and in fact other studies suggest the contrary as she pointed out). But what I'm saying is that you should listen to women on that matter

We are saying that men are not by far more into "attractiveness" than women or that "Tyrion will fall for Dany because he is a man" is an anachronistic view; that's what socieity used to think (and sometimes even thinks nowadays!) but it's not true at all.

Women, as men, are equally sexual beings, and we all experience sexual attraction, men do not experience it with more intensity than women; maybe men talk about it more openly than women because society still have stigma about it and it might be why some people think this, but it's not the case at all!  Also, both men and women can also be attracted to people's psyches in equal terms..

I read your entire post with interest, an open mind, and great respect for your views.

However, as you may know from my posts in this thread, above, I am concerned it will be deleted at any minute for being off topic, quite possibly b/c sweetsunray herself may report it, even though she is a participant, and I will not waste my time writing long replies to posts that could be deleted at any minute.

If you want to PM me about this, I would discuss it with you, but if not, that's fine, of course, too. 

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Cron,  @sweetsunray was referring to your statements, and it's nothing personal. I for one thought the same when I read them. There is no need for studies to take women's opinion into account (and in fact other studies suggest the contrary as she pointed out). But what I'm saying is that you should listen to women on that matter

We are saying that men are not by far more into "attractiveness" than women or that "Tyrion will fall for Dany because he is a man" is an anachronistic view; that's what socieity used to think (and sometimes even thinks nowadays!) but it's not true at all.

Women, as men, are equally sexual beings, and we all experience sexual attraction, men do not experience it with more intensity than women; maybe men talk about it more openly than women because society still have stigma about it and it might be why some people think this, but it's not the case at all!  Also, both men and women can also be attracted to people's psyches in equal terms..

Well, I'd go further... to bring it on topic: listen to the women in the books.

Arya's miffed about the fact that she had to walk to the dais alongside fat Tommen, and how handsome Joffrey is. Though she soon admits Joffrey's a little shit by the end of the same chapter, there are several more references that Arya's affected by handsome men or boys: Gendry, Jaquen. She first disbelieves that Beric is Beric because he was supposed to be handsome and the scarecrow standing there isn't handsome at all. Arya's miffed with Jaquen when she discovers he joined the Lannister troops, while women swoon for him. She thinks of him as the handsome prisoner. 

Arianne falls for handsome men, dangerously handsome men. She's starting to resist her instinctual attraction, but that is a cognitive controlling response to her instinctual urge to find Darkstar and Lysono Maar irresistably attractive. And she still has the hots for the bastard who deflowered her.

Sansa is a famous example for it, certainly in the first books. She adjusts some of it, but it's still a desire to dream of kisses towards someone she finds physically attractive (beyond the facial features). But a big no for Tyrion, no matter how much she tries to see something in him beyond surface features.

Asha for Qarl the Maid and her first suitor, who still yearns for her too.

Brienne has the hots for Jaime, had the hots for "the most handsome man that Sansa had ever seen - Renly".

Dany and her Daario and not able to imagine herself with Jorah and Hizdar not doing a thing for her.

Ygritte who thinks Jon handsome, and Val watching him swordfight from her tower room.

 

[A Ghost of Someone]

26 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Oh, that would be great! SweetLyanna, getting things done.

She would be a great continuation of House Arryn. I certainly can see her as a posetive influence on any family she may be a part of.

[Meera of Tarth]

1 minute ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

She would be a great continuation of House Arryn. I certainly can see her as a posetive influence on any family she may be a part of.

I had not thought about it before....but if they developed a romance between these two I think she would be a great influence on him!

[Meera of Tarth]

21 minutes ago, Cron said:

I read your entire post with interest, an open mind, and great respect for your views.

Thanks for reading it

[A Ghost of Someone]

5 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I had not thought about it before....but if they developed a romance between these two I think she would be a great influence on him!

It would also effectively remove LF from the Vale influence too. Jon is not that bright though on this show.

[Cron]

5 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Thanks for reading it

Yep.

[Le Cygne]

4 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

It would also effectively remove LF from the Vale influence too. Jon is not that bright though on this show.

Yeah, that's a big plot hole. You sold my sister to the Boltons. Have a guest room.

As for Lyanna, she'd make quick work of LF. Now that would be nice to see.

[Lord Friendzone]

26 minutes ago, Newstar said:

I kind of question what the narrative point of having Tyrion fall in love with Dany would be, unless Tyrion's bitterness at his love for Dany being unrequited leads him to turn on her. Always a possibility, I guess. 

Setting up a bertrayal?

33 minutes ago, Cron said:

Uh, to "mount" someone is a euphemism for sex.   Daario is ahead of Jon (a the third "mount" b/c he's had sex with Dany, and Jon has not.  In fact, unless I'm forgetting someone else Dany had sex with, Daario IS the third and final "mount."

Well, the mount can mean a person or something connecting tis to a person. Like Silver leading her to Drogo, Drogo/Meereen and Hizdar and Ghost to Jon. More common interpretation is that these symbolize three men, three marriages and three important individuals for her.

One to bed was Drodo who happend to be herfirst marriage.

One to dread was probably as far as show goes Hizdar, dreading this marriag and keeping peace in Meereen.

One to love will be someone Dany will choose to marry and be with, however long that might be. It's something that will come, once she reaches Westeros as her next chapter in her life.

Quote

Oh, really? You taught me some stuff about Stark history, thanks. But I still think incest is generally portrayed as bad in GoT/ASOIAF, it seems clearly "taboo," especially in Westeros.  My goodness, look at Jaime and Cersei's relationship.  It seems very clear to me in many places that their relationship is VERY taboo in Westeros

Jaime and Cersei is incest but this is brother and sister, a lot worse than aunt/nephew, uncle/niece or cousin/cousin which are tolerable. Also, the Targaryens are special and they have their own rules and dragons. They've been able to control things with them. Once dragons started to die out, their control become less and less. If Dany still has dragons, she can enforce things, If not, then things are harder. Rhaegar wished he had dragons and RR would've been dealt with much easier, Aerys might have been replaced with him and the whole story could've ben diferent.

Starks did incest to a certain extent and these marriages were normal. Most of Targaryen madness are combinations of genes and upbringing or certain events like witth Aerys Duskendale.