What happened to Shiera Seastar?

[Endymion I Targaryen]

7 minutes ago, OuttaOldtown said:

"Dany had not noticed Quaithe in the crowd, yet there she stood, eyes wet and shiny behind the implacable red lacquer mask." 

No mention of color..

Uncommon eye colours are usually mentioned in the books (Roose, Aegon, Rhaegar, Others, Melisandre, Euron). There no such thing for Quaithe.

[OuttaOldtown]

Just now, King Endymion Targaryen said:

Uncommon eye colours are usually mentioned in the books (Roose, Aegon, Rhaegar, Others, Melisandre, Euron). There no such thing for Quaithe.

Not disagreeing, just pointing out that her eyes are referenced but there's no mention of color. One of several reasons I'm unconvinced she's Sheira..

[Ashes Of Westeros]

16 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

She is quaithe...yes, it is known. However, she is also pretty clearly Melisandra's mother.

But why? I didn't pict it up in the books.

[scotcat]

Is Shiera Quaithe? Maybe she is...but then again, maybe she isn't. 

The thing that puts me off this theory is the lack of comment on Quaithe's eye colour.  Unusual eyes -which Shiera had - are mentioned in the books whenever they crop up.

[YOVMO]

1 minute ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

But why? I didn't pict it up in the books.

a bunch of small things which all start with Melony Lot 7. This is something deeply connected to the past of Melissandra.

Then physical description. Shiera has a "heart-shaped face" abd that description is also given to Mel (and no other characters in asoiaf).

About Shierra: "She was the greatest beauty of her age, a slender and elegant woman, slim of waist and full of breast" and also "she had a heart-shaped face, full lips, and her mismatched eyes were strangely large and full of mischief; her rivals said she used them to melt men's hearts"

 

Then Maester Cressen describes Mel as "Slender, she was graceful, taller than most knights, with full breasts and a narrow waist and a heart shaped face."

Shierra also had an interest in prophecies. And Bloodraven...well....

Also, despite looking young we get a lot of clues that Mel is actually very old. Practiced her art "for years beyond count" and talks about time before asshai.

The idea is that Bloodraven and Shiera Seastar had a love child which Shiera brought east to keep from harm. That child was Melony Seastar who wound up being sold into slavery -- prob to the red priests.

Further, if Melisandra is Melony Seastar it would explain how, while at the wall,she has a vision of Bloodraven and then spontaneously begins bleeding. There are some who argue, convincingly to me at least, that this makes her the red star bleeding and that Jon will be AAR born under a red star bleeding.

 

If you google S+B=M there are more in depth and far more eloquent explanations that I can quickly type up here. Like with anything, it isn't in stone till grrm writes it. That said, I am convinced by what I have seen.

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 hours ago, OuttaOldtown said:

"Dany had not noticed Quaithe in the crowd, yet there she stood, eyes wet and shiny behind the implacable red lacquer mask." 

No mention of color..

Who needs color. The sea is wet and a star is shiny.

[Lost Melnibonean]

As to Melisandre being the daughter of Shiera...

 

[chrisdaw]

If Quaithe is Shiera, obscuring her eye colour would be the least of her talents, or alterations to her physical appearance.

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

If Quaithe is Shiera, obscuring her eye colour would be the least of her talents, or alterations to her physical appearance.

Might give it away too easily too. Consider the total number of hints we have about Bloodraven. It's not a lot. But for me, wet and shiny seals the deal. 

[Ashes Of Westeros]

@YOVMO Thank you! I haven't read the Knight of the 7 Kingdoms yet, but I will keep it in my mind.

But if Mel is a daughter of Bloodraven and Shiera, it means she's half-Targaryen, right?

[YOVMO]

17 minutes ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

@YOVMO Thank you! I haven't read the Knight of the 7 Kingdoms yet, but I will keep it in my mind.

But if Mel is a daughter of Bloodraven and Shiera, it means she's half-Targaryen, right?

Which would explain her ability to have prophecy. having prophetic visions is pretty much part of the Targaryen starter kit

[Ashes Of Westeros]

2 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

Which would explain her ability to have prophecy. having prophetic visions is pretty much part of the Targaryen starter kit

Aye, the dragon dreams. Probably Mel will also bond with dragons?

[YOVMO]

4 minutes ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

Aye, the dragon dreams. Probably Mel will also bond with dragons?

Yes, but more than that. There is Dany the Dreamer who has a prophecy about the Doom of Valyria and convinced the Targaryen's to sell all their holdings and move to dragon stone, there is Rhaegar who had prophecies about TPTWP and bloodraven himself who is said to have "dabbled in prophecy"

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

Aye, the dragon dreams. Probably Mel will also bond with dragons?

The fate of Serala, the Lace Serpent of Duskendale foreshadows the fate of Melisandre...

Quote

The queen's men might remain fervent followers of the Lord of Light, but the lesser folk of Dragonstone were drifting back to the gods they'd known all their lives. They said Stannis was ensorceled, that Melisandre had turned him away from the Seven to bow before some demon out of shadow, and . . . worst sin of all . . . that she and her god had failed him. And there were knights and lordlings who felt the same.

Davos V, Storm 54

Quote

"In Duskendale they love Lord Denys still, despite the woe he brought them. 'Tis Lady Serala that they blame, his Myrish wife. The Lace Serpent, she is called. ... The Lace Serpent filled her husband's ear with Myrish poison, they say, until Lord Denys rose against his king and took him captive. ...

... "Once Lord Denys lost his hostage, he opened his gates and ended his defiance rather than let Lord Tywin take the town. He bent the knee and begged for mercy, but the king was not of a forgiving mind. Lord Denys lost his head, as did his brothers and his sister, uncles, cousins, all the lordly Darklyns. The Lace Serpent was burned alive, poor woman, though her tongue was torn out first, and her female parts, with which it was said that she had enslaved her lord. Half of Duskendale will still tell you that Aerys was too kind to her."

Brienne II, Feast 9

Being burned alive would be a fitting end for Melisandre.

Quote

At the top of the steps Davos heard a soft jingle of bells that could only herald Patchface. The princess's fool was waiting outside the maester's door for her like a faithful hound. Dough-soft and slump-shouldered, his broad face tattooed in a motley pattern of red and green squares, Patchface wore a helm made of a rack of deer antlers strapped to a tin bucket. A dozen bells hung from the tines and rang when he moved . . . which meant constantly, since the fool seldom stood still. He jingled and jangled his way everywhere he went; small wonder that Pylos had exiled him from Shireen's lessons. "Under the sea the old fish eat the young fish," the fool muttered at Davos. He bobbed his head, and his bells clanged and chimed and sang. "I know, I know, oh oh oh."

Davos V, Storm 54

Melisandre is old...

Quote

... Strange voices called to her from days long past.

...

... Melisandre had practiced her art for years beyond count, and she had paid the price.

Melisandre, Dance 31

Shireen is young...

Quote

Her name was Shireen. She would be ten on her next name day, and she was the saddest child that Maester Cressen had ever known.

Prologue, Clash

Shireen wants king’s blood...

Quote

Melisandre moved closer. "Save them, sire. Let me wake the stone dragons. Three is three. Give me the boy."

...

... He turned back to Melisandre. "You swear there is no other way? Swear it on your life, for I promise, you shall die by inches if you lie."

... Melisandre went to him, her red lips parted, her ruby throbbing. "Give me this boy," she whispered, "and I will give you your kingdom."

"He can't," said Davos. "Edric Storm is gone."

Davos VI, Storm 63

Shireen has king’s blood, and she is a dead girl...

Quote

"If Stannis wins his war, Shireen will stand as heir to the Iron Throne."

"Then I pity your Seven Kingdoms."

"The maesters say greyscale is not—"

"The maesters may believe what they wish. Ask a woods witch if you would know the truth. The grey death sleeps, only to wake again. The child is not clean! "

"She seems a sweet girl. You cannot know—"

"I can. You know nothing, Jon Snow." Val seized his arm. "I want the monster out of there. Him and his wet nurses. You cannot leave them in that same tower as the dead girl."

Melisandre cannot burn Edric Storm, but she is going to burn Shireen with Selyse’s blessing, since they will both be desperate having seen Jon Snow betrayed and wounded or dead, and having come to believe that Ramsay has defeated and killed Stannis.

And the old fish will eat the young fish. Poor Shireen.

Stannis is gonna be pissed, but wouldn't this be sweet...

Quote

“They will not.” Melisandre’s voice was soft. “I am sorry, Your Grace. This is not an end. More false kings will soon rise to take up the crowns of those who’ve died.” “More?”Stannis looked as though he would gladly have throttled her.

 

[OuttaOldtown]

15 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Might give it away too easily too. Consider the total number of hints we have about Bloodraven. It's not a lot. But for me, wet and shiny seals the deal. 

From Bran III:

Every flight begins with a fall, the crow said. Look down.

“I’m afraid...”

LOOKDOWN!

Bran looked down, and felt his insides turn to water. The ground was rushing up at him now. The whole world was spread out below him, a tapestry of white and brown and green. He could see everything so clearly that for a moment he forgot to be afraid. He could see the whole realm, and everyone in it.

He saw Winterfell as the eagles see it, the tall towers looking squat and stubby from above, the castle walls just lines in the dirt. He saw Maester Luwin on his balcony, studying the sky through a polished bronze tube and frowning as he made notes in a book. He saw his brother Robb, taller and stronger than he remembered him, practicing swordplay in the yard with real steel in his hand. He saw Hodor, the simple giant from the stables, carrying an anvil to Mikken’s forge, hefting it onto his shoulder as easily as another man might heft a bale of hay. At the heart of the godswood, the great white weirwood brooded over its reflection in the black pool, its leaves rustling in a chill wind. When it felt Bran watching, it lifted its eyes from the still waters and stared back at him knowingly.

He looked south, and saw the great blue-green rush of the Trident. He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief. He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.

He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the Jade Sea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise.

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

Now you know, the crow whispered as it sat on his shoulder. Now you know why you must live.

“Why?” Bran said, not understanding, falling, falling.

Because winter is coming. Bran looked at the crow on his shoulder, and the crow looked back.

It had three eyes, and the third eye was full of a terrible knowledge.  Bran looked down. There was nothing below him now but snow and cold and death, a frozen wasteland where jagged blue-white spires of ice waited to embrace him. They flew up at him like spears. He saw the bones of a thousand other dreamers impaled upon their points. He was desperately afraid. 

This in our first intro to the 'three eyed crow' and has an absolutely undeniable connection to Brynden Rivers once we learn about him. I also fail to see the comparison between BR and Quaithe, he basically gives Bran more information here than any spymaster could learn in a lifetime. Quaithe gives Dany cryptic riddles, shadowbinders of Asshai have a bad reputation, so I do not buy into her being Dany's guide. She has easy access to Dany, BR did everything in his power to get Bran to come to him. Also, he shows Bran the whole world in what he describes as a tapestry, yet he refers to her as one of the ghosts of his past:

"He heard a whisper on the wind, a rustling amongst the leaves. You cannot speak to him, try as you might. I know. I have my own ghosts, Bran. A brother that I loved, a brother that I hated, a woman I desired. Through the trees, I see them still, but no word of mine has ever reached them. The past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it."

 I also think Sheira only being mentioned once in the series (with no great detail) and playing no active great role historically other than a deepening the wedge between BR & BS. I'm not dismissing it entirely, but the clues imo are all on the weak side..

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, OuttaOldtown said:

From Bran III:

Every flight begins with a fall, the crow said. Look down.

“I’m afraid...”

LOOKDOWN!

Bran looked down, and felt his insides turn to water. The ground was rushing up at him now. The whole world was spread out below him, a tapestry of white and brown and green. He could see everything so clearly that for a moment he forgot to be afraid. He could see the whole realm, and everyone in it.

He saw Winterfell as the eagles see it, the tall towers looking squat and stubby from above, the castle walls just lines in the dirt. He saw Maester Luwin on his balcony, studying the sky through a polished bronze tube and frowning as he made notes in a book. He saw his brother Robb, taller and stronger than he remembered him, practicing swordplay in the yard with real steel in his hand. He saw Hodor, the simple giant from the stables, carrying an anvil to Mikken’s forge, hefting it onto his shoulder as easily as another man might heft a bale of hay. At the heart of the godswood, the great white weirwood brooded over its reflection in the black pool, its leaves rustling in a chill wind. When it felt Bran watching, it lifted its eyes from the still waters and stared back at him knowingly.

He looked south, and saw the great blue-green rush of the Trident. He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief. He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.

He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the Jade Sea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise.

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

Now you know, the crow whispered as it sat on his shoulder. Now you know why you must live.

“Why?” Bran said, not understanding, falling, falling.

Because winter is coming. Bran looked at the crow on his shoulder, and the crow looked back.

It had three eyes, and the third eye was full of a terrible knowledge.  Bran looked down. There was nothing below him now but snow and cold and death, a frozen wasteland where jagged blue-white spires of ice waited to embrace him. They flew up at him like spears. He saw the bones of a thousand other dreamers impaled upon their points. He was desperately afraid. 

This in our first intro to the 'three eyed crow' and has an absolutely undeniable connection to Brynden Rivers once we learn about him. I also fail to see the comparison between BR and Quaithe, he basically gives Bran more information here than any spymaster could learn in a lifetime. Quaithe gives Dany cryptic riddles, shadowbinders of Asshai have a bad reputation, so I do not buy into her being Dany's guide. She has easy access to Dany, BR did everything in his power to get Bran to come to him. Also, he shows Bran the whole world in what he describes as a tapestry, yet he refers to her as one of the ghosts of his past:

"He heard a whisper on the wind, a rustling amongst the leaves. You cannot speak to him, try as you might. I know. I have my own ghosts, Bran. A brother that I loved, a brother that I hated, a woman I desired. Through the trees, I see them still, but no word of mine has ever reached them. The past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it."

 I also think Sheira only being mentioned once in the series (with no great detail) and playing no active great role historically other than a deepening the wedge between BR & BS. I'm not dismissing it entirely, but the clues imo are all on the weak side..

 

I hear ya. But consider that we had no idea what the three-eyed crow was until the Groerge wanted us to know in Dance. He could have a similar reason for wanting us not to know definitely who Quaithe is just yet. Either that or Quaithe is just Quaithe with wet and shiny eyes behind a mask. 

[OuttaOldtown]

3 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I hear ya. But consider that we had no idea what the three-eyed crow was until the Groerge wanted us to know in Dance. He could have a similar reason for wanting us not to know definitely who Quaithe is just yet. Either that or Quaithe is just Quaithe with wet and shiny eyes behind a mask. 

You may be right, I don't rule it out. He has waited several books with some reveals, and in the case of JonCon we were introduced to him as Griff and his true identity was revealed a couple of chapters later. I have far more questions than I do answers about Quaithe, I don't really believe any theories on her..

[purple-eyes]

i am completely on aboard that mel is daughter of shiera and bloodraven. which will make her at least over 100 years old i guess. 

she reminds me of Rhaegar who both shared a lot of connections with rubies and wrongly-interpreted prophecies. 

she must be a hidden targ. 

[OuttaOldtown]

On 8/2/2016 at 11:57 AM, YOVMO said:

 

Then physical description. Shiera has a "heart-shaped face" abd that description is also given to Mel (and no other characters in asoiaf).

 

You do realize her description is from an SSM, not the books. While SSM's have their place I do not consider them a good basis for a theory. 'Dark Arts' are not exclusive to Sheira's bloodline & Targaryens, and I don't see how being a slave at a very young age matches with being someone as wise and gifted as he describes Sheira. The fact that the SSM, which he was asked to give a description, provides more text on her than the novels and novellas combined doesn't suggest great importance.. 

My guess is Mel was captured as a girl in Hardhome and was sold to slavery, eventually being forced to worship R'hllor, studying shadowbinding and other dark arts. If this is true the paradox would be that since her arrival at the wall she's betrayed & denigrated the God's of her ancestors..

[YOVMO]

1 minute ago, OuttaOldtown said:

You do realize her description is from an SSM, not the books. While SSM's have their place I do not consider them a good basis for a theory. 'Dark Arts' are not exclusive to Sheira's bloodline & Targaryens, and I don't see how being a slave at a very young age matches with being someone as wise and gifted as he describes Sheira. The fact that the SSM, which he was asked to give a description, provides more text on her than the novels and novellas combined doesn't suggest great importance.. 

My guess is Mel was captured as a girl in Hardhome and was sold to slavery, eventually being forced to worship R'hllor, studying shadowbinding and other dark arts. If this is true the paradox would be that since her arrival at the wall she's betrayed & denigrated the God's of her ancestors..

I do know (and mentioned) that it was from SSM. Also, I know that Dark Arts are not exclusive. I will say that if Shiera escaped to Essos with Bloodraven's child, getting caught by slavers isn't totally unrealistic despite being wise and gifted. It happened to Tyrion and he was wise and gifted.

 

Of course I won't say that I am 100% sure about this. I just think that there is no internal conflict that makes it impossible. That said, I have thought about the Hardhome theory and also see that as being a perfectly reasonable one. Nothing you say here would be a surprise to me if it turned out to be true.

 

As always, all we can do is speculate until the books are out. Some speculation is better than others. R+L=J seems fairly certain while other things seem a little more, shall we say, tricky. In the meantime, the best we can do is try to keep our speculation within a realm where there is no internal contradiction, enjoy playing out the scenarios in our heads and wait to find out how it all plays out.