Did GRRM miss an opportunity to send a subtle message about race in ASIOAF

[SevasTra82]

One thing I want to point out is that by GRRM's own admission, Essos wasn't even named or fleshed out until 2008 when he had to draw out the world maps for the world map book.  (The name "Essos" doesn't appear ONCE in the novels, either).

This is the reason, IMO, that Essos seems so rushed and cliche'ed.  Outside of the major cities that Dany is in, the rest of it he created on a whim, with very little deep thinking or fore-thought put into it, simply because he was being asked to add new places for the map book that was coming out.  The end result was just a cliched oriental feel with very little depth.

[Joy Hill]

12 hours ago, RoamingRonin said:

You don't understand it because it's not something that affects you. You don't have to seek for representation because media like sci-fi/fantasy caters to you. 

If it's not so difficult to identify with a character of any race then there should be no opposition to a bit of diversity. 

Let's stop dismissing diversity because "fantasy worlds are based on medieval Europe". That only applies if we're discussing historical fiction -- which we're not. This is a fantasy story. No one balks at the idea of elves, orcs, and dwarfs. And while I'm not asking for writers to start including more people of color and other minority groups in their works, I will question why they don't. Especially in the year of our lord 2016. 

I'm mixed actually, so there's no one in ASOIAF who looks exactly like me. This doesn't affect my enjoyment of the characters. (Another poster has already said it, but it's possible I don't get this simply because I'm not an American.)

ASOIAF is fantasy, but Westeros is clearly based on medieval Europe. If you read the description of what looks like a village from medieval Europe, where a bunch of knights show up and tell character X that he's to come with them to the castle, you will see in your mind's eye a structure that resembles an European castle, not a Japanese castle or an Indian fort. It doesn't mean you're prejudiced against non-European castles, it's just that given the setting you wouldn't think it's an Indian fort. It's also why you assume all characters are "white". Now, if a writer made up a fantasy world based on the kingdom of Kongo before the first contacts with the Portuguese, there's a good chance all characters would be "black". If you create a dystopia in a post-apocalyptic big metropolis similar to New York, you will likely have a racially diverse cast. (It doesn't mean you can't write about black-skinned knights and ladies or an all-white New York-like dystopia, but I don't think it would improve the story.)

I'm not opposed to diversity, I just don't believe there's anything inherently positive in racially diverse characters, nor anything inherently negative about a predominantly white/black cast of characters. What matters is writing compelling three-dimensional characters.

Which brings me to Slaver's Bay. I'm not sure what the reason is (maybe wanting to hide Dany's faults or rushed worldbuilding like others have said), but I dislike SB chapters because I don't care about any character from that part of the world and all the "exoticism" makes me uncomfortable. Surprising, given how fleshed out Westeros is. So maybe it's a good thing GRRM didn't attempt to incorporate all the different human groups of Planetos in the main story.

 

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

6 hours ago, Crixus said:

Bu fantasy by its very definition as a genre allows for much mixing stuff/subverting traditions. Sounds rather silly 

Oh, sure. But mixing and subverting implies that there's a base, or a standard, or whatever you want to call it. The mixing and the subversion is a secondary step, and an optional one at that. So if somebody doesn't take that step, it shouldn't follow that they ought to be criticised for having a mostly (or even entirely) cast in the first place, at least in this particular fantasy milieu.

Now, if the animals and monsters and so on were different, or if the author were from a different background, it wouldn't necessarily naturally follow that the characters would be white. Say, if an author used the various elements of African folklore and mythology: then one might expect the characters in such a fantasy setting to be black (but equally, I don't think anybody ought to have a problem with it if they weren't, unless the change was being made for political reasons).

(By the way: I don't know anything about African folklore/myths/history. Does anybody know what it would look like if you did such a story? What would you have in place of dragons and knights and elves?)

As for Slaver's Bay, I'd just like to point out that our entire experience of that place has been through the eyes of characters who aren't from there and don't want to be there. Not a single POV character likes Slaver's Bay: at best, Dany is in denial and Barristan is putting a brave face on things.

Now, maybe it's beyond GRRM's imagination to write convincingly of a culture so alien to his own, which I can't fault him for - but I don't think it's totally fair to accuse him of "orientalism" when the function of the locale within the story is as a place that the characters don't understand and want to get away from. In other words, if it seems oriental to us, it's because it seems oriental to the POV characters. Perhaps if we had a POV from a Ghiscari, we'd get a different impression.

[BricksAndSparrows]

11 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Please don't put words in my mouth. I never demanded that there must be thorough research, only that, that's what writers should do if they're that anxious about offending people or being criticised. (Really writers should be doing as much research on everything in their work, anyway).

I didn't put words in your mouth. It's what you said. You may feel like I have misinterpreted you, or that I'm unfairly representing your point, but I'm not manufacturing facts. It's what you said.

Quote

“Aegon the Unworthy is not representative of all Targs, or all dark skinned characters”

You say this now, but when you imagine a black Aegon, it's inconsistent with what you said previously.

Quote

" When a white man is portrayed as being sexually perverse or sexually primal/animalistic, or when a white woman is portrayed as lascivious, sexually compliant, or using sex to manipulate, that does not reflect on their race, because it doesn't reinforce existing stereotypes - not so for POC. "

So it becomes very hard to predict just when you’re going to be offending people. Based on what you said above, Aegon the Unworthy would reinforce a negative stereotype.

Then you say…

Quote

“Daeron the Good, Alysanne and Aegon V, for example, are nothing like him. Moreover, there are several non-Targ characters that are like him (Aegon the unworthy), so there wouldn't be any implication that black people are lazy, promiscuous fools.”

Daeron the Good and Aegon the V balance the diversity of personalities for Targaryen’s in your opinion (On this point we agree.) But why is it, the same is not true for Doran Martell, Quentyn Martell, Ellaria Martell, Archibald Yronwood, Black Balaq, or Jhalabar Xho?

Quote

 “I don't see how making the Valyrians black equates to losing the artistic purpose of his work. How exactly would the change effect the major themes of the series?”

I’ve already said (you even quoted me!) making the Valyrians black wouldn’t make any difference. I would love the books just as much and it would have no impact on the story. But you are not just talking about the characters being black; you’re suggesting other changes…

Quote

“…writers should research if they're that anxious about offending people or being criticised. But most people have enough awareness that it shouldn't be necessary, really. The most important thing is to write the characters as people, and not a collection of stereotypes.”

The point of this thread isn’t: Would you still like the books if the Valyrians were black? It’s asking if GRRM should be criticized for not making them black. I don’t think he should.

[WilliamWesterosiWallace]

On 06/08/2016 at 3:38 PM, thewolfofStarfall said:

2.) R+L=J would be easy to spot

I'm so sorry, you raise good points, and I should be discussing them, but this line has awoken the laughter monster in me...

"Ned?"

"Yeah, Robert. What?"

"Ned. That baby. Where did you get it?"

"Oh, you mean little Jon here? On Dorne, Robert, where else? Look at it. It's brown. Where could I have gotten it? Valyria?"

"Ned, you were in Dorne for ONE MONTH, and that baby is AT LEAST two months old!"

"I don't see your point, Robert."

"Ned, either you're lying to me, or you have a time-traveling cock, because there is NO WAY that baby went from a spoonful of spunk to a crying turnip in ONE FUCKING MONTH!"

"Robert... That's very racist of you, do you know that?" 

*Grabs warhammer* "Say 'Rhaegar', little turnip."

 

  

[John Doe]

ren

14 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

A source...what, like academic articles? Books? Let me introduce you to my friend, Google. Here's a small sample plucked from just a quick search:

Yellow Fever: The Exotification of Asian Women

Bodies, Revolutions, and Magic: Cultural Nationalism and Racial Fetishism

Dangerous Curves: Latina Bodies in the Media

Gender, Race and Media Representation

The “Gypsy” Stereotype and the Sexualization of Romani Women

The racial stereotype, colonial discourse, fetishism, and racism

I don't think it's necessary to slog through dry academic writing to see that there is a tendency to objectify "exotic" bodies, though. I mean, even the word "exotic" has sexual connotations.

So if I go outside right now, and ask people what people they associate with sand, they'll all say the Italians? The derogatory term for someone of Middle Eastern/North African descent is sand n*gger, ffs! And yes, pomegranates, olive skin and dark eyes/hair are very much associated with the Middle East region. That those individual traits are not exclusively associated with Arab/Middle East cultures/people is irrelevant, because no other culture is associated with all those things combined. It's also irrelevant if members of those cultures actually do have dark features, eat pomegranates or live in the desert, or not, because this is about stereotypes.

I'm familiar with that quote from the author. It only pertains to appearance, whereas I'm talking more about culture.

But what is "controversial"? Having non-white characters? (But then, isn't the opposite also potentially controversial?)

Okay, google is your source. It isn't a reliable one. You can find articles in the internet which support all sorts of nonsense.

Of course i posted a quote talking about their appearence, as you said dornish people were poc. Unless you want to suggest that Greek, Spanish, Italian, Portugese people are poc, this isn't true for them.

So sand is their culture? Pomegranates are their culture? Olive skin is their culture? That doesn't make a lot of sense.

You admit yourself that GRRM didn't picture arabs or persians when describing their appearence, yet you claim their culture is arabian/persian because their appearence is associated with the Middle East? This doesn't add up.

Another GRRM quote:

Quote

So you could say Dorne is Wales mixed with Spain and Palestine with some entirely imaginary influences mixed in. Or you could just say it's Dorne....

Not a word about persia here, and not a word about Dorne being arabia either. I admitted before it drew influence from moorish spain and arabian regions in general, but not enough to support your argument that it is arabian, the same way I wouldn't say Dorne is Wales.

GRRM does have non-white characters, there's no controversy in that. Making a Targaryen like Aegon the Unworthy black who, in your opinion, reinforces stereotypes, would be controversial to you, wouldn't it?

14 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

No, a person is not defined by their ethnicity, but their ethnicity is a part of their identity. So if you're writing about a pregnant bisexual Japanese-American nurse, for example, you might want to read up on pregnancy, bisexuality, Japanese Americans, and nursing.

Let's say someone writes a fantasy story where there's a black pirate. What exactly should the author research on being black?  

[John Doe]

18 hours ago, RoamingRonin said:

You don't understand it because it's not something that affects you. You don't have to seek for representation because media like sci-fi/fantasy caters to you. 

If it's not so difficult to identify with a character of any race then there should be no opposition to a bit of diversity. 

Let's stop dismissing diversity because "fantasy worlds are based on medieval Europe". That only applies if we're discussing historical fiction -- which we're not. This is a fantasy story. No one balks at the idea of elves, orcs, and dwarfs. And while I'm not asking for writers to start including more people of color and other minority groups in their works, I will question why they don't. Especially in the year of our lord 2016. 

I'm not sure if you noticed, but asoiaf is incridibly diverse.

So you're basically complaining that the media isn't catering to you by inserting characters of your own race, which is pretty weak. First, it's not Martins responsibility to make his main cast as racially diverse as possible,  it's his responibility to make a good story. Then we have a fact that he's writing a story which is  inspired by european history, what sense would it make to change the skin color of the people there? What sense would it make to have a story based on feudal japan full of persians? I'm not saying it couldn't still be a good story, just what's the reasoning behind the change? Wouldn't it make the story richer if you incoorperate different peoples not just by inserting a different skin color in the draft, but by also giving them their own distinct culture?

[BricksAndSparrows]

See, when you read the conversations of just the last couple of posts, this is not about black Valyrians. It's about changing much much more of the story. Dorne and the Summer Islands have people who aren't white, and people are critical how those characters are portrayed. If the Valyrians were black, people would be saying that it is a misrepresentation of, or insulting to black people.

 

[John Doe]

 

4 minutes ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

See, when you read the conversations of just the last couple of posts, this is not about black Valyrians. It's about changing much much more of the story. Dorne and the Summer Islands have people who aren't white, and people are critical how those characters are portrayed. If the Valyrians were black, people would be saying that it is a misrepresentation of, or insulting to black people.

 

Exactly.

 

Though, I stand by the fact that the dornish are in fact white.

[BricksAndSparrows]

8 minutes ago, John Doe said:

Though, I stand by the fact that the dornish are in fact white.

Some of them are, there are three types. But the ones with Rhoynish heritage are dark skinned.

[John Doe]

1 hour ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

Some of them are, there are three types. But the ones with Rhoynish heritage are dark skinned.

The salty dornish are european in appearence too, that leaves the sandy dornish as last possibility. But in in the books is says that's due to the sun, so I still don't see conclusive evidence for the dornish being poc, only that two thirds definitely aren't.

[the trees have eyes]

Just to throw in my two cents:

On 11/08/2016 at 10:17 PM, ShadowCat Rivers said:

I think that the real missed opportunity is when the author went full orientalism describing the Ghiscari as caricatures instead of as, well, people.

This is a valid criticism but shouldn't have any bearing on race: GRRM is deliberately depicting a slave-owning culture that is alen and barbarous.  The race of the Ghiscari shouldn't and doesn't matter as it's the amoral and violent culture we are meant to despise.  It isn't immediately clear what race the Ghiscari are in any case - which is a good thing imo as it is entirely irrelevant to the story and GRRM does not draw direct parallels for obvious resaons as some of the discussion about the Dornish or the mediterranean region above clearly shows.

On 12/08/2016 at 5:58 AM, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

Agreed entirely. There is an unhealthy orientalism about the portrayal of Essos generally. Not Martin`s finest moment. 

Essos is a big place.  Slaver's Bay has its unique culture but the Free Cities are a different scensario altogether.  To me Braavos is analogous to Venice, albeit with a colder climate, and the other Free Cities are loosely based on the Mediterranean civilizations of the ancient / early modern period whether you want to imagine Rome, Athens, Carthage, or the Minoans, Phoenicians or Egyptians.

The only and fairly obvious point about GRRM's world building is that he constructed a geography and then bolted on cultures and peoples that loosely represents the Old World transition from Europe (Westeros) into the Mediterranean / Near East (Western Essos / Free Cities) and then the Steppe and Far East (Dothraki Sea / Qarth / Yi-Ti).  You even have Africa tucked away to the south (Sothoryos) and virtually unknown and unmapped just as it was to the medieval European.  Only Slaver's Bay appears as truly repugnant to me and I don't think race really has any relevance to Essos in general.

[BricksAndSparrows]

18 hours ago, John Doe said:

The salty dornish are european in appearence too, that leaves the sandy dornish as last possibility. But in in the books is says that's due to the sun, so I still don't see conclusive evidence for the dornish being poc, only that two thirds definitely aren't.

I imagine them looking like the Spanish. When you consider their ancestry, it would be odd for them not to be dark skinned.

[Orphalesion]

1 hour ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

I imagine them looking like the Spanish. When you consider their ancestry, it would be odd for them not to be dark skinned.

Yes but, again many US readers/Fans/tumblr users, seem to interpret anything a shade darker than lily-white as "African level dark skin", as evidenced by the ridiculous outcry when the Dornish were cast as Hispanic looking individuals in the show and the complaining when GRRM himself said he imagined them like that.

To me they were always looking Spanish/Middle Eastern looking (Moorish Spain, basically, as in Spain settled by Middle Easterners) but many people just read "dark" and declared the Dornish to be African, never mind all the other ethnicities that feature very dark skin as a prominent feature. 

Also, again, I'm not from the US and sometimes a bit confused at the many, many terms the US has for "human" but doesn't Person of Colour exclusively refer to people of African Ancestry? Or are Hispanic/Middle Eastern/Indian/Southern Pacific Islanders etc. also "categorized" like that?

[Lychnidos]

Going off tangent a little, can someone be nice and give me some example of fantasy literature were the setting isn't Western Europe inspired (e.g. sub-Saharan African, Indian, East Asian, Pre-Columbian American), but the people are European in appearance. I've never encountered this, though I'm not that well read in the genre.

[Orphalesion]

Just now, Lychnidos said:

Going off tangent a little, can someone be nice and give me some example of fantasy literature were the setting isn't Western Europe inspired (e.g. sub-Saharan African, Indian, East Asian, Pre-Columbian American), but the people are European in appearance. I've never encountered this, though I'm not that well read in the genre.

Earthsea is the only one that I know. It's still pretty European but Ursula Le Guin said that ALL her characters are supposed to be not European. And she was very angry when the adaptions made them all white.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

3 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

Also, again, I'm not from the US and sometimes a bit confused at the many, many terms the US has for "human" but doesn't Person of Colour exclusively refer to people of African Ancestry? Or are Hispanic/Middle Eastern/Indian/Southern Pacific Islanders etc. also "categorized" like that?

Apparently "person of colour" means anybody who isn't white, but "coloured person" means black. Also, it's possible to be "white-Hispanic", but I don't know if such a person counts as "of colour". Americans are weird.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

7 minutes ago, Lychnidos said:

Going off tangent a little, can someone be nice and give me some example of fantasy literature were the setting isn't Western Europe inspired (e.g. sub-Saharan African, Indian, East Asian, Pre-Columbian American), but the people are European in appearance. I've never encountered this, though I'm not that well read in the genre.

Neither have I, but I assume if it exists it's probably in another language.

Although, now that I think about it, there was an author...

***googles***

...yes, there's an Australian author called Kylie Chan whose books are Chinese-inspired. I never read them, but they might fit the bill.

Edit: there's more in SF, obviously: The Three-Body Problem, Zendegei

[RoamingRonin]

2 minutes ago, Lychnidos said:

Going off tangent a little, can someone be nice and give me some example of fantasy literature were the setting isn't Western Europe inspired (e.g. sub-Saharan African, Indian, East Asian, Pre-Columbian American), but the people are European in appearance. I've never encountered this, though I'm not that well read in the genre.

The Kingkiller Chronicles comes to mind.

In particular, Ademre is influenced by Asian culture (particularly martial arts) but the people there are white.

[RoamingRonin]

22 hours ago, John Doe said:

I'm not sure if you noticed, but asoiaf is incridibly diverse.

So you're basically complaining that the media isn't catering to you by inserting characters of your own race, which is pretty weak. First, it's not Martins responsibility to make his main cast as racially diverse as possible,  it's his responibility to make a good story. Then we have a fact that he's writing a story which is  inspired by european history, what sense would it make to change the skin color of the people there? What sense would it make to have a story based on feudal japan full of persians? I'm not saying it couldn't still be a good story, just what's the reasoning behind the change? Wouldn't it make the story richer if you incoorperate different peoples not just by inserting a different skin color in the draft, but by also giving them their own distinct culture?

First off: I'm not complaining. Questioning a creative choice is not complaining We do that here all of the time. I get that this is topic is something you're tired of hearing about - not just on this forum but in general - but don't erroneously assume I'm complaining that writers should consider diversity first and the story second. 

Again, this is not historical fiction. My point is if a writer chooses to have black people in their fictional story then it's totally fine to do so. Would it make sense to have a fictional feudal Japan with Persians? Sure, why not. Fantasy writers do this all of the time. They pick and choose things from history to include in their stories. R'hllor worship is based partly on zoroastrianism, for example.

Ask yourself why you care about historical accuracy when a writer chooses to include a person of color yet you have absolutely no problem with elves and dwarfs.