UK Politics: The Overton Defenestration

[Hereward]

Fair point. That'll teach me not to fact check Newsnight!

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, mormont said:

Plenty of room for scepticism about this, I would say.

1. Neither Labour nor the Conservatives have even picked a candidate yet.

2. The poll was commissioned by Labour Leave, a group that has an interest in the poll showing exactly this result.

3. The only report on this poll I can find is in the Express, which spends so much time crowing over how earth-shaking a UKIP win would be that it doesn't have space to provide a link to any actual data about the poll (number of respondents, methodology, dates conducted, etc.) It finds space for a lengthy statement by the head of Labour Leave exhorting the party to pick a Eurosceptic candidate, though. Even he notes that given the large number of 'don't knows' Labour should win if it does this.

Overall, this doesn't appear to be a serious poll but an attempt to twist the Labour leadership's arm on candidate selection.

It does look as if it's a voodoo poll.

I would expect Labour to hold both Copeland and Stoke.

[SeanF]

17 hours ago, Chaircat Meow said:

No. If he felt the UK should not leave the EU regardless of a referendum result then he should have voted against holding the referendum. But he didn't. And I think he's only voting against leaving in this case because he knows the majority of MPs will vote to leave and so he won't be faced with the consequences of Parliament trying to set aside the referendum result.  

He probably thought there was never any possibility that the UK would vote to Leave.

[Hereward]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-38738481

:facepalm:

[Arakan]

Just want to say this: Bravo Brexiteers! Bravo! Your PM May is basically licking the ass of that demagogue Trump (see transcripts of her speech to Republican Conservatives). Have fun with Trump! You chose xenophobia, nationalism and chauvinism (the diseases of a 100 years ago) over solidarity and working together! 

But good. The frontlines are getting very clear with each new day! Do not expect that the EU will play nice, time that the Brexiteers taste their own medicine. 

And I hope that in the case of a 2nd independence referendum, the EU opens the door for Scotland.

[Arakan]

Quote

So it is my honour and my privilege to stand before you today in this great city of Philadelphia to proclaim them again, to join hands as we pick up that mantle of leadership once more, to renew our Special Relationship and to recommit ourselves to the responsibility of leadership in the modern world.

And it is my honour and privilege to do so at this time, as dawn breaks on a new era of American renewal.

For I speak to you not just as Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, but as a fellow Conservative who believes in the same principles that underpin the agenda of your Party. The value of liberty. The dignity of work. The principles of nationhood, family, economic prudence, patriotism – and putting power in the hands of the people.

Principles instilled in me from a young age. Principles that my parents taught me in the vicarage in Southern England in which I was raised.

I know that it is these principles that you have put at the heart of your plan for government.

And your victory in these elections gives you the opportunity to put them at the heart of this new era of American renewal too.

President Trump’s victory – achieved in defiance of all the pundits and the polls – and rooted not in the corridors of Washington, but in the hopes and aspirations of working men and women across this land. Your Party’s victory in both the Congress and the Senate where you swept all before you, secured with great effort, and achieved with an important message of national renewal.

And because of this – because of what you have done together, because of that great victory you have won – America can be stronger, greater, and more confident in the years ahead.

And a newly emboldened, confident America is good for the world.

An America that is strong and prosperous at home is a nation that can lead abroad. But you cannot – and should not – do so alone. You have said that it is time for others to step up. And I agree.

Theresa May. Disgusting 

[Hereward]

Much as I dislike the sucking up to Trump, the EU actively punishing the UK for exercising its democratic and sovereign rights under EU law, will just prove to Brexiteers that they were right to pull out of the co-prosperity sphere in the first place, And you, with your dreams of a rearmed nuclear Germany, and utter certainty of your moral superiority, are in no position to condemn the nationalism and chauvinism of others. 

[Arakan]

4 minutes ago, Hereward said:

Much as I dislike the sucking up to Trump, the EU actively punishing the UK for exercising its democratic and sovereign rights under EU law, will just prove to Brexiteers that they were right to pull out of the co-prosperity sphere in the first place, And you, with your dreams of a rearmed nuclear Germany, and utter certainty of your moral superiority, are in no position to condemn the nationalism and chauvinism of others. 

Who speaks of punishing? I speak of showing consequent behavior and no special treatment for the U.K. anymore. Accept our rules or not. Your decision. But be ready to face the consequences. 

May made a decision: side with Trump against the European leaders.

wrt nuclear arms...please. I do not dream of a German atom bomb. But I am full pro ever closer Military Union between core EU states. Something which will happen as soon as the U.K. who was always against it, leaves.  

[Chaircat Meow]

Saw Ted Malloch on The Week last night. He's not been given the position of US ambassador to the EU yet (and I don't know how important the position is) but it was a bit surreal to hear him say the reason he wanted the job was because he'd seen one undemocratic union collapse and wanted to help bring down another.

[polishgenius]

26 minutes ago, Arakan said:

May made a decision: side with Trump against the European leaders.

 

Much as I loathe Theresa May, and hate her cringeworthy arse-licking here, you're the one making up battle lines that don't exist. Did she even mention European leaders once in that speech?

[Chaircat Meow]

4 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

 

Much as I loathe Theresa May, and hate her cringeworthy arse-licking here, you're the one making up battle lines that don't exist. Did she even mention European leaders once in that speech?

The UK government's position is that it supports the EU integrating more fully if that's what those countries want to do. This is not Trump's position from the look of things.

[Werthead]

One of the things to keep an eye on is if May agrees to sell out the NHS and food safety standards in return for an American deal, or opening the way for American companies to join in fracking, since she'll find that a very hard sell.

Britain is pulling out of Euratom, the European regulatory body for nuclear safety. Apparently we have no choice: although it predates the EU by decades, Euratom membership is now tied up in EU membership. In theory there shouldn't be a change, but if the new nuclear stations want to cut safety standards for cost reasons, that will now be more achievable.

[Hereward]

43 minutes ago, Arakan said:

wrt nuclear arms...please. I do not dream of a German atom bomb. But I am full pro ever closer Military Union between core EU states. Something which will happen as soon as the U.K. who was always against it, leaves.  

Arakan: "The EU has all the abilities to become a military superpower to defend itself. A combined future military force of let's say Germany (including building up our own nuclear device), France, the Benelux and the Scandinavian countries has no one to fear in the world. As of 2016 Germany spent 40 billion USD on defense. If the political will is there this could easily go up to 100 billion USD (or more). We have the money but not the will (lapdog mentality so far).

In this sense thank you America for Trump. Now our politicians finally have to wake up and face the post-cold war reality." 

[sToNED_CAT]

13 minutes ago, Chaircat Meow said:

The UK government's position is that it supports the EU integrating more fully if that's what those countries want to do. This is not Trump's position from the look of things.

They DON'T want to do it. But I suspect the integration is going to happen anyway.

[Arakan]

38 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

 

Much as I loathe Theresa May, and hate her cringeworthy arse-licking here, you're the one making up battle lines that don't exist. Did she even mention European leaders once in that speech?

Come on it's not that difficult to understand, is it?

Trump clearly builds up an antagonistic position towards the EU and core EU countries. I should not need to spell it out. And Theresa May chose the side of that demagogue...for me she had a clear choice: values of the EU vs. values of that demagogue which are: xenophobia, chauvinism and nationalism. 

It's laughable to defend her! Compare the words she chose for her stance against the EU and for the Trump administration!

[Arakan]

26 minutes ago, Hereward said:

Arakan: "The EU has all the abilities to become a military superpower to defend itself. A combined future military force of let's say Germany (including building up our own nuclear device), France, the Benelux and the Scandinavian countries has no one to fear in the world. As of 2016 Germany spent 40 billion USD on defense. If the political will is there this could easily go up to 100 billion USD (or more). We have the money but not the will (lapdog mentality so far).

In this sense thank you America for Trump. Now our politicians finally have to wake up and face the post-cold war reality." 

So what? 

Ever closer military union is the way forward . 

[sToNED_CAT]

5 minutes ago, Arakan said:

So what? 

Ever closer military union is the way forward . 

EU will be lucky to survive next 2 years. Talking about ever closer union is a little bit premature... Not to mention that the public finances of core EU countries (except Germany) are in horrible shape. They don't have the money.

[Hereward]

8 minutes ago, Arakan said:

So what? 

So, you denied wanting a German nuclear device up thread, but gave a damned good impression of wanting one in the post I quoted. 

[polishgenius]

4 minutes ago, Arakan said:

Come on it's not that difficult to understand, is it?

Trump clearly builds up an antagonistic position towards the EU and core EU countries. I should not need to spell it out. And Theresa May chose the side of that demagogue...for me she had a clear choice: values of the EU vs. values of that demagogue which are: xenophobia, chauvinism and nationalism. 

It's laughable to defend her! Compare the words she chose for her stance against the EU and for the Trump administration!

If you keep using Trumpian tactics like that in your arguments, people aren't going to talk to you anymore. Saying that Theresa May isn't siding with Donald Trump against the EU isn't defending Theresa May. They're both in positions of opposition to the EU, but those positions are nothing to do with each other and her sucking up to him only has to do with it in the very broad sense that, with Britain leaving the EU, she feels the need to protect and create other alliances.

 

Her position is only antagonistic because she feels that's the best way to get Britain a good deal, and while I think she's completely wrong about that and everything else about the way she's doing it, attitudes like yours being propagated around Europe aren't going to do anything to change her mind.

[Arakan]

5 minutes ago, sToNED_CAT said:

EU will be lucky to survive next 2 years. Talking about ever closer union is a little bit premature... Not to mention that the public finances of core EU countries (except Germany) are in horrible shape. They don't have the money.

The EU will survive and I expect it will get even stronger. At least there is a huge chance. So far the EU was always the nice guy and ignored far too much. It far too much ignored the rise of xenophobia racism and nationalism in Eastern European governments (e.g. Hungary, Poland). The behavior towards refugees a good example. 

People should get one thing: 2016 was the beginn of a new era. One the hand European core values (solidarity, human rights, working together), on the other Trump/Brexit values (xenophobia, nationalism, chauvinism). Every European country can choose now which direction they wanna choose. But the hell will freeze before Hungary or Poland will leave the EU. 

Time that the EU takes the gloves off and fights for its values. First step is to tell Theresa May that the U.K. will lose free access to the common market and any privileged treatment compared to say China if freedom of movement is not accepted.