UK Politics: The Overton Defenestration

[Chaircat Meow]

7 minutes ago, mormont said:

Case in point.

1.3m people sign a petition and people have to find a reason why it doesn't count. They're Muslims. They're students. They're serial petition signers. They were already angry at Trump. It's the exact same story with the demonstrations at US airports, the same list of excuses.

The irony is that the people making these comments are the first to lecture the left in both countries about dismissing the views of what they've recently decided are the 'right' sort of people, ie working class white men. Some voices count, it seems, and some don't.

Well, having an idea what kind of people sign these things is of interest to some of us. It illustrates the geographic/class and educational divisions in the country.

Obviously I disagree with these people and I am pleased they when they get defeated and can't reach beyond their core of support. However, I don't think their/my views don't/shouldn't count.

[Werthead]

Quote

In the end we are not one happy human family. And no one has the moral high ground, other than the naïve idealists, who think we can all just get along for the better of all.

Except, at least relative to any prior period, we are. Outside of the conflict in the Middle East (and that is a direct result of western policy and interference), we are currently living through the most peaceful period of human history The entire western hemisphere is currently free of a declared military conflict since the end of the Colombian Civil War (although violent criminal actions, particularly in Mexico, remain in operation). In the United States you are considerably more likely to be shot by a dog or a toddler (and vastly more likely to be killed by a white dude) then you are to be a victim of terrorism. In the UK you are far more likely to be killed crossing the street or by illness. Terrorist activity in Europe is proceeding at a considerably lower ebb than it was in the 1960s or 1970s, even counting the attacks in Nice and Paris.

It has been useful for some to try to present the world as slipping in to anarchy and a clash of civilisations or religions as currently underway, but this is not really backed up by reality.

[Pebble thats Stubby]

I would have thought that any sizable online petition would have more young and city workers signing as default.  since these petitions are spread and shared via social media.  I think although I admit to having no evidence to support it, that these people have larger friend lists allowing it to be spread to more people much quicker and easier.

 

[Lordsteve666]

Looking at the actual map of where the signatures are coming from it is fairly even across the country with the obvious higher densities in London and the odd more liberal locations like Brighton, Bristol.

Map

So i'd say it's a pretty good representation of the population overall, it certainly isn't just inner city people or students signing it, there are plenty of signatures from rural areas and those areas with quite small Muslim populations.

And social media is literally everywhere these days, the fact people in cities are more closely connected doesn't mean those in rural areas are living in some backward mud hut excluded from this sort of thing. This petition has got a lot of attention over the whole country, as has most of what Trump is doing.

[polishgenius]

2 hours ago, Arakan said:

Leave the personal stuff. I am not your "man". It is not the first time you attacked me, not the content (see you putting me in the AfD corner).

 

What personal stuff? That post was explicitly attacking the content- ie your continued insistence on the May-Trump anti-Europe alliance- and my allegation that you've dabbled with AfD rhetoric (not the same as 'putting you in the AfD corner') was based on things you posted too. That was, admittedly, part of a broader criticism of you as a poster in these threads, but if you'd actually read that criticism rather than seeing the letters 'AfD' and pitching a hissy you'd have known that I was expressing my frustration at being unable to properly engage with your arguments coz you keep changing your positions to score points.

So either make consistent arguments in good faith and we can get on with it, or continue engaging in moving the goalposts, bringing in alternative facts when it suits you, and employing emotive dismissals (your consistent habit of allowing yourself to disregard opposing arguments by claiming that anyone disagreeing must be stupid or, for example, 'can't think long term') and continue to get called out for it.

[Rippounet]

2 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

In the end we are not one happy human family. And no one has the moral high ground, other than the naïve idealists, who think we can all just get along for the better of all.

I don't think it's about "naive idealists" thinking that we can get along for everyone's benefit. I think it's about conservatives still deluding themselves that we can each live in our little corner of the earth, and whisfully thinking that time can be turned back to boot.
Or to simplify: funnily enough, if there's "idealism" somewhere, it's not where you think it is.

[Chaircat Meow]

18 minutes ago, Lordsteve666 said:

Looking at the actual map of where the signatures are coming from it is fairly even across the country with the obvious higher densities in London and the odd more liberal locations like Brighton, Bristol.

Map

So i'd say it's a pretty good representation of the population overall, it certainly isn't just inner city people or students signing it, there are plenty of signatures from rural areas and those areas with quite small Muslim populations.

And social media is literally everywhere these days, the fact people in cities are more closely connected doesn't mean those in rural areas are living in some backward mud hut excluded from this sort of thing. This petition has got a lot of attention over the whole country, as has most of what Trump is doing.

What!

Example. Bethnal Green and Bow, 8,000 signatures from electorate 80,000. Banff and Buchan 930 signatures from electorate 68,000. Talking about 10% vs 1.3% here.

[Lordsteve666]

Just now, Chaircat Meow said:

What!

Example. Bethnal Green and Bow, 8,000 signatures from electorate 80,000. Banff and Buchan 930 signatures from electorate 68,000.

2 examples from hundreds of constituencies.

That hardly proves it's biased or anything.

The majority of the sectors onthe map are at 1-2% of the electorate, which would seem to be in line with a petition where 1-2 million of a population of around 70 million have signed.

[Chaircat Meow]

4 minutes ago, Lordsteve666 said:

2 examples from hundreds of constituencies.

That hardly proves it's biased or anything.

The majority of the sectors onthe map are at 1-2% of the electorate, which would seem to be in line with a petition where 1-2 million of a population of around 70 million have signed.

Another example. Oxford East vs Berwick upon Tweed. 7.5% to 2.3%.

[Chaircat Meow]

Hackney North (Abbot's stomping ground) vs Angus, 11.4% to 1.8%.

 

See what I mean.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

23 hours ago, Arakan said:

I know I know...me again. But please have a read

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/29/merkel-explains-geneva-refugee-convention-to-trump-in-phone-call?CMP=fb_gu

THIS is the kind of response to Mr Trump I would expect from every European leader believing in human rights and human decency...the contrast to the words used by Theresa May in her words to Trump couldn't be bigger. 

On the other hand your local chieftain answered the question why you just need to follow your moral compass southwards if you look for Bavaria on a Germany map. And why people outside the blue white hell don't see much of a difference between the AfD and the CSU.

I know off topic and goading, but I couldn't resist.

[Chaircat Meow]

Word of warning, I seem to have fucked up overall numbers in those seats. The guide on the site gives Hackney 7% signing, to Banff's 1%, Ox East 4.7% to Berwick 1.7%, 6.4 for Bethnal, 1.6 for Angus and so on. Working out total numbers from Wikipedia did not seem to work.

Does not change overall pattern though. Could be difference between overall pop and registered to vote. Not sure.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

On 29.1.2017 at 4:49 PM, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

Had he allowed a free vote, he'd be getting blasted for not respecting the result of the referendum at the national level. He's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.

Meanwhile, the Tory MPs who represent Remain constituencies will be voting to trigger Article 50 - how is this any different from what Corbyn is doing?

I am absolutely in favour of respecting the outcome of the referendum. But it was strategically still a pretty dumb call by Corbyn. He is really solving the Tories problems there. With a free vote Corbyn could have leaned back and enjoyed the show. Now he has to deal with his base that is (un-)surprisingly not really in favour of leave. And he is back in the centre of Labour infights, and he has to explain how him and Labour are not scared of losing voters to UKIP. Ok, now he might have pacified those Labour Leaves on the right, but now he has opened Labour Remain voters for poaching by LibDems. So how was that a smart call?

[williamjm]

5 hours ago, Denvek said:

Her Majesty is 90 years old. If while the President is here, she becomes ill as she was at Christmas, and has to let her son and heir take over her duties for a time, I'm sure that would just be an unfortunate coincidence that nothing could be read into.

While I'm not keen on Trump visiting, it might be worth it for the spectacle of him having to listen to one of Charles' lectures.

I'm also curious how a meeting between Trump and Prince Philip might go. Given how thin-skinned Trump is to any kind of insult and Philip's long track record of insulting people he meets I wonder if Philip might see it as a challenge to see how undiplomatic he could be.

[Pebble thats Stubby]

I think Prince Charles should try to arrange a State visit to the US.

[Hereward]

Only Heads of State make State visits.

[Werthead]

1 hour ago, Hereward said:

Only Heads of State make State visits.

The odds of Charles becoming Head of State in the next 4 years are reasonable, and in the next 8 even higher.

[The guy from the Vale]

5 hours ago, Notone said:

On the other hand your local chieftain answered the question why you just need to follow your moral compass southwards if you look for Bavaria on a Germany map. And why people outside the blue white hell don't see much of a difference between the AfD and the CSU.

I know off topic and goading, but I couldn't resist.

Wait, that's unfair. It's not hell where Arakan or I live, and at least some people here can see that the only reason the CSU is not treated like the AfD is that the CDU needs to pretend those two are not at all alike in order to stay in power (and if there's one thing the CDU is incredibly good at, it's deluding themselves and their voters in order to stay in power...)

[Arakan]

17 hours ago, polishgenius said:

 

What personal stuff? That post was explicitly attacking the content- ie your continued insistence on the May-Trump anti-Europe alliance- and my allegation that you've dabbled with AfD rhetoric (not the same as 'putting you in the AfD corner') was based on things you posted too. That was, admittedly, part of a broader criticism of you as a poster in these threads, but if you'd actually read that criticism rather than seeing the letters 'AfD' and pitching a hissy you'd have known that I was expressing my frustration at being unable to properly engage with your arguments coz you keep changing your positions to score points.

So either make consistent arguments in good faith and we can get on with it, or continue engaging in moving the goalposts, bringing in alternative facts when it suits you, and employing emotive dismissals (your consistent habit of allowing yourself to disregard opposing arguments by claiming that anyone disagreeing must be stupid or, for example, 'can't think long term') and continue to get called out for it.

Polishgenius, what is so hard to understand for you? 

With each passing day, Trump becomes more of an adversary to the EU. Theresa May in her need to make new friends decided to butter up to Trump and his disgusting policies while countries like Canada or the Netherlands show him the proverbial middle finger. 

My opinion is consistent. 

And please spare me that bullshit of "alternative facts"...first you put me in the AfD corner, now this shit. 

Let's agree to disagree on our evaluation of Theresa May's position towards DJT. 

 

[Arakan]

17 hours ago, Notone said:

On the other hand your local chieftain answered the question why you just need to follow your moral compass southwards if you look for Bavaria on a Germany map. And why people outside the blue white hell don't see much of a difference between the AfD and the CSU.

I know off topic and goading, but I couldn't resist.

Let's leave this shit. I don't live in a "blue white hell", far from it. I love my homestate and I think I am allowed to do so  furthermore I can think for myself and don't need to find evth good what someone from the CSU says...

You are not better than rightwings that call the Greens or Linke "cultural marxists" and other nonsense. And using bullshit phrases like "local chieftain" is well bullshit.