In the Shadow of the Status Quo--Fantasy literature and conservativism

[Jo498]

Martin's super-long, but "empty" history is weak and this has been pointed out several times. It is also mostly irrelevant for the books. What matters are roughly 3-400 years, namely that there were a bunch of seperate kingdoms (culturally far too similar for a continent as big as Westeros is supposed to be, this also has been nitpicked by nitpicking nerds) and that these kingdoms were overthrown and united by Targaryen Dragonriders who became the overlords.

And no, the "default setting" of the world is most certainly not 21st century ideals of social justice and diversity. I doubt that there is a default setting of anything. But if there is a core of human societies and mores, that is if one takes features from the more or less documented 4000 years of human history throughout diverse cultures and looks at what is common to them, 20th/21st century (social justice) ideas are about as prevalent as 20th/21st century dental care... heck, 20th/21st Western World ideas and mores are WEIRD in 2016.

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2013/05/weird_psychology_social_science_researchers_rely_too_much_on_western_college.html

[stonebender]

Personally what draws me most to the genre is usually the emotion of the depicted character struggles, as well as the sensory immersion of the invented landscapes.  If epic fantasy is indeed inherently conservative, so be it I guess?  I'll continue to regard The Wizard Knight and Lord of the Rings as two of my favorite books.  Similarly,  K.J. Bishop's brilliant The Etched City captures so much of what I love about epic fantasy despite that many would say it doesn't belong under the epic banner.  Not a book I'd describe as conservative.  Although maybe others could very well make that case in some respects.  I'd be willing to listen.  Fiction to me is more a pool of moving thought than an area of clearly marked camps and territories.   

 

 

[Darth Richard II]

1 hour ago, AncalagonTheBlack said:

Can anyone point me to such a work or author ?

The Traitor Baru whats her face.

[C.T. Phipps]

1 hour ago, Darth Richard II said:

I'm mostly with trackerneil on this one. To zonked to type long on the phone but I also agree with the above that sometimes entertainment is entertainment.

It is but it doesn't just have to be either.

Also, you can be progressive and entertaining too.

"The Lies of Locke Lamora" got an interesting rating from a femiinist blog I follow when she was about to complain only for her to do a double take and realize women were in positions of power and jobs throughout the book and she'd just missed it because she hadn't realized he had done that.

So she gave it an A+.

[Darth Richard II]

2 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

It is but it doesn't just have to be either.

Also, you can be progressive and entertaining too.

"The Lies of Locke Lamora" got an interesting rating from a femiinist blog I follow when she was about to complain only for her to do a double take and realize women were in positions of power and jobs throughout the book and she'd just missed it because she hadn't realized he had done that.

So she gave it an A+.

Oh no, I agree with that too. Cod medicine + crappy phone just are making me thoughts come out weird and incomplete

Also I get what Scott is saying, it has to be done well, but you can say that for dragons too. Nothing pisses me off more than badly done dragons!

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

11 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Oh no, I agree with that too. Cod medicine + crappy phone just are making me thoughts come out weird and incomplete

Also I get what Scott is saying, it has to be done well, but you can say that for dragons too. Nothing pisses me off more than badly done dragons!

Absolutely, hence my Dragon-Ball Z fight in a serious low magic political fantasy.  It doesn't work there.

[HexMachina]

1 hour ago, Darth Richard II said:

The Traitor Baru whats her face.

I was waiting for that one to crop up!  

[Darth Richard II]

9 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

I was waiting for that one to crop up!  

Well it is a good example 

[Altherion]

1 hour ago, C.T. Phipps said:

For those of us who are progressives in real life and actively believe the world should work to become a better more tolerant place and that fiction by nature is an important social force, it's not at all a ridiculous assumption. Fiction is more than just entertainment and should be used as a force for social change.

Do you have any idea how annoying this generally comes off as? I grew up reading books of a society where your position (albeit not for your values) was mandated by the government. There are some people who can pull it off, but they are very rare and they generally do it by using a genre where such propaganda fits in naturally.

Also, keep in mind that such advocacy tends to restrict the work to a specific time and a specific place. A lot of people think that their values are the pinnacle of human understanding and that history will move in their direction, but given that the world has always held multiple radically different cultural groups, it's not at all obvious which one of them (if any!) will prevail. For example, most socialist realism works look pretty silly now and they always looked silly to people from outside of the Communist bloc. A story written without trying to be propaganda is much more likely to carry over to a different culture without grating.

[C.T. Phipps]

1 hour ago, Altherion said:

Do you have any idea how annoying this generally comes off as? I grew up reading books of a society where your position (albeit not for your values) was mandated by the government. There are some people who can pull it off, but they are very rare and they generally do it by using a genre where such propaganda fits in naturally.

Also, keep in mind that such advocacy tends to restrict the work to a specific time and a specific place. A lot of people think that their values are the pinnacle of human understanding and that history will move in their direction, but given that the world has always held multiple radically different cultural groups, it's not at all obvious which one of them (if any!) will prevail. For example, most socialist realism works look pretty silly now and they always looked silly to people from outside of the Communist bloc. A story written without trying to be propaganda is much more likely to carry over to a different culture without grating.

I'm an enemy of censorship in virtually all forms which is something which has actually put me at odds with quite a few of my academic associates who otherwise share my politics. They believe it's a good thing to screen the nastiness of society out of books be it misogyny, racism, or so on. They also believe art should be improved by conforming to values society can get behind. My opinion on the subject is that painting over it doesn't actually get rid of it and the only way to actually get rid of problems like toxic beliefs on race and gender is to have an open discussion on it.

Nevertheless, I've also received hate mail for my books, at least one for every letter which praises me for representing people of the gay community there's a guy who says he feels my work is preaching at them. Specifically, for the fact that there's gay people in the books period or not everyone is white blue eyed men with women who are more than just fanservice. Hell, one letter actually complained about the fact my protagonist (white) had been engaged to a black stand-in for Supergirl. So, yeah, I admit that mail makes me want to be preachy. Except, my preachy is making a conscious effort to include characters who represent my values.

Richard K. Morgan made a big statement in fantasy just because two of his badass grimdark protagonists in A Land Fit For Heroes was gay.

I'm glad he did it.

And yes, it can backfire. The Chronicles of Narnia were, in effect, "ruined" by the fact C.S. Lewis became more concerned with the message than the story.

[C.T. Phipps]

I'm actually quite interested in this:

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

2 hours ago, Altherion said:

Do you have any idea how annoying this generally comes off as? I grew up reading books of a society where your position (albeit not for your values) was mandated by the government. There are some people who can pull it off, but they are very rare and they generally do it by using a genre where such propaganda fits in naturally.

Also, keep in mind that such advocacy tends to restrict the work to a specific time and a specific place. A lot of people think that their values are the pinnacle of human understanding and that history will move in their direction, but given that the world has always held multiple radically different cultural groups, it's not at all obvious which one of them (if any!) will prevail. For example, most socialist realism works look pretty silly now and they always looked silly to people from outside of the Communist bloc. A story written without trying to be propaganda is much more likely to carry over to a different culture without grating.

Could you list some works of "Socialist Realism".  I don't believe I have ever read any.

[Altherion]

23 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Could you list some works of "Socialist Realism".  I don't believe I have ever read any.

Wikipedia has a list of the most characteristic works which generally are not fantasy or science fiction precisely because it is difficult to write in that style outside of a 20th century setting. However, elements of it suffused most officially-published Soviet works written before the late 1980s. For example, the authors of Prisoners of Power (which is a science fiction novel and a pretty good one) were forced to change the last name of the protagonist from a Russian one to a German one because the character did not quite live up to certain communist ideals.

[lokisnow]

6 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Tracker,

For the third time.  I think you are correct.  My only concern is that the progressive element be added well.  I am not assuming it cannot be done.

The point is not a progressive value being added but that most works deeply exclude on very sweeping, unnatural, and unrealistic terms. This sweeping standard is then considered the natural default state, such as you are claiming, when it is actually an extremely distorted profoundly unnatural state.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

5 minutes ago, lokisnow said:

The point is not a progressive value being added but that most works deeply exclude on very sweeping, unnatural, and unrealistic terms. This sweeping standard is then considered the natural default state, such as you are claiming, when it is actually an extremely distorted profoundly unnatural state.

Could you point to where I "claim" conservatism is a natural default state for Fantasy?  I'm expressly agreeing with Tracker that it is not.  I'm simply saying that when people attempt a work of Fantasy that attempts to place emphasis upon "progressive" values those values need to be integral to the world created and not seem shoehorned in.

[C.T. Phipps]

5 minutes ago, lokisnow said:

The point is not a progressive value being added but that most works deeply exclude on very sweeping, unnatural, and unrealistic terms. This sweeping standard is then considered the natural default state, such as you are claiming, when it is actually an extremely distorted profoundly unnatural state.

One interesting thing is the "idyllic" fantasy world which is being railed against. Why Martin gets so much praise is the depiction of the fantasy worlds effectively eliminate the voice of so many other characters. Eliminating peasant characters means that no one really questions the system where they are worked while the nobility benefit. Characters like Cersei underscore matters as well as Catelyn types who just accept the system as is as do Sansas who try to be like Catelyn but become more like Cersei.

[lokisnow]

8 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Could you point to where I "claim" conservatism is a natural default state for Fantasy?  I'm expressly agreeing with Tracker that it is not.  I'm simply saying that when people attempt a work of Fantasy that attempts to place emphasis upon "progressive" values those values need to be integral to the world created and not seem shoehorned in.

We'll you're saying right here that a world that is not your exclusive preferred state has to prove that having women or gays needs to meet a separate and unequal standard of "need to be integral" for you to accept it as valid.

So we are saying why should ANYONE have to prove that the existence of gay characters or women in a story meet the standard of "need to be integral". Saying an author can only include gay characters or women characters if they proactively meet your integral standard is absurd.

[Darth Richard II]

2 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Richard K. Morgan made a big statement in fantasy just because two of his badass grimdark protagonists in A Land Fit For Heroes was gay.

 

 

I'm going to have a disagree with you on that one. Not that I;m not glad he did it or find anything wrong with it, bu it pretty much had zero impact in the community. As stated before they're had been lots of fantasy with gay main characters before. By the time The Steel Remains came out, well, nothing about that book was particularly ground breaking, despite what certain fans want you to think.

[Darth Richard II]

26 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Could you point to where I "claim" conservatism is a natural default state for Fantasy?  I'm expressly agreeing with Tracker that it is not.  I'm simply saying that when people attempt a work of Fantasy that attempts to place emphasis upon "progressive" values those values need to be integral to the world created and not seem shoehorned in.

Yeah that's why i find The Traitor to be such a gods awful book. The progressive values are beaten over your head like a rock and make zero sense in the context of the story. I'm all for more diverse and inclusive fantasy and what not, but I don't want it to suck.

 

[The Marquis de Leech]

9 hours ago, TrackerNeil said:

You speak as if diversity were something alien that must be fit into a story. Diversity is the default setting of the world, and stories that exclude women, people of color and sexual minorities are actually pushing back against that. I don't understand why we can have dragons and ice walls and dire wolves, but we dare not imagine a world in which the structures of society honor the natural diversity of humanity.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with writing a fantasy society which honours the natural diversity of humanity (I've sort of done that myself - though I suspect no-one's going to want to move to the Viiminian Empire any time soon). My point is that if you are going to write that sort of society, you should probably steer clear of Faux Medievalism and go for something where the social psychology fits better.