Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 2

[Kingmonkey]

36 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

The other possibility is that Ned is comparing his journey and his goal, and Jon Arryn's journey and his goal, with something that Rhaegar may have been doing prior to the rebellion, looking for royal bastards.  You see a parallel between the brothel and the tower of joy, but I think a stronger parallel exists between the events of the tower of joy and of MMD's tent during the blood ritual.  A ritual that possibly contributed to the introduction of dragons back into the realm.  It's at least strongly hinted that the birth of Dany's dragons may have been influenced by the lives that were sacrificed, preceding their birth, such as her unborn son.  If Summerhall was the place that Rhaegar loved the best, and if Rhaegar was influenced by the idea that "the dragon has three heads"  then it isn't a big stretch to conclude that Rhaegar was interested in the return of dragons.  And it isn't a big stretch to conclude that the return of dragons included the need for sacrifices with royal blood.

You're very much preaching to the choir here, FFR. Of course it parallels the MMD tent ritual, as that also parallels the ToJ, and many other events. I've gone into this at great length in my Puppets of Fire and Ice essay (link in sig). 

However, in this context, the link is more directly with the ToJ. This is Ned's journey, and the ToJ was part of Ned's journey. Indeed, MMD's tent ritual hadn't actually happened yet, though I have speculated that it might have caused ripples in time that echo in the past as well as the future. In this case however, we have Jaime accosting Ned to demand the return of his sibling, who was kidnapped on the road close to Harrenhal. At the ToJ, Ned came to demand the return of his sibling, who was kidnapped on the road close to Harrenhal. 

As for Rhaegar being compared to Jon Arryn, well there's no reason to think that Jon Arryn was the kind of man who frequented brothels -- only that he visited this one, once. After all, Ned was following directly in Arryn's footsteps, and I hardly think he'd consider himself the kind of man who frequented brothels either. If Rhaegar was indeed looking for royal bastards, we have no hint of that information yet, nothing to suggest that Ned was aware of it, and nothing in Ned's thought process reflects it before he thinks of Rhaegar.

[Voice]

7 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

So why does Ned think about Rhaegar as being someone unlikely to visit brothels?

 

7 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

The other possibility is that Ned is comparing his journey and his goal, and Jon Arryn's journey and his goal

 

6 hours ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

Well, you nearly answer your own question here. What is relevant about the brothel is, as you say "that Ned has just visited" a brothel. No need to cook up any other reason for him to be thinking about brothels.

 

Respected debaters, I'd like to propose an even simpler explanation. The thought that brings to mind Rhaegar Targaryen in Ned's mind is not the brothel, it's Jon Arryn. From the book:

 

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"Why would Jon Arryn take a sudden interest in the king's baseborn children?"

The short man gave a sodden shrug. "He was the King's Hand. Doubtless Robert asked him to see that they were provided for."

Ned was soaked through to the bone, and his soul had grown cold. "It had to be more than that, or why kill him?"

Littlefinger shook the rain from his hair and laughed. "Now I see. Lord Arryn learned that His Grace had filled the bellies of some whores and fishwives, and for that he had to be silenced. Small wonder. Allow a man like that to live, and next he's like to blurt out that the sun rises in the east."

There was no answer Ned Stark could give to that but a frown. For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen.

 

Ned is thinking (as the reader is encouraged to do) that Jon Arryn's ambitions were the cause of his death, rather than LF's ambitions. He is slow as molasses, but he does rightly dismiss LF's suggestion. He then frowns, reflecting upon the dubious cause of Jon Arryn's death.

 

This makes him remember Rhaegar. Another man who was killed for a dubious cause. I think many here will agree that Rhaegar did not abduct and rape a fourteen year old. If we're right, Rhaegar didn't deserve that warhammer. If he did, well, the warhammer was a kindness.

 

Anyway, I think the context for Ned's Rhaegar rememberings are quite clear. It wasn't the babe in the brothel. It was Jon Arryn's dubious cause of death.

[PrettyPig]

I'd also like to point out that series-wide we have quite a few subplots circling around brothels/whores in general, and quite a few main characters who have some pretty strong feelings about both.   IT might be worthwhile to reexamine Tyrion's escapades with Shae, Ned's fury with Littlefinger over secreting Cat in a brothel plus this visit to Robert's newest bastard borne by a whore, and Tywin's callous dismissal of "wherever whores go".     Bastard offspring of kings, children born to men filled with lusts, wives and concubines being hidden in brothels, lingering shame and guilt and failed promises.    

Ned and Petyr Baelish are riding to a brothel in KL. "The streets of King's Landing were dark and deserted. The rain had driven everyone under their roofs. It beat down on Ned's head, warm as blood and relentless as old guilts."     Ned thinks of Lyanna & Robert; Robert will never keep to one bed.     "The girl had been so young Ned had not dared to ask her age. No doubt she'd been a virgin; the better brothels could always find a virgin, if the purse was fat enough."    Barra's mother asks Ned to tell Robert to visit her and the baby.   "Tell him how beautiful she is." "I will," Ned had promised her.    Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows.    He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them."    Barra's mother says she is faithful to Robert and will wait for him.  " "I will tell him, child, and I promise you, Barra shall not go wanting." She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart out of him. Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own.    If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?"   Lusts that have to be sated by visiting whores.   "For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not."

There's a common thread weaving through multiple recollections and associations here - I think it's a thread worth tugging upon.

[wolfmaid7]

Nice discussions everyone and one that lends different readings to the same text....All plausible and possible.

Next thread.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

11 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

There's a common thread weaving through multiple recollections and associations here - I think it's a thread worth tugging upon.

A fair question, and one that had occurred to me as well. Reading the passage with no preconceived notions of Jon's parentage -  a reader who's into drawing parallels would be more than forgiven for wondering if Jon had been born in a brothel.

And who knows... that could still turn out to be the case. 

[Frey family reunion]

8 minutes ago, Kingmonkey said:

You're very much preaching to the choir here, FFR. Of course it parallels the MMD tent ritual, as that also parallels the ToJ, and many other events. I've gone into this at great length in my Puppets of Fire and Ice essay (link in sig). 

However, in this context, the link is more directly with the ToJ. This is Ned's journey, and the ToJ was part of Ned's journey. Indeed, MMD's tent ritual hadn't actually happened yet, though I have speculated that it might have caused ripples in time that echo in the past as well as the future. In this case however, we have Jaime accosting Ned to demand the return of his sibling, who was kidnapped on the road close to Harrenhal. At the ToJ, Ned came to demand the return of his sibling, who was kidnapped on the road close to Harrenhal. 

As for Rhaegar being compared to Jon Arryn, well there's no reason to think that Jon Arryn was the kind of man who frequented brothels -- only that he visited this one, once. After all, Ned was following directly in Arryn's footsteps, and I hardly think he'd consider himself the kind of man who frequented brothels either. If Rhaegar was indeed looking for royal bastards, we have no hint of that information yet, nothing to suggest that Ned was aware of it, and nothing in Ned's thought process reflects it before he thinks of Rhaegar.

No we don't know what Rhaegar was up to, we only know that shortly after the birth of Aegon, Rhaegar and six of his buddies ride out from King's Landing on some sort of mission.  We know that Rhaegar has almost a psychic connection with Summerhall.  Summerhall is linked to an obsession with dragons and tragedy and grief.  We know that Eddard seems to link their war with the Targaryens with the murder of children, even though oddly enough the only child murders we are aware of are those committed by Robert's allies, the Lannisters.  

We believe that he takes pains in hiding Jon in Winterfell, we presume it's to hide his true identity from Robert, yet oddly enough he appears to have no anxiety about Robert coming for a surprise visit to Winterfell, nor does he make an effort to send Jon on a temporary trip away from Winterfell.  

We don't really know about Eddard's feelings towards Rhaegar.  He never seems to condemn Robert for his killing of Rhaegar.  The closest that we come is his thought that Rhaegar probably didn't frequent brothels.

The image of Rhaegar and his six riders leaving King's Landing brought to my mind the images of the Wild Hunt.  These images are further reinforced from Jaime's fever dreams of Rhaegar and the King's Guard.  So I did a little research to see if the Wild Hunt has ever been associated with children.  And I did find something interesting, it is a tale from the Scottish town of Barra (sound familiar).  Where local folklore had a group of faeries associated with the Wild Hunt, abducting a child to steal his soul:

http://www.cassandraeason.com/folklore_legend/the-wild-hunt.htm

 

 

[Winter Rose Crown]

10 hours ago, mormont said:

[mod] OK folks, let's lay off the personal sniping, including comments about 'this board' or 'this thread' or other users and so on. We're here to discuss the books, not to discuss each other. Stick to comments that are on-topic: that topic does not include what you think of other participants in the discussion. [/mod]

Serious question, why is it okay to say horribly misogynistic things but not okay to call someone out on it? And if we aren't allowed to call someone on it, why isn't it being moderated? Robert raped Cersei... more than once. And they're being used to compare what happens when you "put a padlock on your pussy". The term itself is vulgar and unnecessary but telling him so is breaking the rules?

[wolfmaid7]

1 hour ago, Winter Rose Crown said:

Serious question, why is it okay to say horribly misogynistic things but not okay to call someone out on it? And if we aren't allowed to call someone on it, why isn't it being moderated? Robert raped Cersei... more than once. And they're being used to compare what happens when you "put a padlock on your pussy". The term itself is vulgar and unnecessary but telling him so is breaking the rules?

I'm female Winter rose crown by the way and have no problems with the usage and using such such phrases.

It also has cultural connotations.If you know anyone from the afro-carribbean community ask them about it.

 

[Voice]

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I'm female Winter rose crown by the way

Prove it!

LOL sorry... I'll go now.

 

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and have no problems with the usage and using such such phrases.

I have a problem with the name @Winter Rose Crown itself, as it seems to glorify pedophilia.

Rhaegar was a married man-grown of 22. Lyanna was 14. 

 

Quote

It also has cultural connotations.If you know anyone from the afro-carribbean community ask them about it.