Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 2

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

5 hours ago, SFDanny said:

I was waiting for it to be posted by some one who actually supports this theory, but If I have time this morning perhaps I'll try to post a critique of the gaping holes in the essay.

Perhaps post a link to it in this thread oncr you've posted it?  

[SFDanny]

10 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Perhaps post a link to it in this thread oncr you've posted it?  

I will. I won't be able to do so until tonight.

Tuesday is Italian class with my daughter, so it will be late, sorry 

[Kingmonkey]

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Indeed, but is he simply speaking [inwardly] to Rhaegar not being a Falstaff sowing his little seeds everywhere, or is he speaking to Rhaegar being a decent family man, faithful to his lady wife.

The subject of marital fidelity is never raised. Which is rather my point. Does Lyanna say that marriage does not change a man's nature, or that love does not change a man's nature?

Lyanna does not like the idea of Robert cheating on her, which she is sure he will do. As to Lyanna's opinions on the holy sanctity of the institution of marriage, we have literally nothing. Not a sausage. 

Perhaps we can make more progress by taking a different angle at this. So...

Why Rhaegar?

Ned does not generally think about Rhaegar. He claims he hasn't really thought about Rhaegar in years. That being the case, what causes him to think about Rhaegar in this context? Why not Arthur Dayne, or Simon Toyne, or Mycah's father, or Moonboy for all I know? What's on Ned's mind to make him think about Rhaegar of all people at that time, when visiting a brothel which he does not think of as being the kind of place associated with Rhaegar? 

Clearly something in his chain of thoughts brought Rhaegar to mind. He's been visiting a brothel to see Robert's bastard child, and doing so brought Lyanna and Jon Snow to his mind. That would surely be a good pointer to the RB+L hypothesis, right? But then he thinks about how this tendency of Robert's is something Lyanna was not happy about, and then he thinks about how Rhaegar didn't have that tendency. 

Surely all these connected thought are... you know... connected?

 

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

2 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

I think they are referencing this article: http://www.hypable.com/game-of-thrones-star-alfie-allen-theon-just-wants-approval-from-his-family/

But Alfie is far from clear or explicit on what he means.

Alfie-canon, via So Spake Alfie. Nice.

Thanks, Sly!

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

52 minutes ago, Kingmonkey said:

Why Rhaegar?

Ned does not generally think about Rhaegar. He claims he hasn't really thought about Rhaegar in years. That being the case, what causes him to think about Rhaegar in this context? Why not Arthur Dayne, or Simon Toyne, or Mycah's father, or Moonboy for all I know? What's on Ned's mind to make him think about Rhaegar of all people at that time...? 

Best guess: the murder of children, and its prevention. That would be the topic at the front of Ned's mind, at that point in time - beginning in the previous chapter:

Quote

“Robert, I ask you, what did we rise against Aerys Targaryen for, if not to put an end to the murder of children?”

“To put an end to Targaryens!” the king growled.

So Ned has just resigned the Handship over this dispute, and is now touring a whorehouse to meet Robert's newest child. There we have Ned promising to protect little Barra, then reflecting on his earlier promise to protect Jon Snow, and on Robert's own lack of concern for his lust-born bastards. You've got Littlefinger recounting a list of those bastards, and noting that several had been hunted down and killed by House Lannister (Cersei, in this case). 

Ned then asks (essentially) why Cersei would be so worried over Robert's baseborn children... and then, suddenly:

Quote

"...for the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not."

So Ned is making connections here, regarding children killed by House Lannister, and wondering why the Lannisters would concern themselves with Robert's baseborn bastards the same way they'd been so concerned over Rhaegar's children. He begins to wonder whether Lannister soldiers ever went looking for Rhaegar's bastards in the whorehouses if King's Landing... then realizes that wasn't likely to have been a problem, in Rhaegar's case.

Possibly, Ned would have saved us a chapter or two of suspense, had he been allowed to continue his train of thought, as he appears to have been on the very cusp of putting 2 and 2 together and solving the mystery of Robert's children. But in true GRRM style, we have an Interruption of Ice and Fire.  Oh well...

[JNR]

41 minutes ago, Kingmonkey said:

The subject of marital fidelity is never raised.

cough

Quote

"Robert will never keep to one bed," Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm's End.

The event of her betrothal is exactly what leads to her objection to Robert, as you are well aware.

[J. Stargaryen]

Alfie says GRRM told him who Jon's parents are and his train of thought leads him to the Targaryens. I wonder what the reaction would be if his train of thought had led him to the Daynes or Baratheons, for example.

A couple of takeaways aside from the obvious RLJ: 1) Never tell Alfie Allen a secret. 2) GRRM traded the secret of Jon's parentage very cheaply. Something that doesn't make a lot of sense to me if R+L≠J. If, on the other hand, the truth of Jon's parentage is the worst kept secret in fandom, I can buy GRRM telling Alfie in return for answering some questions about his sister.

Here's the original interview, btw - http://www.vulture.com/2012/06/game-of-thrones-theon-alfie-allen-interview.html

[Kingmonkey]

4 minutes ago, JNR said:

cough

The event of her betrothal is exactly what leads to her objection to Robert, as you are well aware.

Yes, but that doesn't tell us anything about her opinions of marriage, does it? That is the context, not the subject.

The subject is her opinion on the nature of Robert. However she is not discussing the nature of marriage. She does not say anything about the institution. She makes no statements that have any bearing on a loveless marriage. She doesn't even mention the word.

Rhaegar does not have this same nature. There is zero indication that he sleeps around, that he would, as Ned puts it, "swear undying love and forget them before evenfall." There is nothing anywhere that suggests that Rhaegar is a "man of huge appetites, a man who knew how to take his pleasures." Everything we have of Rhaegar suggests this is not so. When Ned directly addresses this issue, whether Rhaegar would frequent brothels, his opinion is clear: he would not.

Rhaegar does not share this nature that Lyanna objects to in Robert. Rhaegar is continually drawn as a complete antithesis to Robert. How then does it make any sense for people to apply to Rhaegar Lyanna's objections to Robert?

Yes, Rhaegar has a wife and kids. And? He does not have Robert's nature, and it is that -- quite specifically NOT the fact that Robert already has a kid -- that she's objecting to.

Let's put this another way. The argument being put forwards here amounts to claiming that no woman who would be unhappy to be married off to a man who she believed would repeatedly cheat on her throughout their marriage could be interested in a man who had kids from a prior relationship. Can anyone honestly say they believe that? I'm pretty sure the answer is no. 

 

 

[Sly Wren]

24 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Alfie says GRRM told him who Jon's parents are and his train of thought leads him to the Targaryens. I wonder what the reaction would be if his train of thought had led him to the Daynes or Baratheons, for example.

A couple of takeaways aside from the obvious RLJ: 1) Never tell Alfie Allen a secret. 2) GRRM traded the secret of Jon's parentage very cheaply. Something that doesn't make a lot of sense to me if R+L≠J. If, on the other hand, the truth of Jon's parentage is the worst kept secret in fandom, I can buy GRRM telling Alfie in return for answering some questions about his sister.

Here's the original interview, btw - http://www.vulture.com/2012/06/game-of-thrones-theon-alfie-allen-interview.html

He also goes on to the Wars of the Roses and inbreeding. After the "bit of a Luke Skywalker" thing--just how much qualifies as a "bit?"

And earlier in the interview, he characterizes Theon's talk with Luwin being "very Richard III"--I'm trying to think of a scene in Richard III that makes sense, but am struggling to make anything fit with the Luwin scene. Let alone "very Richard III."

Just not really sure we want to be in the business of parsing a metaphor chosen by an actor who talked to Martin and then came up with his own comparison, leaving us with no way of assessing whether or not the comparison is apt. (She says, fully aware that she just did just that and thus has no limb to stand on).

Seems like sticking to the books and SSMs is likely to be less messy, no?

1 hour ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

Alfie-canon, via So Spake Alfie. Nice.

Thanks, Sly!

[Kingmonkey]

56 minutes ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

So Ned has just resigned the Handship over this dispute, and is now touring a whorehouse to meet Robert's newest child. There we have Ned promising to protect little Barra, then reflecting on his earlier promise to protect Jon Snow, and on Robert's own lack of concern for his lust-born bastards. You've got Littlefinger recounting a list of those bastards, and noting that several had been hunted down and killed by House Lannister (Cersei, in this case). 

This is a nice line of argument, thanks. However, I think you have things a bit back to front. Ned didn't promise to protect Barra's child, he promised to make sure she'd be well provided for:

Quote

Good to you, Ned thought hollowly. "I will tell him, child, and I promise you, Barra shall not go wanting."

It's not until after they have left the brothel that the idea of murdering children is brought up:

Quote

He gave Ned a sideways glance. "I've also heard whispers that Robert got a pair of twins on a serving wench at Casterly Rock, three years ago when he went west for Lord Tywin's tourney. Cersei had the babes killed, and sold the mother to a passing slaver. Too much an affront to Lannister pride, that close to home."
 
Ned Stark grimaced. Ugly tales like that were told of every great lord in the realm. He could believe it of Cersei Lannister readily enough . . . but would the king stand by and let it happen? The Robert he had known would not have, but the Robert he had known had never been so practiced at shutting his eyes to things he did not wish to see.

Note that the idea of Lannister soldiers visiting brothels to hunt down the children is not in play here. "Too much an affront to Lannister pride, that close to home."

The situation with Rhaegar's children is different -- they were not an affront to Lannister pride, but a threat to Lannister power. Yet we already have this from Ned:

Quote

Cersei could not have been pleased by her lord husband's by-blows, yet in the end it mattered little whether the king had one bastard or a hundred. Law and custom gave the baseborn few rights. Gendry, the girl in the Vale, the boy at Storm's End, none of them could threaten Robert's trueborn children …

Baelish's mocking sarcasm reinforces the point, and Ned doesn't disagree. On the contrary:

Quote

There was no answer Ned Stark could give to that but a frown. For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not.

So here we have Ned not having an answer to Baelish dismissing the idea that the bastards were a secret that people would be killed to protect, immediately preceding his thought about Rhaegar. 

56 minutes ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

Possibly, Ned would have saved us a chapter or two of suspense, had he been allowed to continue his train of thought, as he appears to have been on the very cusp of putting 2 and 2 together and solving the mystery of Robert's children. But in true GRRM style, we have an Interruption of Ice and Fire.  Oh well...

There's one critical piece of information that Ned does not have at this point: that Cersei's children are also bastards. He's not able to solve the problem without that information, because without that information, he has to accede to Baelish's point, that Robert's bastards are not a threat. There is no reason to kill them, or Jon Arryn for investigating them. The parallel to Rhaegar's kids being killed does not hold, because as far as he can see Robert's bastards were not the threat that Rhaegar's were. 

If this sudden thought about Rhaegar occurred after Sansa's accidental hint that the bastards were, after all, a threat to Lannister power, I think your argument would be very strong. Positioned where it is, immediately after the idea of them being a threat has been dismissed, I don't think it works. 

[JNR]

29 minutes ago, Kingmonkey said:

Yes, but that doesn't tell us anything about her opinions of marriage, does it? That is the context, not the subject.

Sure it is.  The subject's quite a simple and marriage-centric one.  Track all the italics:

1. Rickard has shoved her into an arranged marriage, as heads of Great Houses are prone to do with daughters in this series.

2. She isn't crazy about Rickard's choice of husbands for her, because she is a clear-sighted girl and she knows Robert will never keep to one bed.  She sees past his handsome face and maiden's fantasy muscles and she perceives all the girls he will seduce after they are married.

3. Ned tries to comfort her by suggesting he'll be faithful now that he's engaged to the girl he loves.

4. Lyanna rolls her eyes at Big Brother's naive notion of his best friend and assures him that merely getting betrothed is not going to change Robert's tendencies in this matter.

If we ask ourselves what she would think of Rhaegar proposing himself as an alternative, it's perfectly plain that she would have even stronger objections.  

"You are already married and the father of a child with another on the way," she might possibly have said,  chuckling.  "Go jerk off in a cold shower, sober up, and we'll pretend this never happened."

In such a situation Rhaegar would be a man who stood up in front of gods and men and married into Bed A (Elia's), yet here he would be, manifestly trying hard to talk himself into Bed B (Lyanna's).  "Keeping to one bed" would clearly not be Rhaegar's nature if he's doing a thing like that. 

I also suggest with confidence that if she could see Robert's infidelity coming a mile away, she could even more easily have seen, and shuddered at the thought of, the horrendous complications involved in becoming the Other Woman in the life of a married crown prince. 

Those who perceive her brain as having switched off because she was (to use a memorable phrase applied to Sansa) "wet with love" are missing the reality that Lyanna was far more mature than that.  She wasn't like Sansa at all in this department; she was more like Arya, and that's one thing the majority of the RLJ camp has gotten right over the years. I bet you'd agree with me about that much at least, KM.

[Kingmonkey]

27 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Just not really sure we want to be in the business of parsing a metaphor chosen by an actor who talked to Martin and then came up with his own comparison, leaving us with no way of assessing whether or not the comparison is apt. (She says, fully aware that she just did just that and thus has no limb to stand on).

Let's also keep in mind that Alfie Allen said he'd only read the first two books. Apart from the revelation from GRRM, he knows rather less than we do and that's bound to colour his interpretations. It's fun to speculate, but I don't think we can conclude too much from the Darth Vader thing. Sure, it could be that he was hinting that the black-armoured guy who Jon believed fought against his father in the Clone Wars Robert's Rebellion turns out to be Jon's dad, but for all we know GRRM told him it was Howland Reed and he just got a bit mixed up who that was.

[Kingmonkey]

4 minutes ago, JNR said:

Sure it is.  The subject's quite a simple and marriage-centric one.  Track all the italics:

How about quoting where Lyanna even mentions marriage? Context is not subject! Yes, the context is Lyanna's betrothal to Robert. However, she does not say a single thing about her opinion on the institution of marriage.  There is no reason to believe that she sees marriage vows as being eternally inviolable, regardless of love. On the contrary, it's love that she places importance on here. There is no indication that she would have any problem with a man who had already married, only one who's nature was to cheat. 

4 minutes ago, JNR said:

In such a situation Rhaegar would be a man who stood up in front of gods and men and married into Bed A (Elia's), yet here he would be, manifestly trying hard to talk himself into Bed B (Lyanna's).  "Keeping to one bed" would clearly not be Rhaegar's nature if he's doing a thing like that. 

Let's look at that again, without the selective removal of the word "never".

Rhaegar is married into Bed A, yet he's trying to talk himself into Bed B. Is that NEVER keeping to one bed?

No.

If you live in New Jersey, and at the age of 25 you up sticks and move to Rome, you are not staying in one place. If you spend the rest of your life in Rome, would it be remotely reasonable to say that you are NEVER staying in one place? 

No.

[J. Stargaryen]

2 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

He also goes on to the Wars of the Roses and inbreeding. After the "bit of a Luke Skywalker" thing--just how much qualifies as a "bit?"

And earlier in the interview, he characterizes Theon's talk with Luwin being "very Richard III"--I'm trying to think of a scene in Richard III that makes sense, but am struggling to make anything fit with the Luwin scene. Let alone "very Richard III."

Just not really sure we want to be in the business of parsing a metaphor chosen by an actor who talked to Martin and then came up with his own comparison with no way of assessing of whether or not the comparison is apt. (She says, fully aware that she just did just that and thus has no limb to stand on).

I'm not parsing a metaphor, I'm pointing out a tell. Alfie says GRRM told him who Jon's parents are and this leads to a train of thought about the Targaryens. Coincidence?

2 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Seems like sticking to the books and SSMs is likely to be less messy, no?

I agree that it creates even more of a mess if you don't believe RLJ.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

1 hour ago, Kingmonkey said:

This is a nice line of argument, thanks. However, I think you have things a bit back to front. Ned didn't promise to protect Barra's child, he promised to make sure she'd be well provided for:

I can go with provision, sure. I think, in this case, the verbiage boils down to essentially the same thing. Except that Barra is the child's name, not the mother's.

Quote

It's not until after they have left the brothel that the idea of murdering children is brought up:

Actually, the topic of murdering children was raised before Ned ever entered the brothel - as I pointed out in my previous post. The brothel visit occurs on the very same day that Ned refused to participate in the murder of Daenerys and her unborn child, and consequently resigned the Handship. So this is an idea that's already on Ned's mind.

Quote

There's one critical piece of information that Ned does not have at this point: that Cersei's children are also bastards. He's not able to solve the problem without that information, because without that information, he has to accede to Baelish's point, that Robert's bastards are not a threat. There is no reason to kill them, or Jon Arryn for investigating them. The parallel to Rhaegar's kids being killed does not hold, because as far as he can see Robert's bastards were not the threat that Rhaegar's were. 

The issue, at this point, is not whether Robert's bastards are threats, or whether anyone has reason to kill them. It is simply that they have been killed, and that Lannisters have killed them. Remember, Ned does not believe that it is ever reasonable or acceptable to kill children. And he is unwilling to agree that even Daenerys or her child should be considered "threats." 

The question was why Ned recalls Rhaegar at this particular moment in the story - the same day he argues with Robert over murdered children and visits Robert's new child, and immediately after Littlefinger informs him that Cersei had a couple of Robert's kids killed.

Best guess is that when Ned considers a situation involving dead babies and Lannisters - he is reminded of Rhaegar.  Perhaps this is the first time he's ever thought that Rhaegar and Robert might have something in common. 

[wolfmaid7]

10 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

We know the context in which Ned was thinking about this though: Robert's infidelity. Ned has just visited a brothel and found one of Robert's many bastard offspring. In that context he is reminded of Lyanna's observation that infidelity was inherent to Robert's nature.

It's a point against Robert for a very simple reason. It's the single piece of information we have that explicitly tells us anything about Lyanna's attitude towards Robert, and it's negative. It's only a point against Robert because it's a single point of data, but when that single point of negative data is the sole direct testimony, that shouldn't be dismissed.

Ned's observation about Rhaegar is in the same context as his memory of Lyanna's observation about Robert. He visits a brothel where Robert has been sowing his wild oats, and comes out thinking about Robert's infidelity in the round. He then thinks of Rhaegar as being someone who, unlike Robert, would not frequent brothels. 

I disagree with that statement that  Ned was thinking of that  in the context of Little finger's statement and more largely the King having bastards all over Westeros.But you are forgeting an important  variable- Lyanna.She's no longer in the equation.Ned is using something Lyanna said which proved true in the case of Cersie.It doesn't matter that Lyanna said it.Her relationship Robert isn't on trial so to speak.

We will have to disagree on the latter as well,imo Ned's statement about Rhaegar was a "backhanded compliment" and not a comparison between Robert and Rhaegar.

10 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

No, true enough -- but she had been stolen from him. If someone steals your car it's still legally yours, but it's no longer in your possession. 

We aren't speaking about a car and "it no longer being in your possession" is not the same as it "being your possesion" its still yours.Its just not in your possassion.

10 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

Oh but he did have her before, in life. Robert himself believes that Rhaegar raped her half a hundred times. 

I'm not sure about Robert's real belief with that statement. Does he genuinely believe that he will be reunited with Lyanna in the afterlife, that they will be together there in the way they were supposed to be in life? Possibly. It's also possible the statement is fatalistic pathos. I'm not convinced that Robert didn't at least suspect that Lyanna may have actually preferred Rhaegar to himself, though he's not the kind of man who would admit that. The reading there is pretty ambiguous, and I'm sure intentionally so. Robert is certainly a rather tragic figure.

Yeah Robert does believe that and i'm sure its part of his extended thought that's why i said in Robert's mind Rhaegar has her now to do whatever he wanted.Except now in death Robert can rescue her from him where he didn't do it before.

I find it unrealistic that it didn't cross Robert's mind once or maybe even twice.Rhaegar's "supposed" actions totally goes against what he had portrayed and again i think that is an element that gave the rumour life. 

I like mostly everyone in Westeros at that time doesn't believe Rhaegar would abduct and rape Lyanna.I follow that of him through.I also don't believe based on his characteristic that he would runaway with his cousin's bethrothed and not show himself until shit had knocked the fan off the ceiling.

10 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

Ok, so it's not something you plucked entirely out of the blue, I concede that point. However one person briefly mentioning it as a possibility hardly justifies your suggestion that "the fallback go to response is always she's a hyprocrite", does it? Particularly in direct response to an argument that is entirely contrary to that response?

It has been the fallback response on this forum which is what i was reffering to by extention.But you are correct one person mentioning it "here" sould not have warrented that comment and for that i apologize.

 

10 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

I think you've misunderstood Baelish's silencing comment. There was no mention of people letting things slip in brothels, that's just not part of the conversation here.

Baelish's sarcastic comment was that Arryn must have been silenced so that he didn't let slip that Robert had gotten a prostitute pregnant, making the point that it was hardly a secret, and there was no need to silence someone for it. "Allow a man like that to live, and next he's like to blurt out that the sun rises in the east." Nobody cares if a man blurts out that the sun rises in the east, because everyone already knows. Nobody cares if someone reveals that Robert frequents brothels and fills Westeros with bastards, because everyone already knows. People don't get murdered to stop them revealing information that everyone already knows.  

The person who Ned thought of visiting brothels was Robert.

The person who Ned thought of as unlikely to visit brothels was Rhaegar.

That's a direct comparison between Rhaegar and Robert. There's really no other sensible interpretation. There is simply nobody else in play who does frequent brothels.

 

Yes i know that it was a sarcastic remark,i know that Ned achknowledges it as a sarcastic remark.I'm saying sarcastic or not, it was what triggered Ned's thought about Rhaegar.That thought was in the context of someone saying something that really shouldn't be a big deal.

I disagree with the bolded not for what it says but for what it might mean. Neds thought about Rhaegar with respect to that ,imo  was a "backhanded compliment "

[wolfmaid7]

2 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

Let's look at that again, without the selective removal of the word "never".

Rhaegar is married into Bed A, yet he's trying to talk himself into Bed B. Is that NEVER keeping to one bed?

No.

If you live in New Jersey, and at the age of 25 you up sticks and move to Rome, you are not staying in one place. If you spend the rest of your life in Rome, would it be remotely reasonable to say that you are NEVER staying in one place? 

No.

Yes it is?Unless i'm mistaken there's no indication that Rhaegar planned to put away Elia.Or that something in Lyanna wouldn't chide herself for being a hyprocrite.

 

33 minutes ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

Best guess is that when Ned considers a situation involving dead babies and Lannisters - he is reminded of Rhaegar.  Perhaps this is the first time he's ever thought that Rhaegar and Robert might have something in common.

Ohhhhhh i see where you are going with this and i buy it as highly possible

[ravenous reader]

Let's just face it.  There's not much 'evidence' to go on, regarding Lyanna's views of anything, apart from that snippet where she addresses her brother rather condescendingly, 'there there...love is sweet, dear, sweet, simple-headed Ned, but it won't change Robert -- and more importantly it won't change the way I feel about him.'  Sorry @wolfmaid7, there're no 'doubts nor fears' to quell, only a pervasive cloying boredom oozing from the page.  What man wants to be called 'sweet'?-- that's not passion; that's not love.  It's something closer to pity.  I think Lyanna, like Arya, was not fooled by someone like Robert (although that doesn't rule out that she may have been fooled by Rhaegar...).

Lyanna's not necessarily a 'hypocrite.'  In the words of a once-famous popular book, 'she's just not into Robert.'  That much is clear.  

[wolfmaid7]

14 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Let's just face it.  There's not much 'evidence' to go on, regarding Lyanna's views of anything, apart from that snippet where she addresses her brother rather condescendingly, 'there there...love is sweet, dear, sweet, simple-headed Ned, but it won't change Robert -- and more importantly it won't change the way I feel about him.'  Sorry @wolfmaid7, there's no 'doubts nor fear' to quell, only a pervasive cloying boredom oozing from the page.  What man wants to be called 'sweet'?-- that's not passion; that's not love.  It's something closer to pity.  I think Lyanna, like Arya, was not fooled by someone like Robert (although that doesn't rule out that she may have been fooled by Rhaegar...).

Lyanna's not necessarily a 'hypocrite.'  In the words of a once-famous popular book, 'she's just not into Robert.'  That much is clear.  

And what this girl know about love? She has a belief about Robert on the night she found out about him.She's sure he would cheat eventhough he never did that to any girl prior to her. "He hit it and quit it"

Again,the tone of that conversation to me isn't what its made out to be.If according to you she wasn't going to be "fooled" by Robert )whatever that means.Robert if anything has never hid who he was and what he did.)

She wasn't going to take a married man with a child and a babe on the way seriously.The moment Rhaegar approached her with 'i'm going to leave my wife for you a girl who i don't know .She wouldn't give that Squirrel a nt because clearly he lost his marbles.If infidelity was a problem for Lyanna and it was....She would definitely have a problem with Rhaegar's designs on her.She would know for a fact not,"think" that he would in the future.She would know for a fact he is a cheater.There's no if about that.

But as i said before,all this is nice to talk about,but we will know in time who was wrong and right.

[ravenous reader]

40 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

But as i said before,all this is nice to talk about,but we will know in time who was wrong and right.

You are right.  There is not enough 'evidence' of anything right now, and GRRM is laughing at us, through his scraggly beard -- hee hee hee -- all the way to the bank!

Just to prove to you that I'm 'impartial,' I found some 'evidence' today that may support the idea of Lyanna as a Baratheon bride:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Arya IV

Tom was singing when they returned to the hall.

    My featherbed is deep and soft,

    and there I’ll lay you down,

    I’ll dress you all in yellow silk,

    and on your head a crown.

    For you shall be my lady love,

    and I shall be your lord.

    I’ll always keep you warm and safe,

    and guard you with my sword.

    Harwin took one look at them and burst out laughing, and Anguy smiled one of his stupid freckly smiles and said, “Are we certain this one is a highborn lady?” But Lem Lemoncloak gave Gendry a clout alongside the head. “You want to fight, fight with me! She’s a girl, and half your age! You keep your hands off o’ her, you hear me?”

    “I started it,” said Arya. “Gendry was just talking.”

    “Leave the boy, Lem,” said Harwin. “Arya did start it, I have no doubt. She was much the same at Winterfell.”

    Tom winked at her as he sang:

    And how she smiled and how she laughed,

    the maiden of the tree.

 

?Knight of the laughing tree

Quote

    She spun away and said to him,

    no featherbed for me.

    I’ll wear a gown of golden leaves,

    and bind my hair with grass,

    But you can be my forest love,

    and me your forest lass.

    “I have no gowns of leaves,” said Lady Smallwood with a small fond smile, “but Carellen left some other dresses that might serve. Come, child, let us go upstairs and see what we can find.”

    It was even worse than before; Lady Smallwood insisted that Arya take another bath, and cut and comb her hair besides; the dress she put her in this time was sort of lilac-colored, and decorated with little baby pearls. The only good thing about it was that it was so delicate that no one could expect her to ride in it. So the next morning as they broke their fast, Lady Smallwood gave her breeches, belt, and tunic to wear, and a brown doeskin jerkin dotted with iron studs. “They were my son’s things,” she said. “He died when he was seven.”

    “I’m sorry, my lady.” Arya suddenly felt bad for her, and ashamed. “I’m sorry I tore the acorn dress too. It was pretty.”

    “Yes, child. And so are you. Be brave.”Tom was singing when they returned to the hall.

 

Renly Baratheon is similarly described, adorned in green and gold before his demise:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn IV

Within, Catelyn found Brienne armoring the king for battle while the Lords Tarly and Rowan spoke of dispositions and tactics. It was pleasantly warm inside, the heat shimmering off the coals in a dozen small iron braziers. "I must speak with you, Your Grace," she said, granting him a king's style for once, anything to make him heed her.

"In a moment, Lady Catelyn," Renly replied. Brienne fit backplate to breastplate over his quilted tunic. The king's armor was a deep green, the green of leaves in a summer wood, so dark it drank the candlelight. Gold highlights gleamed from inlay and fastenings like distant fires in that wood, winking every time he moved.