Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 2

[SFDanny]

1 minute ago, Ygrain said:

Ping me if you do, I'd like to bring some popcorn 

Will do

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

 

 

X = Rhaegar: 

• PTWP 

• As the descendant of families symbolically represented by ice and fire, Jon's could be the song of ice and fire and he could represent a unifying or balancing force 

• Targaryen succession (the exact place depending on several circumstances) 

• The son of a Darth Vader figure of the family version of events 

• A competition or a partner for Dany 

X = Robert: 

•  Robert's eldest natural son  

• Baratheon succession 

• The son of the Usurper for Dany 

 

I hope I didn't forget anything essential this time. I have intentionally left out the Durrandon or Gardner stuff as they don't seem to play any role in ASOIAF's many subplots whatsoever. 

Oh come on Ygrain.  Once again you are being highly selective to favor your own position.  The Darth Vader figure fits for Rhaegar because he's the son of the Darth Vader figure.  What baloney!  I point out to you the reader's reaction to a Robert reveal would be vader-ish and I point out Jon's reaction to Robert; and you abscond with it and try to shoehorn it into Rhaegar's profile. 

Once again you maximize and minimize to your own advantage. You fail to mention once again that the Baratheon's have dragon blood if in fact this is important or necessary at all.

This is Aemon's assessment of the Baratheon bloodline.  Note that Aemon was hopeful that Melisandre was right about the prophecy and doesn't exclude the Baratheon bloodline.  

"Lady Melisandre has misread the signs. Stannis. Stannis has some of the dragon blood in him, yes. His brothers did as well. Rhaelle, Egg's little girl, she was how they came by it… their father's mother… she used to call me Uncle Maester when she was a little girl. I remembered that, so I allowed myself to hope… perhaps I wanted to… we all deceive ourselves, when we want to believe. Melisandre most of all, I think. The sword is wrong, she has to know that… light without heat… an empty glamor… the sword is wrong, and the false light can only lead us deeper into darkness, Sam..." (4.35 - SAMWELL)  

[Ygrain]

1 minute ago, LynnS said:

Oh come on Ygrain.  Once again you are being highly selective to favor your own position.  The Darth Vader figure fits for Rhaegar because he's the son of the Darth Vader figure.  What baloney!  I point out to you the reader's reaction to a Robert reveal would be vader-ish and I point out Jon's reaction to Robert; and you abscond with it and try to shoehorn it into Rhaegar's profile. 

/cough/ in the previous iteration, I wrote "son of the family enemy", which kinda didn't get the message across. So I used Darth Vader and this comparison is by no means your invention, as the similarity has been noted umpteen times. And it has nothing to do with Rhaegar being Aerys' son but with the fact that in the Stark version of the R+L story, he is the villain.

 

1 minute ago, LynnS said:

Once again you maximize and minimize to your own advantage. You fail to mention once again that the Baratheon's have dragon blood if in fact this is important or necessary at all.

You need to re-read my post. I included Robert in the X = Targaryen section, and listed the common Targ features in its heading. Rhaegar and Robert then got just their specific points. 

 

[Kingmonkey]

13 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Still don't see it as a point for or against Robert or Rhaegar because we don't know in what context Ned was speaking. I get a very different inflection from Ned's

"For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not."

We know the context in which Ned was thinking about this though: Robert's infidelity. Ned has just visited a brothel and found one of Robert's many bastard offspring. In that context he is reminded of Lyanna's observation that infidelity was inherent to Robert's nature.

It's a point against Robert for a very simple reason. It's the single piece of information we have that explicitly tells us anything about Lyanna's attitude towards Robert, and it's negative. It's only a point against Robert because it's a single point of data, but when that single point of negative data is the sole direct testimony, that shouldn't be dismissed.

Ned's observation about Rhaegar is in the same context as his memory of Lyanna's observation about Robert. He visits a brothel where Robert has been sowing his wild oats, and comes out thinking about Robert's infidelity in the round. He then thinks of Rhaegar as being someone who, unlike Robert, would not frequent brothels. 

13 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Kingmonkey,i have to disagree with you.Lyanna "was still" his bethrothed until she died.Was the contract of marriage null  and void because she was missing? No it wasn't.He isn't talking about that at all.

No, true enough -- but she had been stolen from him. If someone steals your car it's still legally yours, but it's no longer in your possession. 

13 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

What's Robert belief? He like everyone else believed that Rhaegar took her because he had some romantice designs on her.He has Lyanna now in death where he never had her before in life to do with whatever he liked.Adding to this is Robert's death bed statement to Ned. " He will give Lyanna Ned's love." So he believes that they are going to be reunited.

Oh but he did have her before, in life. Robert himself believes that Rhaegar raped her half a hundred times. 

I'm not sure about Robert's real belief with that statement. Does he genuinely believe that he will be reunited with Lyanna in the afterlife, that they will be together there in the way they were supposed to be in life? Possibly. It's also possible the statement is fatalistic pathos. I'm not convinced that Robert didn't at least suspect that Lyanna may have actually preferred Rhaegar to himself, though he's not the kind of man who would admit that. The reading there is pretty ambiguous, and I'm sure intentionally so. Robert is certainly a rather tragic figure.

13 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Perception and associating perception with wording is everything,and yours i thing is based off the idea that Robert " was too busy" to pay attention.Why couldn't they be comfortable and confident enough with each other to not be clingy at a party.That one moment in time you see as Robert being to busy to pay Lyanna attention,could be an extention of  Lyanna and Robert at that point in time being secure in themselves as a couple.

That's a valid reading, sure. However when we put this together with Robert's response to Rhaegar's crowning, Lyanna paying attention to Rhaegar when Robert was paying attention to his drinking buddies, Robert's oft-referenced tendency to be easily distracted and to "forget them in the morning", and most of all Robert's obvious regrets, I think the idea that Robert was simply not paying her enough attention is the stronger reading.

13 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Umm Jstar in response to Voice of the first men said "Do as i say not as i do" to Lyanna going with Rhaegar who as Voice puts it wouldn't be keeping to one bed.And if Rhaegar dumps his wife because she can't give him a child he's just a douche.

Ok, so it's not something you plucked entirely out of the blue, I concede that point. However one person briefly mentioning it as a possibility hardly justifies your suggestion that "the fallback go to response is always she's a hyprocrite", does it? Particularly in direct response to an argument that is entirely contrary to that response?

13 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

You posit the wrong question that Ned's thought was a comparioson between Rhaegar and Robert.It wasn't.Littlefinger may have been sarcastic but that sarcasm is what triggered Ned's callback to Rhaegar.A blabber mouth who for a fleeting moment Ned wondered ever visited brothals lest anything slip...That was followed by medival version of "Nahhh"

I think you've misunderstood Baelish's silencing comment. There was no mention of people letting things slip in brothels, that's just not part of the conversation here.

Baelish's sarcastic comment was that Arryn must have been silenced so that he didn't let slip that Robert had gotten a prostitute pregnant, making the point that it was hardly a secret, and there was no need to silence someone for it. "Allow a man like that to live, and next he's like to blurt out that the sun rises in the east." Nobody cares if a man blurts out that the sun rises in the east, because everyone already knows. Nobody cares if someone reveals that Robert frequents brothels and fills Westeros with bastards, because everyone already knows. People don't get murdered to stop them revealing information that everyone already knows.  

The person who Ned thought of visiting brothels was Robert.

The person who Ned thought of as unlikely to visit brothels was Rhaegar.

That's a direct comparison between Rhaegar and Robert. There's really no other sensible interpretation. There is simply nobody else in play who does frequent brothels.

 

[The Ned's Little Girl]

49 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Except that her musing about running off with Daario like Rhaegar and Lyanna was thrown into the mix.  Daario who clams to have slept with thousands of woman.  A dangerous sort of guy.  If Dany is Rhaegar's or Aery's daughter by Ashara Dayne; then she's just as likely a candidate for AAR or PwP as Jon would be unless these really are two different prophecies.  

Dany's musing about Daario carrying her off was brought in as illustration of a possible parallel to Lyanna, which is the topic being discussed here. But this discussion is not about the parentage of Dany, nor is it about the character of Daario, nor is it about the likeliness of her rather than Jon Snow being AAR or PtwP.

I'll leave it to @wolfmaid7 to make the final determination though, since this is her topic.

[LynnS]

22 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

/cough/ in the previous iteration, I wrote "son of the family enemy", which kinda didn't get the message across. So I used Darth Vader and this comparison is by no means your invention, as the similarity has been noted umpteen times. And it has nothing to do with Rhaegar being Aerys' son but with the fact that in the Stark version of the R+L story, he is the villain.

I just need to look at your chart Ygraine.  You are not an objective observer and your chart reflects that.  You are stretching the Darth Vader analogy to fit Rheager's profile.  Everyone will recognize that Luke Skywalker reacts to the reveal of his father not his grandfather.   And you deliberately excluded that reference from Robert's profile.  Why? You are making arbitrary decision on what to include or exclude to advance your own position.  That's BS.. 

[Kingmonkey]

13 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I didn't see this from KM so i'm piggy backing off this post JNR.I wasn't aware your essay points were being ignored,but in truth they all are.Some of these essays are getting completely ignored,and have been dismissed with not even a pffft.

(snip)

I'll start the thread next when this is done and you give a first post if you like about what points in your essay you want spoken about.We will just go from there.

Thank you for that offer Wolfmaid, but I don't think it's necessary. As you said, some of the essays are being ignored without even a pfft. If people don't feel there's anything to discuss about a given parentage option, then so be it.

However I do feel that if someone feels there is a flaw in the reasoning behind a particular parentage suggestion, it should be in reference to the relevant essay, rather than based on something that isn't in the essay. I'm sure that, for example, you'd find it fairly frustrating if people started trying to argue against the possibility or Robert having visited the Tower of Joy to impregnate Lyanna after the kidnapping rather than engaging in the timeline of events that your essay actually proposes.

[Ygrain]

22 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I just need to look at your chart Ygraine.  You are not an objective observer and your chart reflects that.  You are stretching the Darth Vader analogy to fit Rheager's profile.  Everyone will recognize that Luke Skywalker reacts to the reveal of his father not his grandfather.   And you deliberately excluded that reference from Robert's profile.  Why? You are making arbitrary decision on what to include or exclude to advance your own position.  That's BS.. 

Sigh. Once more, slowly. The Darth Vader revelation entails Luke, brought up by his uncle, finding out that he is the son of the big baddie (not the biggest baddie, though, because that's the Emperor). If Jon is Rhaegar's, then he will find out that he is the son of the big baddie who kidnapped and raped his mother (and the Emperor parallel here is Aerys). If Jon is Robert's son, then he is still brought up by his uncle but Robert is not a villain in the family version of the events, he is the heroic demon of the Trident. That's why I included Darth Vader in Rhaegar's profile and not Robert's, because that's the way I see the analogy.

PS That said, it doesn't mean Rhaegar raped Lyanna. Only that Jon thinks so.

[Kingmonkey]

14 hours ago, JNR said:

Well, Lyanna never mentioned brothels.  I don't think she was putting a tracking number on a man's sex history and saying it must never exceed a certain value, and extrapolating that Robert's count was above that value, and Rhaegar's was below it.

No, nothing as formal as that, for sure. She's talking about a man's nature. Robert's nature is to chase skirt.

Robert has 16 bastards, presumably from almost as many different mothers. Surely you can see that there's a difference between a man who leaves a wife he doesn't love for another woman, and a man who continually goes around shagging and forgetting every woman he can get his hands on even if he does love his wife?

14 hours ago, JNR said:

She just wanted a husband who would be faithful to her.  And from Robert's past history, she had good reason to believe he would never be that. 

How about Rhaegar?

She would know beyond doubt that he could not stick to one bed after getting married either.

As my answer to Voice, you're missing the important word "never" from Lyanna's complaint. Lyanna did not object to the fact that Robert had a past, it was the future she was concerned about. Even if Robert loved her, it would not change his nature.

Rhaegar did not, Barristan tells us, love Elia. Maybe he did love Lyanna. Or maybe Lyanna believed he did. In that case, there is no reason for Lyanna to believe that Elia's case would have any bearing on herself.

Or, you know, maybe Lyanna didn't have any choice in the matter and her feelings are moot.

Either way, it's not a problem. 

[Black Crow]

57 minutes ago, Kingmonkey said:

Ned's observation about Rhaegar is in the same context as his memory of Lyanna's observation about Robert. He visits a brothel where Robert has been sowing his wild oats, and comes out thinking about Robert's infidelity in the round. He then thinks of Rhaegar as being someone who, unlike Robert, would not frequent brothels. 

Indeed, but is he simply speaking [inwardly] to Rhaegar not being a Falstaff sowing his little seeds everywhere, or is he speaking to Rhaegar being a decent family man, faithful to his lady wife.

[Ygrain]

Ad the Darth Vader-Rhaegar parallel: some older links where it was noted.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/75735-rhaegar-lyanna-dany/&do=findComment&comment=6708098

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/94911-rlj-v-57/&do=findComment&comment=4839213

 

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Dany's musing about Daario carrying her off was brought in as illustration of a possible parallel to Lyanna, which is the topic being discussed here. But this discussion is not about the parentage of Dany, nor is it about the character of Daario, nor is it about the likeliness of her rather than Jon Snow being AAR or PtwP.

I'll leave it to @wolfmaid7 to make the final determination though, since this is her topic.

The point was made that Dany's fantasies are akin to Lyanna running away with Rhaegar.  What is missed here is that Daario claims to have bedded a thousand woman and Dany is still attracted to him and beds him anyway.  The comparison is more apt between Daario and Robert, than Rheager, Robert who would have made a better Dothraki or sellsword than a king.  Both say they love Dany/Lyanna.  If there is a comparison to make between Dany and Lyanna; it's that 'a man who is every maiden's fantasy' is attractive and bedable.  If there is a comparison between Rhaegar and Dany; it's that Dany doesn't run away with Daario.  

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

If Jon is Rhaegar's, then he will find out that he is the son of the big baddie who kidnapped and raped his mother (and the Emperor parallel here is Aerys). If Jon is Robert's son, then he is still brought up by his uncle but Robert is not a villain in the family version of the events, he is the heroic demon of the Trident.

Odd, in this context, to note just how well-liked both Rhaegar and Robert seem to have been. Granted, they're both portrayed as somewhat sex-obsessed, and mixed up in their priorities. But one had a devoted fan club of boys and young men, while the other was able to win over battlefield enemies and turn them into friends.  

I'd feel much better about this analogy, if there were light-sabers and levitating droids involved somehow. At the very least, it might help narrow things down a bit. 

Was the Vader thing in an SSM, somewhere?

[Ygrain]

5 minutes ago, LynnS said:

The point was made that Dany's fantasies are akin to Lyanna running away with Rhaegar.  What is missed here is that Daario claims to have bedded a thousand woman and Dany is still attracted to him and beds him anyway.  The comparison is more apt between Daario and Robert, than Rheager, Robert who would have made a better Dothraki or sellsword than a king.  Both say they love Dany/Lyanna.  If there is a comparison to make between Dany and Lyanna; it's that 'a man who is every maiden's fantasy' is attractive and bedable.  If there is a comparison between Rhaegar and Dany; it's that Dany doesn't run away with Daario.  

With such a literal approach, you must drop practically any parallel because they are never the same. For example, you wouldn't be able to derive anything from the Bael story because Bael was not a prince, Rhaegar didn't enter anyone's castle and gave Lyanna a crown of roses, not a single rose. Neither did he, as far as we know, left the crown behind after taking Lyanna. 

The Daario-Dany parallel doesn't go beyond a potential parallel situation, of saving the girl from unwanted marriage, and the manner of saving provides a possible explanation for the earlier mention that Rhaegar took Lyanna at swordpoint. From the way Dany sets the parallel, it seems Rhaegar didn't poise a threat against Lyanna but her guards/company.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

42 minutes ago, LynnS said:

The point was made that Dany's fantasies are akin to Lyanna running away with Rhaegar.  What is missed here is that Daario claims to have bedded a thousand woman and Dany is still attracted to him and beds him anyway.  The comparison is more apt between Daario and Robert, than Rheager, Robert who would have made a better Dothraki or sellsword than a king.  Both say they love Dany/Lyanna.  If there is a comparison to make between Dany and Lyanna; it's that 'a man who is every maiden's fantasy' is attractive and bedable.  If there is a comparison between Rhaegar and Dany; it's that Dany doesn't run away with Daario.  

All good points. I was trying to point toward other arguments you were making such as:

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

If Dany is Rhaegar's or Aery's daughter by Ashara Dayne; then she's just as likely a candidate for AAR or PwP as Jon would be unless these really are two different prophecies.  

Since the topic at hand is various theories of Jon Snow's parentage, the possibility that he might be the prophesied one would be applicable if the theory advocates the idea that he was birthed for that purpose*. One can even argue against that idea. But advocating for alternate theories of Dany's parentage or advancing the reasons why she may be a better candidate for the prophecy doesn't fall under the umbrella of "various theories of Jon Snow's parentage". In my opinion. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough with that.

At any rate, I won't derail the topic in this way again.

* (It's been months since I've read them all so I don't remember if any did use that idea; my age is catching up with me I guess!)

[Sly Wren]

16 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

Re the blue roses and the Blue Bard - there is one mention I could find connecting the two, and it's a pretty weak one.  Cersei notes his blue hair, dyed in the Tyroshi fashion:

That's it.  Not really enough to link deceit with blue roses in this case, IMO.

But blue roses are very rarely mentioned in the novels and are directly tied to Lyanna. The only other references? Bael the Bard. The blue rose in the chink of ice. And the Blue Bard.

Martin could have had Cersei use all kinds of methods to take Marg down. Or the same method with another man.

But Martin had Cersei use a blue haired, blue-clothed, blue rose scented Bard. 

If he isn't telling us that this is a hint about what the blue roses mean, why on earth choose that as Cersei's weapon?

13 hours ago, Runaway Penguin said:

Might have been, but then why would Rhaegar let everyone thnk he is the kidnapper/eloper? Would be far easier to deny right at the beginning, if for nothing else than to say later "See, I told you so!".  Adding someone else into the disappearance of Lyanna increases complexity of the system, having someone else using the disappearance to spread misinformation far less so.

The above works--if Rhaegar doesn't want the war. 

But one way or another, Rhaegar needs and wants Aerys off of that throne. And has plotted to get him off the throne. And has worked with a man (Tywin) who actively co-opts other rebellions to kill enemies. Even kings.

Letting the country rebel against Aerys gets Aerys gone. Coming in to restore peace and being able to say, "I didn't kidnap Lyanna. I saved her from ruffians!"--that gives Rhaegar a strong position from which to depose Aerys. And if Aerys ended up dead in the rebellion, so much the better. No king is fully deposed until he's decomposing.

Adding in others (like the three knights) gives both Tywin and Rhaegar deniability. Which we definitely know Tywin works for. And which Rhaegar would need.

[JNR]

50 minutes ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

Granted, they're both portrayed as somewhat sex-obsessed, and mixed up in their priorities. But one had a devoted fan club of boys and young men

Heh.  I see what you did there.

[wolfmaid7]

28 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

With such a literal approach, you must drop practically any parallel because they are never the same. For example, you wouldn't be able to derive anything from the Bael story because Bael was not a prince, Rhaegar didn't enter anyone's castle and gave Lyanna a crown of roses, not a single rose. Neither did he, as far as we know, left the crown behind after taking Lyanna. 

The Daario-Dany parallel doesn't go beyond a potential parallel situation, of saving the girl from unwanted marriage, and the manner of saving provides a possible explanation for the earlier mention that Rhaegar took Lyanna at swordpoint. From the way Dany sets the parallel, it seems Rhaegar didn't poise a threat against Lyanna but her guards/company.

Ygrain i think you don't want to go beyond the belief that Lyanna was rescued from marriage.

But here's one that's right there.Dany wanted Daario from the get.Her words.But "complained' he was a sellsword who boasted he fucked 100 women.

He laughed and corrected her that he fucked 1000.

So who does Hizdar sound like and who does Daario sound like.Who did she want?

That Darth vader analogy works in either case.

57 minutes ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

Odd, in this context, to note just how well-liked both Rhaegar and Robert seem to have been. Granted, they're both portrayed as somewhat sex-obsessed, and mixed up in their priorities. But one had a devoted fan club of boys and young men, while the other was able to win over battlefield enemies and turn them into friends.  

I'd feel much better about this analogy, if there were light-sabers and levitating droids involved somehow. At the very least, it might help narrow things down a bit. 

Was the Vader thing in an SSM, somewhere?

Har!

[Sly Wren]

1 hour ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

Odd, in this context, to note just how well-liked both Rhaegar and Robert seem to have been. Granted, they're both portrayed as somewhat sex-obsessed, and mixed up in their priorities. But one had a devoted fan club of boys and young men, while the other was able to win over battlefield enemies and turn them into friends.  

I'd feel much better about this analogy, if there were light-sabers and levitating droids involved somehow. At the very least, it might help narrow things down a bit. 

Was the Vader thing in an SSM, somewhere?

I think they are referencing this article: http://www.hypable.com/game-of-thrones-star-alfie-allen-theon-just-wants-approval-from-his-family/

But Alfie is far from clear or explicit on what he means.

So, who knows?

ETA: In the same article, Alfie makes a Richard III parallel that I have trouble deciphering. And I've read Richard III a dozen times. 

So, no idea if Alfie's parallel is helpful/accurate or not.

[wolfmaid7]

Kingmonkey,i'll have to answer you later tonight.