Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 2

[SFDanny]

@Kingmonkey I tried to post this response to you this morning, but found myself shut out by the closing of the previous thread. After running around this morning, I'm hopeful this time it works.

Kingmonkey said:

I don't see how it pins the wedding to 283. Let's say, just for the sake of argument, that Cat 2 takes place on the 10th February 298, and the marriage on the 25th of October, 282. That's 15 years, 3.5 months. I think Cat's thought "And one day fifteen years ago..." would be perfectly natural for that. Am I missing something?Yep, this one seems to be pretty decisive. 

 

One can choose to interpret Cat's remark one of two ways, one of which is indeed perfectly natural, and one of which is contradictory to the other clues and pretty weird, but both of which gives you 283 as the year in which she is married.

 

Scenario 1, or Catelyn as a natural woman - Catelyn, like most people, is simply thinking fifteen years ago, based on the current year she is in minus the year she was married equals 15 years. The year 298 - 283 = 15 years. The bold being our unknown variable.

 

Scenario 2, or Catelyn as the Mentat of Winterfell - Catelyn, like almost no one except some math savants, and Thufir Hawat in a galaxy far, far away, thinks of these dates not in terms of the the years, but thinks in terms of months, or days, or minutes or even seconds since the date has past. So, in the Catelyn as the human computer of Westeros scenario, and here we will limit ourselves to days for the example, she thinks today is the first of May in the Year 298 (a reasonable estimation of the scene date in the series) and she subtracts the anniversary date of the first of May of 283 (an unlikely actual marriage date) and gets  May 1st  298 - May 1st 283 = 15 years. While it is true that this is a very easy calculation for anyone, even the math challenged amongst us, for the human computer of Westeros not to say 15 years and x amount of days the only way she gets exactly 15 years is if the dates in the two years match. And please note the year of her marriage is, of course, is still 283.

 

To do what you did in your scenario, it means not only is she thinking in terms of years and in days and months, but that she truncates the days and months in her thoughts to herself. However, she is not speaking to anyone and giving a rough estimation for them in order to not expose her obsession with exact counts. If she is counting the exact days and months, and she is coming up with an answer not reflected in her internal thoughts then we have something basic that is wrong in the logic of the scenario. She doesn't think,"And one day fifteen years and 3.5 months ago, this second father had become brother as well." Her internal monologue says "fifteen years" because thats what she thinks and that is what she means.

 

Kingmonkey said:

Actually, isn't Aegon born in late 281? Rhaegar's out on the road at the start of the new year, but was at Dragonstone at some point after Aegon's birth. Elia was in attendance at Harrenhal. While I've always assumed the tourney took place mid year (and the May day symbolism certainly suggests that), we're looking for a latest possible date. I think we have to knock this one a couple of months further back, because Elia was known to have trouble in childbirth and would hardly be travelling to tournaments when heavily pregnant.

 

Yes, it is likely Aegon is born then, but there is no reason to believe he was conceived in Harrenhal. We have no idea how far along in Elia's pregnancy it is when Harrenhal happens, but for Aegon to have been conceived there we have to push the tourney back to the first quarter of the year. This is almost certainly not the case because of the birth of Rhaenys in 280 AC, the same year as Elia and Rhaegar's wedding. But if we do assume the tourney and Jon's conception are way back in the first quarter of 281, it obviously makes Jon - supposedly conceived in Harrenhal - much older than if the tourney is in late 281. Instead of a year to fifteen months difference between Robb and Jon, we are talking much closer to two years difference.

 

Kingmonkey said:

I'd say that gives us a clear 1 year gap between the earliest possible time for Robb's conception and the latest possible time for Harrenhal. It's highly unlikely it was as little as this, but this is the shortest gap we can possibly push the timeline without it breaking, and that's the point here. Even at this extreme 1 year difference, there's just no way that Cat would mistake a 15 month old baby Jon for one that had been conceived after 3 month old Rob, when Ned was away fighting in the south. 

 

The one year gap is the closest that Robb and Jon's age can be in my scenario of Jon conceived in Harrenhal, but in yours it is much greater. Your conclusion of Catelyn's observation about the age difference is, however, absolutely correct.

 

Kingmonkey said:

Absolutely, but we've got to persuade people who believe that Dany was not born on Dragonstone when everyone thinks she was, and that GRRM was being sneaky here.  

 

Which I think would be fine if the "clues" supporting this idea were not limited to "they wore cloaks that covered their faces" and a possible discrepancy in the time of day the ship sets sail to Dragonstone.

 

Kingmonkey said:

Yep, this one seems to be pretty decisive. 

 

I think it is.

[Sly Wren]

5 hours ago, Ygrain said:

The love angle of RLJ

First of all, this is by no means an exhaustive essay, I'm afraid I don't, and won't, have the time for it. It is the very basics, or perhaps "how I figured out".

First up, an excellent run down of the case!

Second up, if Jon ends up being Rhaegar's son, I agree: it really seems like there should be a love angle. Martin might spring something on us, but as you say, it seems really hard to fit Ned's neutral stance on Rhaegar fit if Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna.

That said, the idea that they loved each other also gets push-back in text.

As you say:

5 hours ago, Ygrain said:

The love angle is further supported by the trail of the blue roses in Ned's PoVs. They are constantly associated with Lyanna and what we know about Lyanna and blue roses follows a pattern of a gradual reveal - first it is roses (the room that smelled of blood and roses), then blue roses, then a garland of blue roses, and eventually we learn that it is the QoLaB crown and who gave it to Lyanna. Thus in retrospect, all the mentions about Lyanna and blue roses become mentions of Lyanna and a gift from Rhaegar, as no other instances where Lyanna might have come across blue roses are specified. No mentions about Lyanna in the glasshouses in Winterfell, or weaving blue roses into her hair since childhood, or being gifted a bouquet by Robert... The crowning is the only instance, and Rhaegar the only other person connected with the blue roses.

Yes--Lyanna's roses are clearly tied to her and Rhaegar.

But then, in the Bael Tale, Ygritte makes it very clear that the leaving of the rose was not a gesture of love. It was an insult and an attack. An "in your face!" to an enemy. And taking and impregnating the Stark Maid was a way to really stick it (with all the Freudian implications) to an enemy. The Maid doesn't even get mentioned until she is taken--she's just a means to Bael's end--vengeance and spite. The whole story initiates as a competition and feud between Bael and the Stark in Winterfell. Not a romance.

Plus, the only part of the Bael Tale that Ygritte disclaims is the idea that it was a love tale. That's the only part she questions. Jon questions the whole thing--Ygritte sticks by it as "bard's truth." BUT she disclaims the idea that love was involved.

Then throw in the Blue Bard--a big, singing, rose-scented, blue-dyed symbol: he's used for the express purpose of attacking an enemy. Not a love story--personified blue roses as weapon.

And the World Book makes it very clear that something is very, very wrong with Lyanna's crowning. From the moment it happened, not just in Ned's memory.

Really seems like Martin's laid a lot of groundwork for those roses to not mean a love story. At all. If so, then the tie between Rhaegar and Lyanna might have nothing to do with love, either.

5 hours ago, Ygrain said:

That said, it doesn't necessarily mean that it was a love from the get go (though I am inclined to believe that Rhaegar's uncharacteristically inspired victory is a hint towards a feeling that he hadn't experienced before). Only that at some point, somewhere, somehow, love occurred. 

Agreed--if they did fall in love, I'm inclined to believe it started with an accident--Rhaegar ended up with Lyanna after she ran from someone else (my current best guess is Tywin's lackeys). 

An accidental love story--that would fit with the echoes in Jon. And with the fact that both Sansa and Arya end up with people who did not originally take them. Especially since the Brotherhood has that scene where they echo the tower KG rather closely.

5 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Most likely lasted, or at least the memory of it, till their last moments, as implied by the vision of Rhaegar dying with Lyanna's name on his lips

This one's harder to buy. In those visions, Dany has no trouble distinguishing words and names. And we know from Game that she's well acquainted with Elia's name. And in Storm, she volunteers Lyanna's name and story when Barristan is talking about Harrenhal. So Dany knows those names really, really well.

But when she sees Rhaegar die, she only hears "a woman's name." If it were Elia or Lyanna, shouldn't that name have registered? Dany knows those names and stories very well.

Perhaps Martin is threading the needle and Dany can hear a word well enough to know it's a woman's name but not which name it is.

But given that throughout the vision, Dany can hear names and words pretty well and register them clearly, seems like there's an excellent chance that the name Rhaegar says as he dies is a name Dany does not know. Not Lyanna. Nor Elia.

5 hours ago, Ygrain said:

and Lyanna holding onto the roses even on her deathbed.

Maybe--but we don't know they were those roses. Not yet.

5 hours ago, Ygrain said:

But instead of roses and sunshine, it brought destruction and death in a most non-Disney-like fashion.

True.

As you say--if Rhaegar is the father, really seems like some kind of love had to be in there somewhere--unless Martin's setting up for a huge twist.

But even given that, the books do push back against the love story, too. Especially with the roses.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

42 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Yes--Lyanna's roses are clearly tied to her and Rhaegar.

But then, in the Bael Tale, Ygritte makes it very clear that the leaving of the rose was not a gesture of love. It was an insult and an attack. An "in your face!" to an enemy. And taking and impregnating the Stark Maid was a way to really stick it (with all the Freudian implications) to an enemy. The Maid doesn't even get mentioned until she is taken--she's just a means to Bael's end--vengeance and spite. The whole story initiates as a competition and feud between Bael and the Stark in Winterfell. Not a romance.

Plus, the only part of the Bael Tale that Ygritte disclaims is the idea that it was a love tale. That's the only part she questions. Jon questions the whole thing--Ygritte sticks by it as "bard's truth." BUT she disclaims the idea that love was involved.

Then throw in the Blue Bard--a big, singing, rose-scented, blue-dyed symbol: he's used for the express purpose of attacking an enemy. Not a love story--personified blue roses as weapon.

I'd actually agree with this. I would say, that Martin has laid out clues that Bael the Bard's story wasn't one of romance, at all. I think that Bael might have stolen her  and possibly, raped her. The biggest clue to this is Bran's visions in his final chapter in ADWD:

Quote

a woman heavy with child emerged naked and dripping from the black pool, knelt before the tree, and begged the old gods for a son who would avenge her.

This vision follows the one of Ned's generation of Starks (Lyanna and Benjen playing with swords) and precedes the one of Brandon Snow's (during the time Torrhen Stark was king.) Timeline wise, that would mean it falls in the period post Starks giving up their crown - making them Lords of Winterfell. 

And Brandon the Daughterless indeed was a Lord and not a king of Winterfell.

It also defies logic as to how a pregnant woman could stay in the crypts for 9 months and manage during such a delicate time.  No, IMO, Stonesnake was right.

Pretty obviously this entire episode was eliminated from official Stark history due to the nature of the whole thing, which is how Jon has no idea about it. But among the Wildlings, Bael must have spun a different tale completely.

This also ties in with why his son finally did what the lady prayed for - and killed his father. With the taboo against kinslaying in Westeros, there must have been a major motivation for him to do so. 

We also have the character named 'Bael'ish - who's also "taken" a Stark daughter against her will.

 

However, I do not believe that the tale is necessarily an exact echo of R + L , I agree with you that it's really hard to explain some of their actions away if there wasn't love involved.

42 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Agreed--if they did fall in love, I'm inclined to believe it started with an accident--Rhaegar ended up with Lyanna after she ran from someone else (my current best guess is Tywin's lackeys). 

An accidental love story--that would fit with the echoes in Jon. And with the fact that both Sansa and Arya end up with people who did not originally take them. Especially since the Brotherhood has that scene where they echo the tower KG rather closely.

I'd offer an alternate interpretation: Maybe it's a tale of love gone sour, where they were initially in love and eloped but Lyanna maybe realised it was a mistake to have run off with him later.

42 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

This one's harder to buy. In those visions, Dany has no trouble distinguishing words and names. And we know from Game that she's well acquainted with Elia's name. And in Storm, she volunteers Lyanna's name and story when Barristan is talking about Harrenhal. So Dany knows those names really, really well.

But when she sees Rhaegar die, she only hears "a woman's name." If it were Elia or Lyanna, shouldn't that name have registered? Dany knows those names and stories very well.

Perhaps Martin is threading the needle and Dany can hear a word well enough to know it's a woman's name but not which name it is.

I still think it's Lyanna because of GRRM confirming it, but those are good points

42 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

As you say--if Rhaegar is the father, really seems like some kind of love had to be in there somewhere--unless Martin's setting up for a huge twist.

But even given that, the books do push back against the love story, too. Especially with the roses.

Very true, and I agree there is enough room for it to go either way. The truth will be pretty complicated, whenever GRRM reveals it.

Excellent post, Sly Wren 

 

[J. Stargaryen]

Saying that Ygritte "disclaimed" Baelette's love for Bael is overselling it. She casts doubt on it, but the conclusion of the story -- not the song -- has her jumping from a tower when she learns that her son has killed Bael. A sign of distress that could be explained by her affection for Bael, which might not have been reciprocated. At least for very long. Maybe he was the love em and leave em type. Maybe he professed undying love along with a promise to return, but he never did. At least not entirely.

Frankly, I don't find it hard to believe that Bael was popular with the ladies. In fact I think he was meant to be. He was a leader, warrior and singer. That's maiden-bait if I've ever seen it.

[wolfmaid7]

Ok so i'm going to put up my proof of love given Ygrain's arguement and as i've said i hope the other prospects will put up their own.Ygrain you have argued that there's a cultural perception that they ran off together. I put up the quotes that lead you to believe that.I have argued that your evidence is not based on any insider evidence,we can't see anything through Rhaegar's eyes,see how anything might have progressed or get anything beyond what westeros thinks based on the crowning of Lyanna Starks as QOLAB.

 

So this is what i have for Robert:

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1.Lyanna had only been sixteen, a child-woman of surpassing loveliness. Ned had loved her with all his heart. Robert had loved her even more. She was to have been his bride. (AGOT,Ned).

I would like to compare this quote to your Barristan Selmy quote and also reiterate that Barristan when he was asked by Dany why Rhaegar did what he did.He responded that he cannot speak as to what might have been in Rhaegar's heart....Might have been.He couldguess ofcourse but this goes to show that he didn't have any info beyond what Westros on a whole thought they knew..Based of course on the crowning.He didn't know what was in Rhaegar's heart,we are positive that Lyanna's brother knew what was in Robert's.

Ned's relationship with Lyanna is important,not purely from a sibling point of view but if you recall i mentioned that GRRM doesn't need to give us a blow by blow account of what happened in between.There's evidence in behavior,what people say,how they say it etc that can indicate what kind of relationship people had.We know Ned was sent to foster at the Erie whan he was 8 and we don't get anything about him and Lyanna until his recollection of the night Lya found out about the bethrothal and then we get his account of her .On the surface it looks like Lyanna and Ned had two interaction...True but Ned's emotion indicates that our seeing two meetings on page doesn't represent their reltaionship.His words does. "Ned loved her with all his heart and Robert even more" He qualifies Robert's love as being more than his to his sister.Comparing him who knew and loved his sister against someone who didn't makes no sense.But what can't be mistaken is that from an insider prospective There's no doubt about the kind of relationship Robert had with Lyanna.

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2.“He’s still in love with the sister, the insipid little dead sixteen year old.”  How long till he decides to put me aside for some new Lyanna AGOT, Bran, Pg.83…

 

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3."We both know your wedding was a mummer's farce. A year ago you were scheming to make the girl one of Robert's whores.""A year ago I was scheming to make the girl Robert's queen,"

 

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4.Renly had seemed anxious to know if the girl reminded him of anyone, and when Ned had no answer but a shrug, he had seemed disappointed. The maid was Loras Tyrell's sister Margaery, he'd confessed, but there were those who said she looked like Lyanna. "No," Ned had told him, bemused.”

So we have actual insider information thatcan attest to the love Robert had for Lyanna,we even have Ned qualifying his relationship with his sister who was known to him as being less than how much Robert loved Lyanna.The quality of this info is in no way exceeded by anyone who "knows Rhaegar loved Lyanna".We have no " in on Rhaegar and Lyanna"

So what about what we can get from Robert himself.

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5. “The gods be damned. It was a hollow victory they gave me. A crown ... it was the girl I prayed them for. Your sister, safe ... and mine again, as she was meant to be.”

 

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“She pushed him back against the trunk of a tree and kissed him, full on the lips right there in the midst of the ragged column. <Snip>. He kissed her back despite all that. When they finally broke apart, Ygritte was flushed. "You're mine," she whispered. "Mine, as I'm yours.”

“He is mine.” She rose to her feet. “They all tried to take him from me. My lord father, my husband, your mother…Catelyn most of all. She liked to kiss my Petyr too, oh yes she did (asos,Sansa).

 

Pay attention to how Robert refers to getting Lya back safe “mine again” The idea of “mine” comes up a couple of times in this series and is one of endearment that speaks of emotional and or physical intimacy i.e.Moving on.

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6.“She was more beautiful than that,” the king said after a silence. His eyes lingered on Lyanna’s face, as if he could will her back to life. <Snip> “Ah, damn it, Ned, did you have to bury her in a place like this?” His voice was hoarse with remembered grief.”<Snip>. “The king touched her cheek, his fingers brushing across the rough stone as gently as if it were living flesh.”

 

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7. And Cersei... I have Jon Arryn to thank for her. I had no wish to marry after Lyanna was taken from me, but Jon said the realm needed an heir.”

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8. Her {Cersei’s} eyes burned, green fire in the dusk, <snip>. “The night of our wedding feast, the first time we shared a bed, he called me by your sister’s name. He was on top of me, in me, stinking of wine, and he whispered Lyanna.”Ned thought of pale blue roses, and for a moment he wanted to weep.—Ned,GoT, pg. 480.------

A lesson in human behavior.If we translate what occured and put ourselves in Cersie's shoe the first thought would be Robert was calling Cersie by the name of the woman he loved and was intimate with at one point.He certainly didn't call any other woman's name.This can swing either way Robert was doing just that to drunk to realize he wasn't in bed with Lyanna.

What can we gauge from Lyanna

Then the uncomfortable part and i want to preface this by saying take your modern sensibilities and realize this is medieval times we are dealing with.Realationship and expectations are different .That being said.we will look at the conversation used to falsely state Lyanna hated Robert,didn't want to marry him,wasn't into him and all these things not even inferred.Lyanna didn't once say "Ned i don't want to marry Robert he's a drunk and a womanizer.Can you please talk to father?" As what was done in the case of 

Dany,Brandon and Sansa.Lyanna's concern was that Robert would remain in her bed alone this is regardless of this happening during their bethothal or marriage itself.

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8. “Robert will never keep to one bed,” Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm’s End. “I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale.” Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. “Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man’s nature.” (AGOT 367)

Note: Lyanna is not going to be sleeping with him to prove him false or real,or to keep him from straying.That's not it at all so to those of you who think that its irrelevant.Keep morden sensibilities in our time.

However,it is illogical that we would think she would think she can judge him for not keeping to one bed if her bed isn't on the table and she won't sleep with him if and when he made a move .And as Ned said Robert's deeds before they got bethrothed is inconsequential.Social expectations doesn't stop couples from sleeping with eachother before marriage or during their bethrothal.

Then we have to look at Robert,what are the chances that during their entire bethrothal if the situation or occassion arrived that he would not make a play.If it did happen and given Robert's virility he would not make a move,what would Lyanna do.Answer that what would she do?

So here we have it and lots more to come. Void of symbolisms limited to what is actually said and seen and what can be inferred.

1.When you compare the quality of this evidence against Rhaegar and Lyanna it is way better. There's no wondering what someone "has" to reveal in future books.We are told by insiders and we see through the eyes of these insiders.This cannot be said of a Rhaegar and Lyanna situation 

Lastly, the one comment we have from Lyanna indicates while she was concerned about Robert only being with her there is no reason that should there be an oppurtunity they would not sleep together whether they were bethothed or married.

 

 

[Little Scribe of Naath]

@JStargaryen, about the suicide of the mother, I'd point you to the story of the "suicide" of Ashara, who was distraught over her love for Ned 

Well but the story of Bael the Bard is off-topic for this thread.

And I am not suggesting this means R + L will be the same. For all we know, it is an inversion of the tale - the official story says Rhaegar "kidnapped" Lyanna, but the truth might be different - in that, they eloped willingly.

Of course, proving or disproving R + L were in love does not in any way strengthen alternative theories of his parentage.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

@wolfmaid7, I am reposting my reply from the previous thread:

This is what your argument was:

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We are given insight into a very subtle scenario.Lyanna's words and Ned's reply.

Lyanna:"Robert will never keep to one bed."

Ned: What Robert did before the bethrothal is of no consequnce that he would be true and love her.

How likely is it that Robert don't make a play during their long bethrothal and how likely it is Lyanna rebuffed him? What does she have a problem with? Not Robert keeping her bed.Well he can't keep to it,if he can't have whenever he chose.Nobody likes to here this but the only way for Robert to keep to one bed is to bang Lyanna and not stray and marriage or not that wasn't going to be a problem because from the connotation of her convo with Ned Lyanna was not going to guard her pussy from him

 

Let me get this right....are you saying that Lyanna should have put out for Robert because he would have cheated otherwise?

 

1. Isn't that exactly what Lyanna said? That it's in Robert's nature to sleep around? Would she have to undertake this behaviour  if Robert was  a man of a different 'nature', such as Ned, Barristan, Beric, Jaime, etc.?. 

Your statement that the 'only way Robert was not going to sleep around is if Lyanna didn't guard her pussy from him' basically exactly proves what Lyanna said - It's in Robert's nature to sleep around. She wouldn't have to do this if he was a different kind of man.

2. Why should Lyanna do this, exactly? Where again, is the proof that she liked Robert enough to be motivated to 'keep him faithful' ?

3. Why do we need to resort such a convoluted interpretation of the text, which nobody except you came off with?

 

Look, the question of Jon's parentage is a puzzle meant to be solved, a mystery which a sizeable chunk of readers have to be able to decipher. Otherwise Martin comes off looking like a hack writer who pulled a twist out of thin air. The theory cannot - and should not - rest on making interpretations of the text which only no more than a couple of readers can see. 

[wolfmaid7]

11 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Of course the rape angle is relevant. It is a contending version and must be proved incorrect if another version is to stand.

Relevant when it come to proving love how.This sounds like what you are proposing is either/or.If its not rape then it must me love.Rhaegar not raping Lyanna has no bearing on if there's a case for love.

13 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Note, please, that I didn't include "cultural support" in my short essay. But now that you were so kind as to gather the clues, those who are interested may notice that there is continuous flow of these drops and that they become more frequent in the last books.

Plus, the Targaryne version cannot be dismissed as formed just on the basis of the crowning and the supposed abduction because of the fair chance of Rhaella talking to Rhaegar and passing on her knowledge.

There's no cultural "support" only belief which has a start point.As i said to you in 100% agree with you on the belief shared by most of Westeros.My issue is what caused this belief? The belief stems from Rhaegar crowning her QOLAB.In almost every single account when they are brought up together in is in this light.

Additionally, what Targ version are you speaking about? That Rhaella told ( i assume you mean Viserys) anything is just a guess based on nothing to even go on.He got the same story that the singer told.Its a paraphrasing Elder brother and his statement to Brienne about what the singers had people believeing.

29 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Ned did know things that other people didn't, and as you said yourself, things needn't be spelled out to be true. If you can use this attitude to argue the big love affair that never was between Robert and Lyanna, so can I.

Ygrain there's a difference in the quality of what i'm using than what you are using.A difference in the sources,the infomation given by the sources and seen through their eyes about this topic.

34 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Rhaegar apparently didn't cheat on Elia with whores, and didn't cheat on Lyanna, either. Plus the whole polygamy issue which would solve what you perceive as problematic, at least to a degree.

 

Your missing the point,its about visiting brothals that's a specific difference.Robert was blatant about his liason a shameful act as a king which dishonored him and Cersie.Plus Targs practice of polygamy issue doesn't address what you brought up which is Ned not thinking ill of Rhaegar on account of him having some moral edge on Robert.Which makes no difference because you lets say 

1.This is all circular reasoning on your part you haevent proved they loved eachother which would result in 

2.A marriage that you have to prove predicated on the above.

3. That Ned would see this as honorable if by chance you can prove 1 and 2

43 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

But this is still the same issue: why the hell should Ned care if Rhaegar's sexual life was more discreet than Robert's? What did it have to do with anything, after fourteen years?

To explain my point about LF. Hissacrcastic statement 

 

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Try to keep in mind for a moment that Lyanna might have chosen Rhaegar over Robert, and try to figure out what Ned might have found so tragic about this explanation.

And regardless, it is still "Lyanna" and "blue roses".

But isn't this putting the cart before the horse?Your asking me to go into this already thing that Lyanna chose Robert over Rhaegar instead of just going with evidence.

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Except that in Christ's crown, the thorns were not hidden. Here, we have more like "all roses have thorns", and hidden thorns signal a hidden danger, not shame.

Hidden or not doesn't change the meaning and i can add the thorns could indicate hidden "meaning" vs hidden "danger"

 

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

I'd rather go with the victim's own brother than the people.

Yeah me to. That's what i've been saying. But in this case Ned isn't saying anything either way and what he said could have a separate meaning.

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

And which could have been symbolic, as it was a vision. Why was the vision included if there was nothing between Rhaegar and Lyanna?

The vision just says Rhaegar murmured a woman's name......Isn't it a possibility is wasn't Lyanna.Or could t be Rhaegar just murmured something and Dany thought is was a woman's name based on the story Viserys told him of Rhaegar dying in the river for the woman he loved.Again same story the singers told.

 

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Wolfmaid, how can you make so many comprehension faults in such a short text? If we discount the rape angle, it doesn't really matter if Ned finds him better or not, but that he thinks about Rhaegar at all when he thinks about Robert's fidelity issues and Lyanna's concerns about it. If Rhaegar never had anything with Lyanna, thinking about him there makes about as much sense as thinking about Hodor.

Easy i offered you an alternative that makes sense. Little finger said and i paraphrase Lord Arryn found out that the king got some women preggers....This part is the point:

"Allow a man like that to live ,and next he's liked to blurt out that the sun rises in the east."

There's no answer Ned could give to that but a frown.For the first time in years he found himself remebering Rhaegar...

Yes LF was being sarcastic,yes what he was saying was obvious and a known fact that Robert had a lot of bastards.But it was the prospect imo of Arryn blabbing that made Ned think of Rhaegar.

The tone following Ned's womdering if Rhaegar visited brothals was not a positive that he never had liasons only that he never visited brothals.

[wolfmaid7]

6 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

@wolfmaid7, I am reposting my reply from the previous thread:

This is what your argument was:

 

Let me get this right....are you saying that Lyanna should have put out for Robert because he would have cheated otherwise?

 

1. Isn't that exactly what Lyanna said? That it's in Robert's nature to sleep around? Would she have to undertake this behaviour  if Robert was  a man of a different 'nature', such as Ned, Barristan, Beric, Jaime, etc.?. 

Your statement that the 'only way Robert was not going to sleep around is if Lyanna didn't guard her pussy from him' basically exactly proves what Lyanna said - It's in Robert's nature to sleep around. She wouldn't have to do this if he was a different kind of man.

2. Why should Lyanna do this, exactly? Where again, is the proof that she liked Robert enough to be motivated to 'keep him faithful' ?

3. Why do we need to resort such a convoluted interpretation of the text, which nobody except you came off with?

 

Look, the question of Jon's parentage is a puzzle meant to be solved, a mystery which a sizeable chunk of readers have to be able to decipher. Otherwise Martin comes off looking like a hack writer who pulled a twist out of thin air. The theory cannot - and should not - rest on making interpretations of the text which only no more than a couple of readers can see. 

Nope i am not saying Lyanna "should have put out" why would i make such a statement? It has no bearing on dictating a fictianal character's behavior.

Lyanna's belief about Robert's nature has no bearing on

1.Given her statement that Robert wouldn't keep to one bed,she was going into this not with the idea of witholding from him.That was going to happen when it happened and then being married or bethothed wouldn't be a deterent

2. I never said the only way Robert was going to be faithful is if Lyanna reciprocated if he made the move,but wheether you want to hear it or not that is the truth and the realisty of the era they were living in.

Cersie guared her pussy,prefering to sleep with others including her brother because she hated him. The result would be what? Prior to being bethrothed to Lyanna Robert wasa free agent beholding to no pussy.What he did before the bethrothal is of no consequence.And with that i bring up Ned....All these years and Ned has never thought ill of Robert being untrue to Lyanna,beacuse he was.

3.Its not a convoluted interpretation of the text it is plain and simple.Lyanna was not going to withold pussy from Robert  if and whenever he was so inclined to approach her.Her mindset going into the bethrothal was already there.Whatever her reasons that was there.

[J. Stargaryen]

Guys, I just want you to know that my explanation is the correct one whether you like it or not. QED.

[wolfmaid7]

52 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Guys, I just want you to know that my explanation is the correct one whether you like it or not. QED.

Are you speaking about me or are you just talking?Again with the misrepresentation of what is being said.You are on a roll my friend. If you are speaking about me then it would be polite to quote what i said instead of these sweeping remarks void of actually pointing out what was said..

You don't have to like it but this is Westros and it isn't a reflection of our time,sensiibilities etc.No matter how distasteful you may find it.View from 30:30-31:59

You don't have to like that men might step out,and have since the dawn of time because women decide to put padlock on their pussies.If you deny this, then you are not only naive your being dishonest.Robert and Cersie's relationship is proof of that.

In the reverse,Baelor the blessed and his queen is proof of that.She had to slip out to get cock because he won't consumate...

And lets not talk about premarital sex or sex during bethrothal.

Per this particular tale honestly ask yourselves and answer.

1. What are the chances during their bethrothal Robert didn't aproach Lyanna in a sexul manner.....Robert in his prime!! Slim you have better luck gettng water from a stone.

2. Based on Lyanna's convo with Ned and the era this is meant to imitate.What are the chances Lyanna said no?

[SFDanny]

22 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

1. What are the chances during their bethrothal Robert didn't aproach Lyanna in a sexul manner.....Robert in his prime!! Slim you have better luck gettng water from a stone.

Did Robert proposition Catelyn? Not that we know of. Why? She is the wife of his best friend and ally. Would he "dishonor" Lyanna, who is the sister of his best friend and most important ally? No. Robert can't stay to one bed, but that doesn't mean he has to be in every bed, especially the bed of his best friend's sister. It would be a great dishonor to House Stark for Robert to pressure Lyanna for sex before the wedding.

 

29 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

2. Based on Lyanna's convo with Ned and the era this is meant to imitate.What are the chances Lyanna said no?

The chances she said "no" to Robert, assuming he was stupid enough to ask, are quite high. She objects to his nature, and her nature is to tell the men in her family what she thinks, wants, and demands. I'm quite convinced that there was a split in the Stark family over Lyanna's objections to the marriage proposal of Robert. With Rickard, Brandon, and Ned thinking she had an obligation to family to wed Robert, and Lyanna and Benjen saying it is wrong to force her to marry someone she has no interest in.The likelihood Lyanna decides to sleep with Robert in order to keep him to one bed is about somewhere below zero.

[J. Stargaryen]

27 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

snip

You're making an argument that is flimsy at best and declaring it is correct. I was just pointing that out in a possibly funny, hyperbolic way.

27 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

1. What are the chances during their bethrothal Robert didn't aproach Lyanna in a sexul manner.....Robert in his prime!! Slim you have better luck gettng water from a stone.

2. Based on Lyanna's convo with Ned and the era this is meant to imitate.What are the chances Lyanna said no?

1. Uncertain. Assuming he ever had the opportunity, which is by no means a given. Especially if Rickard and Brandon were aware of his reputation, which we can reasonably assume they were since Lyanna was. So overall I think it's unlikely.

2. Highly, highly unlikely. There's nothing in that convo that makes me think she would be interested in having premarital sex with him.

[Kingmonkey]

4 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

 That said, I'm not sure why @Kingmonkey's wishes are being ignored. If the plan was to argue against general RLJ concepts, then there was no reason to have someone write an RLJ essay for this project.

Thanks for the support, but being a sanguine sort, I've decided to take this is a positive thing. After all, if the people wishing to argue against RLJ have decided the only way they can do it is to find something they deem a soft target that wasn't in my essay to go after, I guess that just means they've conceded defeat on my essay, right?

 

[Kingmonkey]

3 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Scenario 1, or Catelyn as a natural woman - Catelyn, like most people, is simply thinking fifteen years ago, based on the current year she is in minus the year she was married equals 15 years. The year 298 - 283 = 15 years. The bold being our unknown variable.

I see where you're coming from, but I don't think that is necessarily the case. For example, if they got married on the 31st of December 282, would Cat think on the 1st of Jan 298 that 298-282=16 years, when it's actually 15 years and 1 day? I don't think so. 

I don't think Cat has to be a mentat to be able to take into account the approximate time of year.

"Late 282... it''s 298 now... so it'll be 16 years late this year. It's early this year so... (sound of gears scraping) 15 years. "

3 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Yes, it is likely Aegon is born then, but there is no reason to believe he was conceived in Harrenhal. We have no idea how far along in Elia's pregnancy it is when Harrenhal happens, but for Aegon to have been conceived there we have to push the tourney back to the first quarter of the year. 

Noooo! I wasn't suggesting Aegon was conceived at Harrenhal. I was addressing your latest possible date for Harrenhal by pointing out that while there's plenty of wiggle room for when it actually took place, the end of the year is absolutely out for a terminus ante quem. It's not credible that Elia would have attended the tournament if she was late in her pregnancy with Aegon, given her state of health. As Aegon was born in 281 in Dragonstone, there must have been a period of some months between the tourney and the end of the year. 

3 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Which I think would be fine if the "clues" supporting this idea were not limited to "they wore cloaks that covered their faces" and a possible discrepancy in the time of day the ship sets sail to Dragonstone.

Yeah, I'm baffled why it gets traction myself, but I'm going for the unarguable minimum here.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Nope i am not saying Lyanna "should have put out" why would i make such a statement? It has no bearing on dictating a fictianal character's behavior.

Lyanna's belief about Robert's nature has no bearing on

1.Given her statement that Robert wouldn't keep to one bed,she was going into this not with the idea of witholding from him.That was going to happen when it happened and then being married or bethothed wouldn't be a deterent

2. I never said the only way Robert was going to be faithful is if Lyanna reciprocated if he made the move,but wheether you want to hear it or not that is the truth and the realisty of the era they were living in.

Cersie guared her pussy,prefering to sleep with others including her brother because she hated him. The result would be what? Prior to being bethrothed to Lyanna Robert wasa free agent beholding to no pussy.What he did before the bethrothal is of no consequence.And with that i bring up Ned....All these years and Ned has never thought ill of Robert being untrue to Lyanna,beacuse he was.

3.Its not a convoluted interpretation of the text it is plain and simple.Lyanna was not going to withold pussy from Robert  if and whenever he was so inclined to approach her.Her mindset going into the bethrothal was already there.Whatever her reasons that was there.

Wolfmaid, are you not suggesting that Lyanna should have reciprocated if Robert made a move on her, or else, he would have found other girls to sleep with? I just want to be clear on that before I make my argument. This reciprocation would mean sex, right?

I just want to clarify because I'm not sure how that differs from my original question:

Quote

Let me get this right....are you saying that Lyanna should have put out for Robert because he would have cheated otherwise?

which you denied as an assertion.

From what I can see, you indeed are saying it was "the reality of the time" that women should not have "guarded their pussies" or else their man would "step out."  

 

[Ygrain]

7 hours ago, Tucu said:

There is an infinite number of scenarios we can't rule out. With the information that we have we can't prove that Barristan knew more than everyone else that witnessed the events in HH.

I'm not attempting to prove it, I am requesting that it should be acknowledged that unlike 99,99% of the population, Barristan at least had an opportunity to get his info right from the source. Unlike e.g. Lord Borrell, who never talked to Ned or to the FMD.

7 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

I'd say that if we are going to compare theories for Jon's parentage, let's use the same standards to compare them on, such as: Why would Ned find the need to keep his parentage secret? What is the cover story created in case Jon looks like the father? Is it possible for Ned to have passed off Jon, age wise, as his bastard? and so on. 

That would be the so-called "Apple Martini's test question" :-)

Apple Martini is a long-time poster, currently away from the boards.

[wolfmaid7]

3 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Did Robert proposition Catelyn? Not that we know of. Why? She is the wife of his best friend and ally. Would he "dishonor" Lyanna, who is the sister of his best friend and most important ally? No. Robert can't stay to one bed, but that doesn't mean he has to be in every bed, especially the bed of his best friend's sister. It would be a great dishonor to House Stark for Robert to pressure Lyanna for sex before the wedding.

Huh ? I'm confused by how Cat got into this? I would think if he propositioned Cat Ned would cut his head off seeing as Cat is Ned's wife.Lyanna was Robert's bethrothed.Furthermore,there would be only dshonor if.

1.Robert talked about it to anyone inclusing Ned.

2.Lyanna talked about it to others.

3.Someone found out and disclosed it in some way ( which is what i'm saying Rhaegar did crwoning her with winter roses)

So in a nutshell which one of these idiots would you peg for talking about what they did?

3 hours ago, SFDanny said:

The chances she said "no" to Robert, assuming he was stupid enough to ask, are quite high. She objects to his nature, and her nature is to tell the men in her family what she thinks, wants, and demands. I'm quite convinced that there was a split in the Stark family over Lyanna's objections to the marriage proposal of Robert. With Rickard, Brandon, and Ned thinking she had an obligation to family to wed Robert, and Lyanna and Benjen saying it is wrong to force her to marry someone she has no interest in.The likelihood Lyanna decides to sleep with Robert in order to keep him to one bed is about somewhere below zero.

To the bolded i disagree why would she say no? She has no reason to say no to Robert. She doesn't dislike him and she doesn't object to marrying him.Yet she didn't tell Ned or anyone that she didn't want to marry Robert.She had a concern about him staying to her bed,but there's no timeline for when that is.We would think that given the taboo surrounding sex and marriage that they would wait.But SFDanny,we no this isn't the reality of what happens.

For whatever reason that may occur,be it succor,loneliness,pressure,attraction sex happened alot of times in this story.

Do you remember Jon's conversation with Tourmond about Ygritte? 

"Now as to you . . . is it true they cut your members off when they take you for the Wall?"

"No," Jon said, affronted.

"I think it must be true. Else why refuse Ygritte? She'd hardly give you any fight at all, seems to me. The girl wants you in her, that's plain enough to see."

(Snip)

Do you mislike the girl?" Tormund asked him as they passed another twenty mammoths, these bearing wildlings in tall wooden towers instead of giants.

"No, but I . . . " What can I say that he will believe? "I am still too young to wed."

"Wed?" Tormund laughed. "Who spoke of wedding? In the south, must a man wed every girl he beds?"

Jon could feel himself turning red again. "She spoke for me when Rattleshirt would have killed me. I would not dishonor her."

"You are a free man now, and Ygritte is a free woman. What dishonor if you lay together?"

What i'm showing here is despite social conventions and expectations under the right circumstance and in the right environment shit like this happens.I'm proposing that such an environment was Harrenhal where according to Harwin When speaking of Harrenhall tourney:

 

Quote

 

“There’s nothing like a tourney to make the blood run hot, so maybe some words were whispered in a tent of a night, words or kisses maybe more, but where’s the harm in that Spring had come-Harwin to Arya-(ASOS,Arya)

 

SFDanny,you keep saying something that Lyanna never voiced.There's no indication then she didn't want the marriage and there's no indication years later via Ned's thoughts that they were'nt going to marry had she lived.

2 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

Yeah, I'm baffled why it gets traction myself, but I'm going for the unarguable minimum here

Kingmonkey and SFDanny just to keep things on track can we hold this off for when we talk about timeslines.Againit would be easier if we handle one piece at a time.

1 hour ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Wolfmaid, are you not suggesting that Lyanna should have reciprocated if Robert made a move on her, or else, he would have found other girls to sleep with? I just want to be clear on that before I make my argument. This reciprocation would mean sex, right?

I just want to clarify because I'm not sure how that differs from my original question:

Little scribe i'm not suggesting Lyanna should have reciprocrated,i am not in a position to tell Lyanna what she should do.I'm merely saying that based on Lyanna's statement if Robert had ever made a romantic move she would not have said no.Logically, speaking how can one accuse someone of not keeping to your bed if you have no intention of putting out.Putting out in Lyanna's case has no timeline and that's the honest truth.There's a social expectation,but they are not bound to that rule.It can happen at anytime when the time would be right.And again there's no indication that Lyanna disliked Robert,hated Robert didn't want to marry Robert that's an invention.

1 hour ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

which you denied as an assertion.

From what I can see, you indeed are saying it was "the reality of the time" that women should not have "guarded their pussies" or else their man would "step out."  

I'm saying Lyanna putting out to keep Robert faithful wasn't neccessary.My assertion was against the idea that seems somehow crazy to you guys that this the way this isn't appening in the books as it happens in real life.

If a woman withhold sex from a man it doesn't matter be it a day,week a year depending on how long he can hold out.He is going to find something or someone to stick it in.This is as old as dirt.

There's a difference it me saying someone "should" do something and "would" do something.You keep saying i'm saying saying Lyanna "should have" slept with Robert WTFr

3 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

Thanks for the support, but being a sanguine sort, I've decided to take this is a positive thing. After all, if the people wishing to argue against RLJ have decided the only way they can do it is to find something they deem a soft target that wasn't in my essay to go after, I guess that just means they've conceded defeat on my essay, right?

I think you all have to be a bit patient and read through peoples post. I very clearly said on my second and post that every prospect should post "their evidence" for love and that because RLJ is said to be the standard we will use that.

[wolfmaid7]

3 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

I'm not attempting to prove it, I am requesting that it should be acknowledged that unlike 99,99% of the population, Barristan at least had an opportunity to get his info right from the source. Unlike e.g. Lord Borrell, who never talked to Ned or to the FMD.

But Ygrain Barristan Selmy said very clearly that he 

" Can't speak to what might have been in Rhaegar's heart."

He doesn't know anything beyond what everyone in Westeros knows.This is from Baaristan's mouth.

6 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

That would be the so-called "Apple Martini's test question" :-)

Apple Martini is a long-time poster, currently away from the boards.

Ok what??? How is this a thing? Who decided Apple Martini's "test question" can be used to determine anything.

Ned has good reasons to hide Jon if he's Robert's as i pointed out.

 

[Ygrain]

5 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Relevant when it come to proving love how.This sounds like what you are proposing is either/or.If its not rape then it must me love.Rhaegar not raping Lyanna has no bearing on if there's a case for love.

That's why I included the third option, as well. I did exclude options like "Lyanna seduced Rhaegar as a part of some scheme / used him to sate her sexual needs" etc., which have no textual support nor any narrative reason.

5 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Additionally, what Targ version are you speaking about? That Rhaella told ( i assume you mean Viserys) anything is just a guess based on nothing to even go on.He got the same story that the singer told.Its a paraphrasing Elder brother and his statement to Brienne about what the singers had people believeing.

Singers simplify the whole war as some sort of Helen scenario, which was not the case. And unlike the singers, Viserys and Barristan at least had contact with the source.

5 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

But isn't this putting the cart before the horse?Your asking me to go into this already thing that Lyanna chose Robert over Rhaegar instead of just going with evidence.

It's still association between Lyanna and blue roses, whichever way you turn it. What I was offering was an interpretation why the memory made Ned want to cry. Sure, Robert dooming his marriage because of whispering a dead girl's name is tragic, but it doesn't explain why Ned should think about blue roses instead of something more explicit.

5 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Hidden or not doesn't change the meaning and i can add the thorns could indicate hidden "meaning" vs hidden "danger"

Whoah, sure it does. The use of thorns in symbolism is not restricted to that of shame. 

5 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

The vision just says Rhaegar murmured a woman's name......Isn't it a possibility is wasn't Lyanna.Or could t be Rhaegar just murmured something and Dany thought is was a woman's name based on the story Viserys told him of Rhaegar dying in the river for the woman he loved.Again same story the singers told.

GRRM said it was Lyanna, just as he confirmed that Brienne said "sword".

Plus, if someone murmurs something you don't understand, there is no way you can deduce it was a woman's name. The whole paragraph of the visions uses more generic terms instead of specific descriptions, even though Dany knows what she saw - a stone beast (she would know what it looked like), a blue flower (later specified as a rose), a woman's name. She knows what name it was.

 

5 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Easy i offered you an alternative that makes sense. Little finger said and i paraphrase Lord Arryn found out that the king got some women preggers....This part is the point:

"Allow a man like that to live ,and next he's liked to blurt out that the sun rises in the east."

There's no answer Ned could give to that but a frown.For the first time in years he found himself remebering Rhaegar...

Yes LF was being sarcastic,yes what he was saying was obvious and a known fact that Robert had a lot of bastards.But it was the prospect imo of Arryn blabbing that made Ned think of Rhaegar.

The tone following Ned's womdering if Rhaegar visited brothals was not a positive that he never had liasons only that he never visited brothals.

And what would Arryn, or anyone else, blab that would make Ned think of Rhaegar? As in, not just be reminded of him, but accessing his memories way more thoroughly than he had in years, to form a conclusion? What secret did Rhaegar have that Ned bothers fourteen years later? It is still the same problem - why should Ned start thinking about Rhaegar at all.