Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 2

[wolfmaid7]

11 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Except that at the point when he becomes Jon's guardian, your reasoning doesn't apply yet. Cersei and Robert married in 284.

Ygrain we will look at this when we look at "Jon's age".We could do that net thread.

 

[LynnS]

3 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Looking at the recent post mine included,i think we are going off topic again...Lets try and reign it back in.

Sorry, I don't think it's possible to look at only one mystery child since I think they all tie in together.  But anyway I have to get groceries.  Cheers.

[wolfmaid7]

1 minute ago, LynnS said:

Sorry, I don't think it's possible to look at only one mystery child since I think they all tie in together.  But anyway I have to get groceries.  Cheers.

We can certainly bring that in later on,i'm sure this will be relevant when we talk about the whole time line and Jon's age.

[Ygrain]

20 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Infact what you did provide indicates that the notion of Rhaegar loving Lyanna came about as a result of the percieved meaning behind him crowning her. Outside of that there is no evidence in support of this.No one who can give us any evidence in the form  visual,or personal knowledge and info that would indicate love atleast from Rhaegar's part.

minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Ygrain this table is utter and total "kaka" it totally ignores emotinal evidence,it totally ignores critical thinking when it comes to interaction between individual....

Gosh, I am so awfully sorry.... I was only trying to provide the hardcore data which you were so intent on requesting for Rhaegar's case and compare with the other cases.

[Sly Wren]

15 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

Of course we have no first hand account of the "kidnapping." That would be giving away the mystery.

Right. And Lysa's confessional coming too soon would have been giving away that mystery. But just because he hasn't given it to us doesn't mean the answer is the one that's more obvious/well-supported to either the reader or the people in world.

15 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

That doesn't mean all sides of the rebellion don't agree on the simple fact Rhaegar took Lyanna. They certainly disagree on what that act was - kidnapping, escape, elopement, etc. - but everyone in world agrees who the two main players in the drama are. 

Agreed. But many in world agree that Tyrion and Sansa killed Joffrey. They even have multiple witness. 

And that Ned is a traitor--he made a public confession. 

And that Robert was just killed by a boar.

And that the Others don't exist. Or don't exist any more. 

Martin's given us a lot of things that people believe and even witnessed that aren't actually correct.

15 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

This is written for Robert's benefit and it confirms just what Robert thinks, but it also speaks to what is universally accepted that it was Rhaegar who ran away with Lyanna.

Agreed. And, like the things I listen above (plus others), that (maddeningly) doesn't mean it's accurate. Plus, the Maester gets all snotty and says: 

Quote

But that tale is too well-known to warrant repeating here.

Humph!

15 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

The Targaryen family account agrees that is was Rhaegar who took Lyanna:

Yup! And the Stark family account is that Jon is Ned's son. And even for a while, that Tyrion is involved in Bran's maiming. Not to mention the list above.

Don't misunderstand me--Rhaegar as Jon's father is still obviously very likely. But when we make lists of evidence of the in-world knowledge that Rhaegar ran off (one way or another) with Lyanna, we're stuck with the in-world mess of intrigue and lies and active misdirects and mistakes that Martin has written us into.

At present, one way I prefer to look at Jon's parentage is: what is Jon learning, seeing, and symbolically tied to? Based on that question, Rhaegar falls very short.

But that's obviously not the only question to ask, either.

[wolfmaid7]

6 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Gosh, I am so awfully sorry.... I was only trying to provide the hardcore data which you were so intent on requesting for Rhaegar's case and compare with the other cases.

Your data is skiewed and you keep skipping over what i said to falsify the claim in totality. As i said so many times Ygrain,and i agreed with you on this to be exact.You can't just go by how much someone appeared or didn't appear on page with someone interacting.If so then Ned would only have seen Lyanna 3 times in their lives and his statement about him loving her with all his heart would make no sense....Yuh did?

Their are markers in the form of ,banta,behavior,emotions that indicate relationship.

Loras gave Sansa a rose annnnnnd nothing?He interacted with her.Did that make them lovers,did they know eachother?

 

 

[Ygrain]

10 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Your data is skiewed and you keep skipping over what i said to falsify the claim in totality. As i said so many times Ygrain,and i agreed with you on this to be exact.You can't just go by how much someone appeared or didn't appear on page with someone interacting.If so then Ned would only have seen Lyanna 3 times in their lives and his statement about him loving her with all his heart would make no sense....Yuh did?

Their are markers in the form of ,banta,behavior,emotions that indicate relationship.

Loras gave Sansa a rose annnnnnd nothing?He interacted with her.Did that make them lovers,did they know eachother?

When someone starts depicting Sansa repeatedly with a red rose, I might start giving this proposition a thought.

BTW, you can't claim for Robert even that.

 

[Kingmonkey]

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

 @Kingmonkey: the site shut me down twice when I tried to respond to this from the last thread. My apologies for the delay.

(deletes 41 line breaks that it took before the board decided to accept a break in the quote) Yeah, the board software here is awful, replying is often a struggle. 

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

But he specifically ties her to Dany. In the same book where Quaithe shows up again and asks Dany to “remember” who she is.” Barristan’s comment comes out of literally nowhere—seems like a pointer.

To Barristan, beautiful purple-eyed Ashara is the one who got away, and he's regretted it and dwelt on it for 20 years. All this time later he finds himself hanging out with beautiful purple-eyed Dany, who just about the same age Ashara was at Harrenhal. If this seems to come somewhat out of the blue, so does the revelation that Barristan the man-machine turns out to be a romantic at heart. We're getting to see behind Barristan's armour at last, and in that context this all seems pretty natural. 

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

Martin goes much further with the vision and with Dany’s seeing herself in Rhaegar’s armor. Rhaegar looks at Dany when he’s with his children, talking of his plans, and says “there must be one more.” It’s family-planning specific. And directly tied to Dany. 

Right, but at least one of those two awaiting a third is dead, which kind of puts the dampers on Dany being the "one more" for that particular trio. 

The thing about Dany in Rhaegar's armour is certainly an interesting one. I don't see that as being symbolism that implies a paternal relationship though. We actually do get a case of someone wearing someone else's armour -- Garlen Tyrell wearing Renly Baratheon's armour. Garlen is portraying Renly reborn, taking his role, and I'd say that's exactly what's going on with Dany in Rhaegar's armour.

By saying "there must be one more", Rhaegar is talking about his intention to parent three dragons. Rhaegar failed to do that. Dany succeeded. She's wearing Rhaegar's armour, because she has taken Rhaegar's role, taken up Rhaegar's banner -- just as Garlan did.

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

This is one of those times we could really use Ned’s journal. This is possible. But as I said above, he is connecting silencing talk of Ashara with silencing talk of Jon’s origins.

I disagree. Cat makes the connection, and the reader is invited to make the connection. Does Ned actually make the connection?

"Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady." 

Let's break that down.

"Never ask me about Jon" <-- here's the bit about Jon, obviously.

"He's my blood, and that's is all you need to know" <-- this conversation is over.

"And now..." <-- Now that's out of the way, I have something else to say. Having ended the conversation about Jon, he brings up a secondary issue.

"I will learn where you heard that name" <-- He wants to know the source of the rumours so he can squash them, but he's very specific that he's asking for "that name", not simply the source of rumours in general.

Let's not forget just how early in the books this conversation takes place, all the way back in GoT chapter 5. On first reading, it seems to settle the case. At this point we're only looking for Jon's mystery mother, and the strength of Ned's feeling here seems to pin down Ashara as the mother of Ned's bastard. Yet from here on in we get clue after clue that Jon's parentage is not what it seems. When we go back to this memory of Cat's with that thought in mind, the grammar here makes more sense. Ned's not just talking pompously -- he has a genuine and emotionally powerful response to Cat, of all people, using "that name". 

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

But would loving Ashara and returning the sword realm make up for killing Arthur? I could see those offsetting Daynish rage. But Ned Dayne’s convo with Arya (let alone his nickname) strongly suggest a stronger respect. Seems like something else is up.

Well I'd suggest the possibility that Ashara loved Ned back, and the pair had hoped to get married before politics forced Ned into marrying Cat. There's even the possibility of a pregnancy to consider. So perhaps the Daynes know that there was supposed to be an alliance between the Starks and the Daynes. I think this gives us some context for Ashara's suicide, and the oddity of Ned's admission "I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men," if in fact he's not Jon's dad. It explains much of Ned's 15 years of regret, and gives some context for one of the intriguing symmetries of the ToJ showdown: the sword of the morning's sad smile, and Ned's reply to him,"Now it ends", with sadness in his voice. 

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

One way or another, we have to wonder why Rhaegar sat out that war. The World Book makes it clear that both Tywin and Rhaegar wanted Aerys off of the throne. And that Tywin once tried to use someone else’s rebellion to get it done. And that Rhaegar’s unspecified plans at Harrenhal got undermined.

Jaime gives us this from Rhaegar: "When this battle's done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but . . . well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return." That seems to indicate that Rhaegar's concerns have been elsewhere. It's only when he forced to re-engage with the politics of Westeros that he's getting back onto that road not taken. I think that tells us that whatever Rhaegar has been up to so far, his mind was not on the war or the politics of Westeros, and hadn't been for some time. 

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

If Lyanna ended up with them by accident, she’d end up knowing things, no? As Jon does. As Sansa and Arya do. Handing Lyanna back too soon might mean handing Ned information.

That's true enough, but consider the practicalities. There's no way that Ned and Robert are going to just forget about Lyanna. Whatever happens, they're going to come for her. Returning Lyanna to Ned might mean that Ned gets information they don't want him to have, but it would give them breathing room. Hand her over at the ToJ and Ned's still a week away from Starfall. What benefit does fighting him there bring?

[Little Scribe of Naath]

2 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

The singer deliberately spun the tale. Bael--and later, we have Bael-ish also spinning tales and manipulating history to get what he wants. From Jon Arryn's murder onwards. 

I'd like to add that there is a common theme through the books of singers distorting reality completely in their songs. Off the top of my head, I can think of the songs of Joffrey and Cersei's valor during the PW, that quote about singers saying the war was over Lyanna, and so on.

Not a stretch at all, IMO, to think that Bael spun his tale totally different from the reality. And as you say, 'Bael'ish is a master at doing the same.

Bael the Bard is off-topic for this thread...so I'll reign it in here. 

2 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

UP! The "real" ending is about kinslaying--yet another reason why I think it might be pushing against Rhaegar as Jon's father. Ned the Lord of Winterfell doesn't kill Rhaegar. Not an act of kinslaying on Ned's part for Rhaegar to die.

Ned kills Arthur. Then takes an artifact back to a towered castle. Then a woman throws herself from a tower.

While I agree with you that the real ending is about kinslaying (for example, Sansa, the "daughter" of Baelish possibly killing him), Ned is not related to Arthur. 

2 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Perhaps--but the World Book is not subtle about the fact that something was very wrong about the crowning from the start. That it was clear form the start that the roses weren't the standard compliment to a pretty girl.

But there is another aspect here, Sly Wren, which we have to take into account. Lyanna was said to be very fond of blue roses. Blue roses now are not that common of a flower, and would not be a natural choice for the crown of QOLAB, unless there was some other reason - which could only have been that Rhaegar was trying to woo Lyanna. His behaviour that day was very much in line for a guy trying to impress a girl  - entering the lists, winning over all the rest of the contenders and handing her a crown of her favorite roses (with the tip of his lance, heh). It's not something he had ever done before, but it's not unlikely that a guy would do something unusual to win over the girl he likes.

Obviously all the smiles died because he passed over his own wife and made a very public show of his interest in the betrothed of another man.

However, meta-textually/symbolically, I would agree with you the presence of blue roses in the story might indicate something else  - love gone sour, grudge matches, politics, deceit, using a girl as a pawn, so on. Somewhat like how  the presence of 'Arbor Gold' in a scene usually indicates that whatever is going on is a farce.

[SFDanny]

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

What mystery everyone "knew" Rhaegar took her from the get there's no mystery there.The mystery would be if he didn't.

Of course there is, the mystery is why the abduction takes place, not the fact it took place, and the details of the actual event would give that away.

 

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

This isn't written for Robert's benefit,this is what he thought because he was led to believe this is what happened.And again what is universally accepted isn't always true.These people all of them were led to think this what happened because it would make for an epic tale.If its one thing we know in this story is many times over what is wildely accepted isn't the truth.I have asked this over and over and i'm asking you again.

Of course it is. Read the title page of Maester Yandel's work and you see Robert's name clearly visible but erased, along with Joffrey's name written over Robert's but also erased but still visible, and Tommen's name written over them both. 

What is accepted by many is not always true. In that much you're right, but usually we have clues that point in another direction. We have no clues that someone else is responsible for Lyanna's "abduction." We only have wild speculation based on some fan's wishes for alternate interpretations.

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

1.Where is Arya? Is she in Braavos of is she currently married to Ramsey Bolton.

2.Who killed Joffrey? Is is Tyrion with the aid of Sansa or was it the Queen of thorns.

3. Ned went to his grave believing the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn.Stannis still believes that the Lannisted killed JA.This is the kind of story GRRM has built.

In each of these cases we know the answer because we get clues and facts to show the contrary. None of these examples have the universal acceptance of in world characters that Rhaegar running off with Lyanna does. You are creating a mystery out of whole cloth where there is none.

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

He has given us info that raises doubt that Rhaegar took Lyanna or they ran off together:Somebody wanted it to look as if Rhaegar took Lyanna.More importantly they wanted Brandon to overreact and he did.

Where? Your two examples of the author's comments don't show this in the least. They have nothing to do with the case of Lyanna and Rhaegar. Did the fifteen year old severely wounded Littlefinger create this enormous plot from his litter as he was carried back to the Vale?

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

“And then there are some things that just don’t square with history. In some sense I’m trying to respond to that. [For example] the arranged marriage, which you see constantly in the historical fiction and television show, almost always when there’s an arranged marriage, the girl doesn’t want it and rejects it and she runs off with  the stable boy instead. This never fucking happened. It just didn’t. There were thousands, tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of arranged marriages in the nobility through the thousand years of Middle Ages and people went through with them. That’s how you did it. It wasn’t questioned. Yeah, occasionally you would want someone else, but you wouldn’t run off with the stable boy………”

And yet, he has the Prince of Dragonflies run off with the wild girl from the riverlands for love. He even abdicates his claim to the throne for her. Martin demonstrates in this quote he understands real world historical reality, but that doesn't mean he won't play with exceptions to those realities in his own world.

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

“And that’s another of my pet peeves about fantasies. The bad authors adopt the class structures of the middle Ages<snip>they have scenes where the spunky peasant girl tells off the pretty prince. The pretty prince would have raped the spunky peasant girl. He would have put her in the stocks and then had garbage thrown at her. You know. I mean, the class structures in places like this had teeth. They had consequences. And people were brought up from their childhood to know their place and to know that duties of their class and the privileges of their class. It was always a source of friction when someone got outside of that thing. And I tried to reflect that.”GRRM.

Yes, class structures and privileges have "teeth." Martin shows us this in his world. He shows us how Prince Duncan has to abdicate his right to the throne, and Ser Duncan has to fight a duel with the Laughing Storm, and Duncan's sister has to marry the Lord of Storm's End's son to placated and patch over the nobles offended by Duncan's actions.

He shows us the vicious "teeth" of Tywin Lannister when he destroys Tyrion's marriage to Tysha through a gang rape and lies. 

And he shows us how the dishonoring of the Starks and the Baratheons by Rhaegar taking away Lyanna leads to a huge conflict between the crown and the two Houses, and ultimately to rebellion and civil war. But neither Rhaegar or Lyanna are the "stable boy" or the "spunky peasant girl" in the above two examples. They are both among the highest and most privileged of the noble class of Westeros. As such, Martin's remarks have nothing to do with their case. His history of the tensions between Aegon V Targaryen and the Lord of Storm's End does directly effect the actions that happen after Lyanna's kidnapping. Here we are talking about the Royal House impinging on fundamental rights of a High Lord to make marriage pacts for his children, and the importance to a Houses's honor for their word and their rights to be respected. None of that is covered in the above quotes.

[wolfmaid7]

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

When someone starts depicting Sansa repeatedly with a red rose, I might start giving this proposition a thought.

BTW, you can't claim for Robert even that.

Then you are missing the underlining point i think.In both the case of Bael and Sansa the gift of the rose was not meant as a gift of love.

Loras gave to Sansa because you know it was The Hand's tourney so why not.And Bael left the rose for the Maiden,maiden's hood.Now,let's look at the outcome of Rhaegar's gift.....Pissed off the Starks and his cousin and set the entire realm's tounge ablaze.

For all the honor ,intelligence and dutifullness Rhaegar was said to have possed you mean to tell me Baelish was more of a man than he was!!!!

Wouldn't it be better to you know challenge Robert to a duel?Just a thought.

You can claim everybody in Westeros "knew or believed" Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna.I am saying what "everybody" knew about Rhaegar and Lyanna in reality won't fit on the tip or a pin.

When you look at what these people knew,you realize they know nothing.They have nothing in 5 books to add beyond the rumour mill and that is thr truth Ygrain.That is the truth that you won't cop to.

I'm not trying to claim Robert gave Lyanna anything other than a baby But what i have demonstrated and you can't is emotional evidence and intent.

1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

Of course there is, the mystery is why the abduction takes place, not the fact it took place, and the details of the actual event would give that away.

Verbatum Ran i see.......after individuals started pointing this is clearly not a mystery given some of the more foundational elements of  RLJ.But i'll bite again SFDanny.Still not a mystery that he abducted her on account of some prophecy or because he took leave of his senses isn't a mystery.Let's say RLJ is true then it would be either or and it takes no digging to reveal that.It will be confirmation that he kidnapped her for some prophetic purpose or it will be confirmation of love.

So no the details wouldn't give that away because the details are surface wise.

2 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Of course it is. Read the title page of Maester Yandel's work and you see Robert's name clearly visible but erased, along with Joffrey's name written over Robert's but also erased but still visible, and Tommen's name written over them both. 

What is accepted by many is not always true. In that much you're right, but usually we have clues that point in another direction. We have no clues that someone else is responsible for Lyanna's "abduction." We only have wild speculation based on some fan's wishes for alternate interpretations.

Ok now we are getting to the nitty gritty.Yandel's entries reflects not truth or lies but what was being said.You are however wrong is saying there's no proof pointing to someone else that is fairer statement to make because you don't accept it or don't like it doesn't mean its not there or another angle.You all look but you do not see because you don't discern the sublty and anomalies of...for instance human behavior.Or for instance what the author chooses to be ambiguous about when there's no call for it.Something that should be there but isn't and obvious only by its absence.Case in point.

Even after we are told in Bran's POV that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna we have this curious line from Cat that lends credence to to ambiguity 

1. Brandon took off to KL "when he heard about Lyanna" 

That in itself is nothing though it would seem more natural to say "when he heard Lyanna was taken" 

But that is put into more doubt when Jamie recounts Brandon's entry.

"He demanded that Rhaegar come out and die." not that his sister be returned to him and the prince face him and die.

Then we have Ned's internal monologue after the incident in the throne room

2. "He set off in a cold rage to go fight the last of the wars in the south."

We didn't need to get a specific location but if conventional thinking holds shouldn't he have gone off to find his sister?

3.Robert has Rhaegar on the ropes going to deliver the blow and you don't ask" by the way where is Lyanna.?"

4.At the point in time during the rebellion nobody knows why they are fighting other than for cash or because their Lords fought for oneside or the other. Ned's trip to the Sisters was recounted to Davos and Lord Borrell speaks of Robert as a Rebel whom Rhaegar would defeat easily.Ned's reply is even more telling because it was about winning or loosing.No where is it even mentioned this was about justice ,getting his sister back.This was open rebellion,no one knew anything about it being about Lyanna until after the fact when it became the cover story.

5.Lastly,Rhaegar's final conversation before he left for the Trident and his famous " My royal sire is much more afraid of your father than our cousin Robert." 

WTF? Seriously was Rhaegar so disconnected you want to evoke familiarity like that when you ran off with 'your cousin's bethrothed?"

No SFDanny these aren't fly by night assertions just because we want.Its important questions raised....These are those markers when taken together indicates that no one was looking for Lyanna because she wasn't missing.I don't even think Robert new at the time he killed Rhaegar that she was missing.I think by the time Robert killed Rhaegar Lyanna was already dead.

2 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Where? Your two examples of the author's comments don't show this in the least. They have nothing to do with the case of Lyanna and Rhaegar. Did the fifteen year old severely wounded Littlefinger create this enormous plot from his litter as he was carried back to the Vale?

See the above...I actually brought this up before.

2 hours ago, SFDanny said:

And yet, he has the Prince of Dragonflies run off with the wild girl from the riverlands for love. He even abdicates his claim to the throne for her. Martin demonstrates in this quote he understands real world historical reality, but that doesn't mean he won't play with exceptions to those realities in his own world.

First and i'm just asking for clarity where is it stated Jenny of Oldtone was wild?

Yep Duncan did all that he was a bethothed who broke his bethothal and married a common girl,then he abdicated his throne and it all ended with single combat.I know all that,but i'm not even talking about him playing with the exception and there are key differences in that case.Differences which cause me to utter again if true Baelish had more balls that Rhaegar.Plus,i think what Martin is trying to say is exactly what you said in the reverse. Its not always a situation where the girl runs away from a marriage because she wants someone else.

2 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Yes, class structures and privileges have "teeth." Martin shows us this in his world. He shows us how Prince Duncan has to abdicate his right to the throne, and Ser Duncan has to fight a duel with the Laughing Storm, and Duncan's sister has to married the Lord of Storm's End's son to placated and patch over the nobles offended by Duncan's actions.

He shows us the vicious "teeth" of Tywin Lannister when he destroys Tyrion's marriage to Tysha through a gang rape and lies. 

And he shows us how the dishonoring of the Starks and the Baratheons by Rhaegar taking away Lyanna leads to a huge conflict between the crown and the two Houses, and ultimately to rebellion and civil war. But neither Rhaegar or Lyanna are the "stable boy" or the "spunky peasant girl" in the above two examples. They are both among the highest and most privileged of the noble class of Westeros. As such, Martin's remarks have nothing to do with their case. His history of the tensions between Aegon V Targaryen and the Lord of Storm's End does directly effect the actions that happen after Lyanna's kidnapping. Here we are talking about the Royal House impinging on fundamental rights of a High Lord to make marriage pacts for his children, and the importance to a Houses's honor for their word and their rights to be respected. None of that is covered in the above quotes.

Got no problem with the X'd out .I disgree with your statement that neither Lyanna nor the Rhaegar are stable boy or spunky peasent girl.Not literally,its the class issue one that Aerys and Rhaegar affirms in two separate instances.

1. Tywin when proposing Cersie for Rhaegar as a wife...What did Aerys tell Tywin? How did he refer to him?

2. How did Rhaegar refer to Jamie when he wanted to accompany Rhaegar?

3.Why did Aerys send all the way to the free cities to look for a wife?

4. Why did Rhaegar marry a Princess?

5. What behind the whole Dragon and Lion rhethoric of who doen't bow before whom.

There's hierarchy even among the nobles.

[wolfmaid7]

3 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Right. And Lysa's confessional coming too soon would have been giving away that mystery. But just because he hasn't given it to us doesn't mean the answer is the one that's more obvious/well-supported to either the reader or the people in world.

Yeah but here's the difference...Lysa's involement WAS a mystery that was a shocker,but the clues were there.There's no mystery behind the so called abduction of Lyanna by Rhaegar.That's on the cereal box,if true his reason was on the cereal box to.

Nobody who believes this theory is wondering why he did it.

Its because he read something in a book that led him to Lyanna Stark but eventhough at first it was purely prophecy they eventually fell in love while the world burned.

This idea makes Lyanna look like she has no agency at all.

[Runaway Penguin]

Let me just pop in re. the Dayne connection.... Not sure if you are not reading too much into it. If it was importnat... We would get more context from the stories. ESPECIALLY if connected to Jon.

 

Instead, we have basically just Ned's fever dream and few lines from Edric, which also concern more Ned than Daynes. Now given to what details GRRM goes on other houses important to the story (even the Martells - even if absent, they pop up all the time in comments), pulling sudden superimportant Dayne connection (as in family line) would be kinda jumping the shark. Maybe with Dany, though then the entire swap on Dragonstone is suspicious (unless the swap happened in the Free Cities - Viserys may not be able to tell one baby from another, but then again the house with red door inconsistency would apply either way)... But it really does not fit for Jon. The only Dayne connection important there is being born under bleeding star - the sword Dawn, covered with blood.

 

My personal guess, for the house with red door, is that it is another case of Renly's eyes  

 

 

[Voice]

4 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

(deletes 41 line breaks that it took before the board decided to accept a break in the quote) Yeah, the board software here is awful, replying is often a struggle.

 

Jumping Joffreys. Still?!

 

@wolfmaid7, I was just curious if the Ned+Ashara one was ever posted.

[LynnS]

36 minutes ago, Runaway Penguin said:

Let me just pop in re. the Dayne connection.... Not sure if you are not reading too much into it. If it was importnat... We would get more context from the stories. ESPECIALLY if connected to Jon

The Dayne connection is the Dawn Sword itself.  What does Sam say about missing pages in a book; that they are like holes in the world. There are plenty of references to Jon pale as a stone as all memory of warmth leaves his body.  The morningstar he sees when he wakes up; shaped like a sword.  i'm sure someone will post their essay here detailing all that good stuff. It's not what you see in the magician's hand; it's what he's hiding up his sleeve.  It's the stuff that flies under the radar that shouldn't be dismissed.  GRRM isn't going to spell it out for anyone.

[wolfmaid7]

42 minutes ago, Voice said:

 

Jumping Joffreys. Still?!

 

@wolfmaid7, I was just curious if the Ned+Ashara one was ever posted.

You were suppose to PM me the essay no? We never really got one for Ned + Ashara but i would ike to post it.And i PM'd you again to resend me the summary.

[Voice]

2 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

You were suppose to PM me the essay no? We never really got one for Ned + Ashara but i would ike to post it.And i PM'd you again to resend me the summary.

 

It was posted at the Hearth. So short, it doesn't really need a summary. LOL

If you're interested, it's here:

http://thelasthearth.com/post/2795/thread

But I was just asking in case I needed to offer some rebuttals. I don't mind not having to do so. LOL

[LynnS]

6 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Well... we don't know if Ashara killed herself during his visit or afterwards. And I can't imagine a reason which would make her abandon her own baby and fake suicide.

Dany is her baby girl who it's rumored died in childbirth. It's a constant theme when someone is disappeared.  Ashara has Lyanna's baby in her possession; a trade for Jon; a guarantee of surety between both parties.  Ashara has every reason to live.  Her brother lived by the sword and died by the sword. Death of a father, brother, son is a way of life and women carry on.

[wolfmaid7]

1 hour ago, Voice said:

 

It was posted at the Hearth. So short, it doesn't really need a summary. LOL

If you're interested, it's here:

http://thelasthearth.com/post/2795/thread

But I was just asking in case I needed to offer some rebuttals. I don't mind not having to do so. LOL

Ok,cool.I'll add it to the set.

[Kingmonkey]

6 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

There's hierarchy even among the nobles.

Absolutely, and Lyanna was just below the very top of the social pyramid.

6 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

1. Tywin when proposing Cersie for Rhaegar as a wife...What did Aerys tell Tywin? How did he refer to him?

That was a studied insult. Targaryens had married into the major and even larger minor houses for centuries.

6 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

2. How did Rhaegar refer to Jamie when he wanted to accompany Rhaegar?

The son of a Lord he's afraid of? I'm not sure what you're getting at. If you mean crutch, then no, that's not really how Rhaegar refers to him. That's how he refers to Aerys' desire to keep Jaime close.

6 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

3.Why did Aerys send all the way to the free cities to look for a wife?

Because of his (and the family) obsession with "pure" Valyrian blood. That's why so many Velaryans (otherwise a third tier house) married into the Targ dynasty. Also driven by Aerys' paranoia -- he didn't want to empower any of his rivals, which might encourage rebellion. It's quite feasible that the reason Rhaegar ended up with Elia was exactly because of the candidate houses, the Martells offered Aerys the least threat, and were thus most acceptable to Aerys. 

6 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

4. Why did Rhaegar marry a Princess?

The hierarchy doesn't work on title. If the Emperor of Haiti and the Archduke of Austria-Hungary were visiting the Court of St.James at the same time, which do you think would be granted the highest honour? The Martells were allowed to retain the princely honorific, but as a not particularly powerful major house, they'd be considered marginally below the first rank major houses such as the Starks, Lannisters and Tyrells.

When it comes to the eligible nobility of Westeros, the potentials go something like this:

1. Eldest daughters of major great houses: Cersei Lannister, Lyanna Stark, Elia Martell, Lysa Arryn, (Janna Tyrell?)
2. Younger daughters of major great houses: Catelyn Arryn, (Mina Tyrell?)
3. Daughters of other old and rich vassal great houses such as the Hightowers, Velaryans, Freys, Manderleys, Daynes, Redwines etc.
4. and on... through ranks of vassal great houses, relatives of major and vassal great houses, lesser houses, petty nobility, rich merchants, landholders, etc. 

Exact precedence of the rank 1 candidates would be down to which house was considered most politically powerful / influential / useful at the time, but it would be very fine gradings. Even rank 3 could easily push above in terms of desirability if the circumstances were right (for example, Mace's marriage to Alerie Hightower represents the great importance of the Hightowers to Tyrell rule). Elia would not jump above the daughters of richer and more powerful houses just because she had the title "Princess" rather than "Lady", any more than the Emperor of Haiti goes before the Archduke of Austria-Hungary just because he calls himself "Emperor."

That's kind of irrelevant though. Lyanna was one of the four or five most eligible daughters in Westeros, whichever order you want to put those five in. Lyanna may have been below Rhaegar in that hierarchy, hell she could even have been below Elia, but she's still above 99.999975% of the female population of Westeros (assuming 20 million women). 

That's not stable-boy territory, that's the cream of the cream of the cream.