Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 2

[Little Scribe of Naath]

9 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Agreed--the moment with the Sword is ephemeral. But it's also very specific. His previous POV chapter is at night. Stars with him and Ghost on a hill, both looking at the stars, while Jon keeps asking "who am I." There are too many stars with too many names and he gets nowhere.

But when he comes out of the cave he "allowed himself to hope." Right then, looking at the stars again, there's no confusion. No multiple choice on "who am I." Only the Sword of the Morning.

Doubt takes him over again. But that moment, especially in context with his previous POV chapter--that's Jon's moment of seeing. He loses the moment. But he clearly had it.

I don't know if I really buy that - he's not really having an identity crisis when he sees the stars, he's just contemplating how people can see the same things in such a different way (appropriate metaphor for this thread :P)

Quote

So many stars, he thought as he trudged up the slope through pines and firs and ash. Maester Luwin had taught him his stars as a boy in Winterfell; he had learned the names of the twelve houses of heaven and the rulers of each; he could find the seven wanderers sacred to the Faith; he was old friends with the Ice Dragon, the Shadowcat, the Moonmaid, and the Sword of the Morning. All those he shared with Ygritte, but not some of the others. We look up at the same stars, and see such different things. The King's Crown was the Cradle, to hear her tell it; the Stallion was the Horned Lord; the red wanderer that septons preached was sacred to their Smith up here was called the Thief. And when the Thief was in the Moonmaid, that was a propitious time for a man to steal a woman, Ygritte insisted. "Like the night you stole me. The Thief was bright that night."

As I pointed out, his self doubt continues into the next couple of chapters after that, so I don't know if the stars and the SOTM constellation were a big turning point for him.

Pretty clearly, the Westerosi have named the last constellation visible before dawn breaks as the Sword of the Morning, similar to how they have named the constellation pointing North as the Ice Dragon. So the last one left when the rest clear will obviously be the SOTM constellation, it can't be another one. This more mundane interpretation could be a possible one too, especially as Jon is indeed musing on the naming of constellations in this passage.

9 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Agreed re: Jorah. The problem, though, is still that Martin brings up Bael, Sansa will Marillion, and the Blue Bard. If Martin didn't give us those, I'd agree that the Jorah parallel made more sense.

But the roses--Martin keeps bringing us back to them. And the context is always treachery and attack. Not love. He's got no reason for things like the Blue Bard unless he's trying to tell us something about the roses' meaning.

I'm leaning towards the possibility it was a combination of many motives driving Rhaegar that day, not just one - we don't have information to tell us which parallel is stronger in this case.

10 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Plus, Lyanna's young recklessness--not sure that would make Ned less annoyed with an older married man with clear responsibilities.

If Rhaegar ended up with Lyanna by accident, I can get Ned's attitude to Rhaegar. But if he ignored his vows and responsibilities and ran off with her. . .. that's really hard to buy.

I don't know if we can take Ned's attitude towards Rhaegar as anything more than a hint towards the fact that he was not a rapist. I mean, in almost every theory trying to explain RR, Rhaegar was irresponsible in some way or the other. 

If he was framed by someone and Ned didn't know it, Ned would still consider him irresponsible. If Ned knew who framed him, then that brings in many other loopholes in the tale - namely, as SFDanny pointed out, why would Ned keep such a thing secret and not bring the culprit to justice.

[LynnS]

25 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Pretty clearly, the Westerosi have named the last constellation visible before dawn breaks as the Sword of the Morning, similar to how they have named the constellation pointing North as the Ice Dragon.

I find it curious that one one hand; the wall is described as an ice dragon always in the context of the cold and the wind:

The wind was gusting, cold as the breath of the ice dragon in the tales Old Nan had told when Jon was a boy.

The road beneath the Wall was as dark and cold as the belly of an ice dragon and as twisty as a serpent.

The wind was blowing from the east along the Wall, cold as the breath of the ice dragon in the tales Old Nan used to tell.

And Benjen describes it as:

He had once heard his uncle Benjen say that the Wall was a sword east of Castle Black, but a snake to the west .

So basically we have a east/west orientation for the wall and a north/south orientation for the ice dragon constellation. We're told that to navigate north follow the eye of the dragon and to go south; follow the serpent tail of the ice dragon.  That's very curious no; especially given Quaithe's strange directions; to go west go east and to go north go south. So in other words; travel east until you get to Westeros and start at the southern most point (Starfall) and travel north until you meet Jon (AA- aka morningstar) and bring him the sword, lady Light bringer, 'deliverer' of the dawn sword, the Morningstar, hung up in a tower in the south.

Jon took a breath of the crisp morning air and allowed himself to hope. The eastern sky was pink near the horizon and pale grey higher up. The Sword of the Morning still hung in the south, the bright white star in its hilt blazing like a diamond in the dawn, but the blacks and greys Jon IV  Storm.

 

[wolfmaid7]

23 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Now who is being too literal? 

In Robert Baratheon's mind, Lyanna became his, in the sense of "his property" the moment the betrothal became official. He owned her, in his mind. That's what he meant by "mine again".

Only "one party"? Also, "individuals that knew them both" - in other words, people not in the relationship - have a clearer picture of the relationship than the two actual participants in said relationship? Really?

One can also know the kind of relationship two people had by paying attention to the behavior and statements of the OTHER PARTY in the relationship. I mean, both people are important in a relationship between the two of them, yes? It's abundantly clear that the relationship between the two was one thing in Robert's mind, but a completely different thing in Lyanna's mind. She was, at best, dubious about him as a long-term partner.

After expressing her doubt to Ned, Ned was left with nothing much to say except to lamely hope that Robert will change and be more grown-up at some future point, but Ned sure seems to be less than 100% in his assurance there.

Nonsense. Robert had no way of knowing that Lyanna didn't reciprocate his feelings; in the first place, there is no indication that he ever paid any attention to her at all and he wouldn't have concerned himself with her opinion even if he had. She's a mere woman, she's only supposed to obey the men in her life and that's that.

Besides, it's just not true that Ned's appeal means nothing. Ned's trying to appeal to the better side of Robert by evoking a time when he was a better person than he became later; when he actually felt love for another person (Ned as well as Lyanna) instead of the bitter, loveless, nasty, uncaring man he had turned into. Lyanna's feelings - or lack thereof - don't enter into it. Ned's only trying to move Robert.

Of course the societal expectation stopped some people in Westeros from engaging premarital relations. Of course it did. Just because there were some people who didn't abide the societal norms, doesn't mean that nobody did.

It doesn't put any start date on Robert keeping to one bed because Lyanna was pretty certain such a "start date" didn't exist. Remember, she said Robert would NEVER keep to one bed and that love can't change a man's nature. It's interesting to me how you continually gloss over the word "never" in your interpretation of that conversation. It's a pretty uncompromising word; it sure subtracts a whole bunch of credence from your thesis.

GRRM can also show NO interaction as an indication of the actual relationship between Lyanna and Robert - in the sense that they really didn't have an actual relationship with each other. Robert ignored her and she was dubious about him before running off with another man. That was their relationship.

There's really no secret there. Robert talks about Lyanna, but demonstrates zero knowledge of her personality or her character; he talks about her mainly in the context of how disappointing Cersei is to him. When he had the opportunity to spend some quality time with her at the Tourney, he decided to hang with his bros and drink his brains out instead.

Lyanna in flashback is dubious and has extreme reservations about marriage to him. Likewise, when she had the chance for some quality time with him at the Tourney, she instead decided to spend her time mooning over the crown prince and playing at knight. 

And readers are perfectly able to piece together the form of their relationship; it's right there on the page, written in English. Those words do not indicate the relationship that you say they do; they say the opposite, in fact. There was no there there. That is the nature of their "relationship"; that's how GRRM wrote it.

The fact is, is that not once have you been able to account for the complete contradiction between what you maintain and what GRRM actually wrote into his books.

1.Not being literal at all,looking at people's behavior....Robert's behavior as if Lyanna was his,is because she was his.Just as Lysa thought Baelish was hers,and Ygritte thought Jon was hers and she was his.Not in the way of her being property.Nothing in Robert's statement or behavior indicates he viewed Lyanna as property.Nothing in Ned's statement indicates Robert viewed his sister as property.That is you neglecting a valid proposal and its based on nothing except what "you think is Robert's motive." None of which is supported by Robert's behavior,his words or Ned's feeling on the matter.

2.Yes,just as one can tell a man's relatioship with a woman( though she be dead or they broke up) without him having to say " That was my girlfriend or that was my wife."

3.Ned's Little girl,one doesn't need the presence of both people at the moment to know what type of relationship they had:

 

Quote

“She was more beautiful than that,” the king said after a silence. His eyes lingered on Lyanna’s face, as if he could will her back to life. <Snip> “Ah, damn it, Ned, did you have to bury her in a place like this?” His voice was hoarse with remembered grief.”<Snip>. “The king touched her cheek, his fingers brushing across the rough stone as gently as if it were living flesh.”

TThis is not a man speaking about a woman he (1) didn't know and (2) didn't have an intimate relationship with.More importantly his behavior is mentaly vocalized via Ned's POV and this is not a man describing the behavior of a guy who just wanted a girl and he didn't have her.

“Her {Cersei’s} eyes burned, green fire in the dusk, <snip>. “The night of our wedding feast, the first time we shared a bed, he called me by your sister’s name. He was on top of me, in me, stinking of wine, and he whispered Lyanna.”Ned thought of pale blue roses, and for a moment he wanted to weep.—Ned,GoT, pg. 480.------

LN Little girl,this quote is a  nail in the coffin-----Behavior in context.

44.Ned lamely hope Robert would be faithful to Lyanna? Everything Ned says was true.Robert not only loved his sister he was true to her.If Robert wasn't Ned wouldn't think of him in high regard when it came to Lyanna.He wouldn't keep envoking Robert's love for his sister.He certainly wouldn't be fond of Robert if he did.

5.5.This idea you all have that in Robert's eyes Lyanna was a mere woman who Robert wouldn't and couldn't be bothered with is an untterly monolitic  arguement.One made nonsensical by Ned's affirmation of Robert's love for his sister.

6.6. Robert not keeping to one bed is dependant on Lyanna's bed being his not to keep ...to i can't even finish this without cracking up because its right there in black and white the connotation of her statement

AAnd this debate with you is now IMO in the area of being pointless as you are not bringing up any rebuttal of sense,only what you feel based on what? I have no clue.

23 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

No it absolutely does not indicate anything about Lyanna's involvement in their intimacy.  Robert loved her and was betrothed to her.  She was "taken" and he wishes he could get her back. There is nothing in "mine again" to even suggest that he had laid claim to Lyanna in any way other than as her intended spouse.

He idealised her, and still does fifteen years later.  He's speaking from the viewpoint of a man obsessed with a woman he didn't really understand, and who he lost before she was truly his.

Yeahhhhh there is,sorry to break that to you.For one and just as an example.Its the same with Baelish and Lysa,Lysa who accused Cat and her father for "taking" Petyr away from her.There realtiionwhip was intimate.

You guys throw out things as a rebuttal and i'm not sure you think about what you say before you do.

What pray tell gives you the idea that Robert didn't understand Lyanna? Are you speaking about this quotefrom Ned that is continually explained wrongly:

"You never knew Lyanna as I did, Robert"

This has nothing to do with "how much Robert knew Lyanna" and more to do with what capacity compared to Ned.Ned's relationship with Lyanna was different to Robert's.Robert as Lyanna's bethrotheddidn't have the same relationship as Ned her brother.

22 hours ago, WSmith84 said:

Yeah, I don't really see how one can interpret Lyanna's comment of 'Robert will NEVER keep to one bed' to mean that Lyanna slept with him. Because, surely, if Robert will never keep to one bed then it doesn't matter if Lyanna puts out or not. If she puts out, Robert will stray. If she doesn't, Robert will stray. Because Robert will never keep to one bed. So why would she bother sleeping with him?

This has nothing to do with Robert straying or not straying.We already know what Lyanna thinks in regards to that.Her " will never keep to one" statement doesn't have a start date.......That is the point? Its not dependant on them being married.

[WSmith84]

8 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

This has nothing to do with Robert straying or not straying.We already know what Lyanna thinks in regards to that.Her " will never keep to one" statement doesn't have a start date.......That is the point? Its not dependant on them being married.

Yeah, I really don't understand how this is proof of anything. Robert's lack of faithfulness doesn't have a start date? Could have easily guessed that. How does this demonstrate that Lyanna would therefore sleep with Robert? Why would she? That Robert might try it on with her before they're married sure. I just don't see any reason that she would agree to it. Not to keep him faithful, as this quote demonstrates the exact opposite of that; nothing anyone could do could keep Robert faithful.

[wolfmaid7]

21 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

HA! I apologized because I think I gave the wrong impression.

But yes--this is evidence. Definitive proof? We won't get that until we get the whole story. But it's definitely evidence.

Yup!

Okay....Nothing is definitive proof that's why we are all here.It occurs to me that there are two schools of thought.One takes everything that's said as gospel.Eventhough we are given a story where nothing is as it was stated to be.Again i bring up the case of Arya's location and how her being said to be married to Ramsey and is at WF royally effs a lot of things when it comes to identity.Her identity was stolen and people think she's in a place and in a state she isn't. Even Jon thinks Arya got married to Ramsey.

Ned went to his grave thinking the Lannisters killed JA. Is Little finger ever going to be exposed as the culprit forJA and Lysa.Who the hell knows Sansa ay never reveal that. Will it ever come to light that Jamie pushed Bran out the window? This may never happen.It goes to show you how much of these events started because someone said so and no one double chacked.

Rhaegar being set up for Lyanna's is in the cards the hand just has to be played to show us how and by whom.A question was asked about Ned's knowledge in this and i direct attention to how much of the truth in the scenarios above aren't known.

11 hours ago, LynnS said:

Ned does describe Robert in his youth as every maiden's fantasy: tall, dark and muscled all over.    It's not hard for me to imagine Lyanna responding to that kind of masculinity.  They were betrothed for some time and there's nothing to say they never had contact before the Tourney.  Teenage hormones and all that.  Robert's emotional pair bond with Lyanna could very well be a result of intimate relations..

Bingo and again i would add one can know how close two people were without GRRM or anyone giving and actuall blow by blow of their life story.

Despite us seeing Ned three times on page with Lyanna  after being sent to the Erie to be fostered when he was 8 are we to conclude that the only time he saw her was

1.Night of the bethrothal

2.Harrenhall

3.Day she dies ?

No,no not at all... Him saying he loved her with all his heart,her referring to him as "dearest Ned" ,Ned saying that "Robert didn't know Lyanna as he did" tells us that despite us seeing them 3 times on page they were close.Emotional evidence.

You get none of this with a Rhaegar/ Lyanna scenario.No one can contribute nothing beyond a rumor of Rhaegar running off with her because that is all they know.

[SFDanny]

1 hour ago, wolfmaid7 said:

What pray tell gives you the idea that Robert didn't understand Lyanna? Are you speaking about this quotefrom Ned that is continually explained wrongly:

"You never knew Lyanna as I did, Robert"

Wolfmaid, the quote doesn't stop there. Here is the full quote.

Quote

"You never knew Lyanna as I did, Robert," Ned told him. "You saw her beauty, but not the iron underneath. She would have told you that you have no business in the melee." (AGoT 258) bold emphasis added.

Ned is telling Robert, Lyanna would not have put up with his bullshit. He is saying she would speak up for herself and tell him when he was wrong. We see this part of Lyanna's character when she scatters the squires at Harrenhal, and when she defies her father in learning swordplay. Now, I'm not sure how when she tells Ned that his best friend will never end his wandering ways from bed to bed, that means she is going to acquiesce to his dishonoring her. Regardless, if one believes Lyanna is ever attracted to Rhaegar, I don't see how one can read the descriptions of Lyanna and come up with her wanting anything to do with Robert.

[maudisdottir]

1 hour ago, wolfmaid7 said:

 Robert not keeping to one bed is dependant on Lyanna's bed being his not to keep ...to i can't even finish this without cracking up because its right there in black and white the connotation of her statement

Except she made this comment on the night they became betrothed, at Winterfell.  So are you saying that under her father's roof on the night of their engagement she had sex with her fiancé then went straight to her brother to discuss ruefully how unfaithful her future husband is going to be?  Yeah it's funny, but not for the reasons you think.

Your arguments are all based on things not being in the text, then telling everyone else they don't understand how to read/think because they're not pulling stuff out of their buttholes to fill in the wide, gaping chasms in your theories.  It doesn't help that you're so condescending and patronising to everyone who disagrees with you.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

1 hour ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Yes,just as one can tell a man's relatioship with a woman( though she be dead or they broke up) without him having to say " That was my girlfriend or that was my wife."

And the said guy never talks of any times they spent together. Never tells us of how Lyanna liked this, or Lyanna used to do that. Guy and girl are betrothed and apparently really in love, but they don't even sit and talk together during one of the biggest parties of the year. Said guy says he loves the girl, but when she is apparently being raped, he fathers a girl (Bella) during the war. Said girl's brother tells the guy - "You only saw her beauty and not the steel underneath/ You never knew her as I did (A.K.A, you didn't know her well at all)". Said girl's brother also thinks - "Hey, that other guy who my sister might have been "raped" by - he'd never do what Robert is doing, visiting brothels". 

Forgive me if I find your interpretation that they had such a beautiful love story unrealistic. Maybe I'm old school, but I'd prefer that there would have been some hints of a mutual attraction between them before this hypothetical sex at Harrenhal.

1 hour ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Her {Cersei’s} eyes burned, green fire in the dusk, <snip>. “The night of our wedding feast, the first time we shared a bed, he called me by your sister’s name. He was on top of me, in me, stinking of wine, and he whispered Lyanna.”Ned thought of pale blue roses, and for a moment he wanted to weep.

Surely he would want to weep, thinking of how Robert loved Lyanna and fought a war for her, but she never loved him back. How he lives under the delusion that she was raped, but the reality was that she chose another man. And how that fantasy of Robert's has affected another woman's life too, driving her to betray him in a similar fashion. 

And if blue roses is the clue, it's Rhaegar who gave her those at HH.

1 hour ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Robert not keeping to one bed is dependant on Lyanna's bed being his not to keep ...to i can't even finish this without cracking up because its right there in black and white the connotation of her statement

AAnd this debate with you is now IMO in the area of being pointless as you are not bringing up any rebuttal of sense,only what you feel based on what? I have no clue.

Tyrion being a dwarf is "black and white" in the text, not this. No offense meant here, Wolfmaid, but this is just your interpretation and we're all allowed to disagree with you. 

1 hour ago, wolfmaid7 said:

This has nothing to do with "how much Robert knew Lyanna" and more to do with what capacity compared to Ned.Ned's relationship with Lyanna was different to Robert's.Robert as Lyanna's bethrotheddidn't have the same relationship as Ned her brother.

Context is everything, as SFDanny pointed out, and you would think that a guy who was so deeply in love with a girl should know her almost as well as her brother did.

[Ygrain]

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

TThis is not a man speaking about a woman he (1) didn't know and (2) didn't have an intimate relationship with.More importantly his behavior is mentaly vocalized via Ned's POV and this is not a man describing the behavior of a guy who just wanted a girl and he didn't have her.

“Her {Cersei’s} eyes burned, green fire in the dusk, <snip>. “The night of our wedding feast, the first time we shared a bed, he called me by your sister’s name. He was on top of me, in me, stinking of wine, and he whispered Lyanna.”Ned thought of pale blue roses, and for a moment he wanted to weep.—Ned,GoT, pg. 480.------

LN Little girl,this quote is a  nail in the coffin-----Behavior in context.

Fourteen years later, it is a behaviour of a guy with a pretty unhealthy obsession.

BTW, that Ned quote is supposed to mean that Ned knew that Robert and Lyanna had premarital sex? I can't recall if you mentioned this previously, but shouldn't this, you know, come up at some point in Ned's PoV in some way? I mean, his best friend deflowered his child-woman sister, who was then just the age of Barra's mother, to whom we know Robert swore love undying and forgot all about it. That's one hell of a parallel, yet you would have us believe that Lyanna's comment about Robert's infidelity is not meant as negative - or that, from Ned's point of view, it is not meant as negative?

[The Ned's Little Girl]

4 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

6.6. Robert not keeping to one bed is dependant on Lyanna's bed being his not to keep ...to i can't even finish this without cracking up because its right there in black and white the connotation of her statement

 

Believe me, there was a fair amount of incredulous laughter on my end as well.

 

4 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

AAnd this debate with you is now IMO in the area of being pointless as you are not bringing up any rebuttal of sense,only what you feel based on what? I have no clue.

Then I'll just tell you: it's based on the novel series A Song of Ice and Fire by George R.R. Martin. I've read them and I understand the meanings of the English words that he used to write them. But since you seem to be discussing some other books that only exist in your own imagination, I can see that further discussion is pointless indeed.

 

[Ygrain]

8 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Then I'll just tell you: it's based on the novel series A Song of Ice and Fire by George R.R. Martin. I've read them and I understand the meanings of the English words that he used to write them. But since you seem to be discussing some other books that only exist in your own imagination, I can see that further discussion is pointless indeed.

Yeah, there seems to be quite some fanfic around. Very AUish

Anyway. Time for another neat sum up, ladies first this time.

Narrative payback of Jon's parentage:

Ned + Ashara:  Dayne blood  for wielding Dawn

                         Jon's dream of a highborn mother come true

Ned + Wylla: ???

Ned + FMD: ???

Lyanna + Rhaegar: a song of ice and fire, whatever that means

                              some interesting fire and blood  and warging combo

                              a drop of Dayne blood  for wielding Dawn

                              dream of a highborn mother come true

                              angst of being the family enemy's son

                              an heir to the throne if legitimate

Lyanna + Robert: Robert's eldest bastard son

                             angst of not being recognized and legitimized by his father

Lyanna + Arthur: Dayne blood  for wielding Dawn

                            angst of being a soiled KG's son

Lyanna + Howland: crannogman and perhaps CotF magic heritage

Lyanna + Mance: fitting in with the Wildlings a wee bit more than he already does

 

 

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Ned + Wylla: ???

Nah, Wylla is an assumed identity for traveling incognito especially for a noble woman who doesn't want to be recognized or has had her previous identity killed off.  It is the unspoken matter that stands between Ned and Catelyn.  She hears rumors of Ned's love for Ashara Dayne and comments that she didn't care if Ned took solace in another woman while on campaign.  She hardly knew him when they were married and he didn't stick around.  She doesn't see him again until after the war.  It's curious to me that she says some very specific things about Ned's infidelity; she brings up Ashara's name and taking solace in another woman.  This isn't battle lust or taking physical release "like other men"; it has the context of shared grief.  In that way Ned is not like other men.  We're given to understand that there is no stain on Ned's honor for what might have happened at the Tourney between them because neither was betrothed.  So the stain occurs after Ned's marriage to Catelyn where Ned says that he dishonored himself in the eyes of gods and men.  So something witnessed and repeated at Winterfell.  Which points to the Fisherman's Daughter story where a common woman who is pregnant or recently pregnant receives a bag of silver and sent on her way.  This is the way other men do it and so assumptions are made.  The identity of the woman in question is never clear but there is a good chance that those traveling on ship; perhaps Jon's wetnurse knew the identity of this woman.   The reason why Catelyn specifically brings up Ashara's name in the context of giving solace and why Ned so vehemently demands to know who is talking. ... Somebody talks... somebody always talks. That's the nature of Ned's dishonor towards Catelyn.  A last encounter with his first love before she goes away and he takes up his new life.

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Lyanna + Rhaegar: a song of ice and fire, whatever that means

                              some interesting fire and blood  and warging combo

                              a drop of Dayne blood  for wielding Dawn

                              dream of a highborn mother come true

                              angst of being the family enemy's son

                              an heir to the throne if legitimate

Lyanna + Robert: Robert's eldest bastard son

                             angst of not being recognized and legitimized by his father

i'll just add a couple things here:

Lyanna + Robert: Robert's eldest bastard son; potential legitimized Stark bastard

                               Warging blood through maternal line and targ blood through the Baratheon line                              

                               Connection to the Gardener/Durrandon ancient bloodlines and the Horned Lord

                                The appearance of two horns at the Wall; one presented directly to Jon by Ghost

                                Dayne blood not a requirement for claiming the Dawn Sword; worthiness and honor as a requirement

                                Jon's associations with the morningstar; and sword symbolism of the Wall along with

                                comet symbolism

                                the potential Darth Vader reveal; relevance of bastardy Snow and Storm

                                ditto highborn mother

                                R'llor's instrument; fiery hand of R'hllor

                                Fire and Ice combo as a joining together of forces or opposing forces rather than a   

                                merging of bloodlines.

                               

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Nah, Wylla is an assumed identity for traveling incognito especially for a noble woman who doesn't want to be recognized or has had her previous identity killed off.  It is the unspoken matter that stands between Ned and Catelyn.  She hears rumors of Ned's love for Ashara Dayne and comments that she didn't care if Ned took solace in another woman while on campaign.  She hardly knew him when they were married and he didn't stick around.  She doesn't see him again until after the war.  It's curious to me that she says some very specific things about Ned's infidelity; she brings up Ashara's name and taking solace in another woman.  This isn't battle lust or taking physical release "like other men"; it has the context of shared grief.  In that way Ned is not like other men.  We're given to understand that there is no stain on Ned's honor for what might have happened at the Tourney between them because neither was betrothed. 

That is true from only a certain point of view. Neither broke any promise, but Ned was still NOT supposed to have sex with a girl he wasn't married to, especially if she had been a virgin.

The reason why Cat thinks there must have been something special between Ned and the unknown woman is not because of some "specialty" on Ned's side, she makes clear that she understands men's needs, but the fact that he never says her name, which Cat interprets as a sigh of deep affection, and feels threatened by it.

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

So the stain occurs after Ned's marriage to Catelyn where Ned says that he dishonored himself in the eyes of gods and men.  So something witnessed and repeated at Winterfell.  Which points to the Fisherman's Daughter story where a common woman who is pregnant or recently pregnant receives a bag of silver and sent on her way.

The FMS was before the marriage to Cat, so no, it doesn't qualify, either.

ANd I have no idea what you mean by the bolded because Ned's stay at Winterfell during the Rebellion precedes the marriage, as well.

 

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

  This is the way other men do it and so assumptions are made.  The identity of the woman in question is never clear but there is a good chance that those traveling on ship; perhaps Jon's wetnurse knew the identity of this woman.   The reason why Catelyn specifically brings up Ashara's name in the context of giving solace and why Ned so vehemently demands to know who is talking. ... Somebody talks... somebody always talks. That's the nature of Ned's dishonor towards Catelyn.  A last encounter with his first love before she goes away and he takes up his new life.

Cat doesn't bring up Ashara in any specific context. She has no idea who Jon's mother might have been, and Ashara's is the only name she hears, in the connection of Ned visiting Starfall to return Dawn, and the tall and beautiful Ashara awating him there.

[Ygrain]

29 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Robert's eldest bastard son; potential legitimized Stark bastard

Legitimized by whom and what connection does it have to Robert being his father?

29 minutes ago, LynnS said:

                               Warging blood through maternal line and targ blood through the Baratheon line 

Ah, forgot about the Targ blood on the Baratheon side. True.

29 minutes ago, LynnS said:

                               Connection to the Gardener/Durrandon ancient bloodlines and the Horned Lord

The significance for the ASOIAF storyline being...?

29 minutes ago, LynnS said:

                                The appearance of two horns at the Wall; one presented directly to Jon by Ghost

Related to Robert being the father how?

29 minutes ago, LynnS said:

                                Dayne blood not a requirement for claiming the Dawn Sword; worthiness and honor as a requirement

That would count for all the potential fathers and mother.

29 minutes ago, LynnS said:

                                Jon's associations with the morningstar; and sword symbolism of the Wall along with

                                comet symbolism

                                the potential Darth Vader reveal; relevance of bastardy Snow and Storm

                                ditto highborn mother

                                R'llor's instrument; fiery hand of R'hllor

                                Fire and Ice combo as a joining together of forces or opposing forces rather than a   

                                merging of bloodlines.

And these are supposed to pertain to which parentage combination? 

[ravenous reader]

15 hours ago, SFDanny said:

I don't see how one can read the descriptions of Lyanna and come up with her wanting anything to do with Robert.

I agree.  I also don't see how one can read the descriptions of Robert and think Lyanna, whom we're led to believe had a no-nonsense character much like Arya's, would be fooled, let alone beguiled.  Lyanna is more similar to Arya than Sansa.  

Arya, unlike many of the other Starks, can see through illusion.  She's naturally good at 'the lying game'...seeing behind the masks people wear...even before she gets to Braavos and starts training in earnest with the faceless men.  She always knew who Joffrey or Cersei were at base, for example, without having to learn the hard way like Sansa.  A Bael-ish or Robert would never have been able to seduce Arya, nor I believe Lyanna.  An example of Arya's psychological insight:

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Cat Of The Canals

Cat was thinking about the fat boy, remembering how she had saved him from Terro and Orbelo, when the Sailor's Wife appeared beside her. "He sings a pretty song," she murmured softly, in the Common Tongue of Westeros. "The gods must have loved him to give him such a voice, and that fair face as well."

He is fair of face and foul of heart, thought Arya, but she did not say it. Dareon had once wed the Sailor's Wife, who would only bed with men who married her. The Happy Port sometimes had three or four weddings a night. Often the cheerful wine-soaked red priest Ezzelyno performed the rites. Elsewise it was Eustace, who had once been a septon at the Sept-Beyond-the-Sea. If neither priest nor septon was on hand, one of the whores would run to the Ship and fetch back a mummer. Merry always claimed the mummers made much better priests than priests, especially Myrmello.

The weddings were loud and jolly, with a lot of drinking. Whenever Cat happened by with her barrow, the Sailor's Wife would insist that her new husband buy some oysters, to stiffen him for the consummation. She was good that way, and quick to laugh as well, but Cat thought there was something sad about her too.

Behind all that jocular bluster, Robert was a selfish, craven, pathetic and rather callous creature, 'foul of heart.'  A fake friend, who inevitably let down the loyal Ned, whom he treated like his lap-dog-- a role with which Ned unfortunately complied.  Unlike Ned and Sansa, however, Arya and Lyanna are no-one's lap dog; they have the wolfsblood and a wolf is not so easily taken in, although given to rashness -- one should draw a distinction between a failure of insight vs. impulse.  Lyanna and Arya may on occasion be guilty of the latter, but not the former.  In fact, Lyanna tried to educate her brother Ned as to the truth of his false friend Robert, to no avail.  Regardless of any signs to the contrary, Ned was blindly devoted to Robert, and this oversight arguably led to his death.

This is a telling example of Robert's 'foul heart':

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard III

All Ned could do was take her in his arms and hold her while she wept. He looked across the room at Robert. His old friend, closer than any brother. "Please, Robert. For the love you bear me. For the love you bore my sister. Please."

The king looked at them for a long moment, then turned his eyes on his wife. "Damn you, Cersei," he said with loathing.

Ned stood, gently disengaging himself from Sansa's grasp. All the weariness of the past four days had returned to him. "Do it yourself then, Robert," he said in a voice cold and sharp as steel. "At least have the courage to do it yourself."

Robert looked at Ned with flat, dead eyes and left without a word, his footsteps heavy as lead. Silence filled the hall.

Robert was not 'the true steel' -- he was leaden, dead-eyed, and treacherous.  Ultimately, of all the parties implicated, I hold him most responsible for the death of Lady.  I don't believe Lyanna would have loved someone this cruel and hard-hearted.  Unless he violently forced himself on her, I don't believe he's Jon's father.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

That is true from only a certain point of view. Neither broke any promise, but Ned was still NOT supposed to have sex with a girl he wasn't married to, especially if she had been a virgin.

But Dornish girls are different, no?  Their sexual mores seem very open if Oberyn and the Sand Snakes are anything to go by.  Harlan says that this sort of thing happens at tourneys; a little spooning and little kissing; maybe more, maybe not.  There was no stain on his name.  But clearly there was  a mighty powerful attraction for Ashara's sister to say that she loved Ned.   Ah... young love.

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

The reason why Cat thinks there must have been something special between Ned and the unknown woman is not because of some "specialty" on Ned's side, she makes clear that she understands men's needs, but the fact that he never says her name, which Cat interprets as a sigh of deep affection, and feels threatened by it.

She thinks she knows men's needs.  Does she really? How does a newly married woman know about men's needs?  She makes a generalization about it and applies it to Ned; a man she barely knows.

 

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

The FMS was before the marriage to Cat, so no, it doesn't qualify, either.

ANd I have no idea what you mean by the bolded because Ned's stay at Winterfell during the Rebellion precedes the marriage, as well.

Well, i could have this wrong because I'm absolutely horrible with timelines.  Was there not an inversion of this tale; the Northman's Daughter where Ned was seen at the Sisters near the end of the war?  Potentially bringing Jon home at the time.  And didn't Catelyn actually stay at Riverrun until Ned returned with Winterfell and Jon was already there.  My short term memory sucks these days, an aging problem.

 

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

That is true from only a certain point of view. Neither broke any promise, but Ned was still NOT supposed to have sex with a girl he wasn't married to, especially if she had been a virgin.

The reason why Cat thinks there must have been something special between Ned and the unknown woman is not because of some "specialty" on Ned's side, she makes clear that she understands men's needs, but the fact that he never says her name, which Cat interprets as a sigh of deep affection, and feels threatened by it.

The FMS was before the marriage to Cat, so no, it doesn't qualify, either.

ANd I have no idea what you mean by the bolded because Ned's stay at Winterfell during the Rebellion precedes the marriage, as well.

 

Cat doesn't bring up Ashara in any specific context. She has no idea who Jon's mother might have been, and Ashara's is the only name she hears, in the connection of Ned visiting Starfall to return Dawn, and the tall and beautiful Ashara awating him there.

Yes, quite possibly, but correct me if I'm wrong; Catelyn specifically says that she didn't care if Ned found solace in another woman.  This is very different from saying that Ned was lust driven like other men.  That's something for which she could forgive him.  In Cat's mind, Jon is the proof of Ned's love for this other woman. Even though Ned not Jon's father.  So Ned's dishonor in his mind has to do with a dalliance with Ashara after he was married to Catelyn and that was observed by people and gossiped about at Winterfell on Ned's return.  Someone saw something and talked.    

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

Legitimized by whom and what connection does it have to Robert being his father?

Ah, forgot about the Targ blood on the Baratheon side. True.

The significance for the ASOIAF storyline being...?

Related to Robert being the father how?

That would count for all the potential fathers and mother.

And these are supposed to pertain to which parentage combination? 

I'm not going to argue these points with you Ygrain. I think this is ground that has already been presented and you should have included it in any summary without selecting only the points in favor of your narrative.   

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

I agree.  I also don't see how one can read the descriptions of Robert and think Lyanna, whom we're led to believe had a no-nonsense character much like Arya's, would be fooled, let alone beguiled.  Lyanna is more similar to Arya than Sansa.  

Arya, unlike many of the other Starks, can see through illusion.  She's naturally good at 'the lying game'...seeing behind the masks people wear...even before she gets to Braavos and starts training in earnest with the faceless men.  She always knew who Joffrey or Cersei were at base, for example, without having to learn the hard way like Sansa.  A Bael-ish or Robert would never have been able to seduce Arya, nor I believe Lyanna.  An example of Arya's psychological insight:

Behind all that jocular bluster, Robert was a selfish, craven, pathetic and rather callous creature, 'foul of heart.'  A fake friend, who inevitably let down the loyal Ned, whom he treated like his lap-dog-- a role with which Ned unfortunately complied.  Unlike Ned and Sansa, however, Arya and Lyanna are no-one's lap dog; they have the wolfsblood and a wolf is not so easily taken in, although given to rashness -- one should draw a distinction between a failure of insight vs. impulse.  Lyanna and Arya may on occasion be guilty of the latter, but not the former.  In fact, Lyanna tried to educate her brother Ned as to the truth of his false friend Robert, to no avail.  Regardless of any signs to the contrary, Ned was blindly devoted to Robert, and this oversight arguably led to his death.

This is a telling example of Robert's 'foul heart':

Robert was not 'the true steel' -- he was leaden, dead-eyed, and treacherous.  Ultimately, of all the parties implicated, I hold him most responsible for the death of Lady.  I don't believe Lyanna would have loved someone this cruel and hard-hearted.  Unless he violently forced himself on her, I don't believe he's Jon's father.

We don't know what Robert was like in his youth or how he was corrupted by all the twisted characters around him.  He wasn't made for all the politics and machinations required for governing a kingdom or so he tells Ned.  He was in a loveless marriage with a twisted woman who had an incestuous relationship with her brother.  His father-in-Law is Twyin Lannister.... need any more be said.  If Robert was of the same character when we meet him 16 years later; there's no doubt in my mind that Lyanna and the Starks would have said no friggin way.  But I don't know what he was like when Lyanna first met him.  He probably was sowing his oats.  He might or might not stick to one bed.  But it isn't out of the question in my mind that Lyanna could very well have been attracted to him or that they could have had intimate relations even just once or twice.

I am not a fan of Robert and dislike the character we meet intensely.  But this is 16 years after the fact.   I have to go with Ned's description of him as every maiden's fantasy. Someone who affected the ladies around him.

He fits my expectation of a Darth Vader like character in the sense that people will recoil at such a reveal as you yourself demonstrate in your post.  LOL

[Ygrain]

22 minutes ago, LynnS said:

But Dornish girls are different, no?  Their sexual mores seem very open if Oberyn and the Sand Snakes are anything to go by.  Harlan says that this sort of thing happens at tourneys; a little spooning and little kissing; maybe more, maybe not.  There was no stain on his name.  But clearly there was  a mighty powerful attraction for Ashara's sister to say that she loved Ned.   Ah... young love.

Even in Dorne, young noblewomen aren't supposed to sleep around.

As for Allyria, she seems to be much younger than Ashara. She is only betrothed to Lord Berric who is a man grown, as if she was only a teenager. Begs asking how old Allyria actually is, and as apopular theory goes, she might be actually Ashara's supposedly stillborn daughter, passed off as her sister.

22 minutes ago, LynnS said:

She thinks she knows men's needs.  Does she really? How does a newly married woman know about men's needs?  She makes a generalization about it and applies it to Ned; a man she barely knows.

She reflects on this fourteen years later, though.

22 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Well, i could have this wrong because I'm absolutely horrible with timelines.  Was there not an inversion of this tale; the Northman's Daughter where Ned was seen at the Sisters near the end of the war?  Potentially bringing Jon home at the time.

That was the beginning of the war, after Ned fled the Vale and sailed North to call his banners. No Jon yet, and no Cat.

22 minutes ago, LynnS said:

  And didn't Catelyn actually stay at Riverrun until Ned returned with Winterfell and Jon was already there.  My short term memory sucks these days, an aging problem.

Yes, she did. They got married, he marched to the war, she stayed home and gave birth to Robb. The war was over, she travelled to Winterfell (unclear whether with Ned or not), and there, ooops, another baby. Looking young enough for her to presume that it was conceived while she and Ned were apart.

22 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Yes, quite possibly, but correct me if I'm wrong; Catelyn specifically says that she didn't care if Ned found solace in another woman.  This is very different from saying that Ned was lust driven like other men.  That's something for which she could forgive him.  In Cat's mind, Jon is the proof of Ned's love for this other woman. Even though Ned not Jon's father. 

Not Jon as such but the fact that Ned refuses to send him away and treats him like his trueborn children, and that he never ever speaks about his mother. That's what's nagging at her so much. Not that he had sex with another woman, or comfort or whatever, that he apparently cared for the woman so much.

22 minutes ago, LynnS said:

So Ned's dishonor in his mind has to do with a dalliance with Ashara after he was married to Catelyn and that was observed by people and gossiped about at Winterfell on Ned's return.  Someone saw something and talked.    

Now you're reaching. First, the statement that he dishonoured Cat and himself after they were married is what he says to Robert. We don't have his inner monologue for this, so we don't know if the timing is true. Second, the Winterfell gossip of Ashara is based on two event: HH, and Ned's journey to Starfall. Nothing else is ever mentioned, and it is not the only rumour circulating there: in Sansa's first PoV (IIRC), she mentions a rumour that Jon's mother was commonborn. So, no, the Winterfellians didn't see anything.

19 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm not going to argue these points with you Ygrain. I think this is ground that has already been presented and you should have included it in any summary without selecting only the points in favor of your narrative.   

I conceded on the Targ heritage on the Baratheon side which I completely forgot about, hence it broadens Robert's perspectives. However, I fail to see what some of your points have to do with significance for the narrative point of view. It seems like you are mixing in some supporting stuff for various theories, but this is not the narrative purpose of the parentage. As in, how does Jon being the son of the Fisherman's Daughter contribute to the story? What impact does it have on Jon? I really do not understand how " Jon's associations with the morningstar " might cover these.