Heresy 191 The Crows

[Black Crow]

Actually, another and probably more accurate way of characterising the relationship between ravens and crows might be to look at armies of men and the old joke that the real function of the cavalry is to lend some tone to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl.

Thus we might look on the noble ravens as the high-toned cavalry and the crows as the mucky infantry. They may in some ways be far apart but they are very much on the same side.

[me? I was one of the mucky infantry] 

[TheMiddleHero]

Nothing to add topic wise, but with the slowness of the ADWD boards, ever think of moving the thread or at least a satellite thread to the general forums?

[Black Crow]

21 minutes ago, TheMiddleHero said:

Nothing to add topic wise, but with the slowness of the ADWD boards, ever think of moving the thread or at least a satellite thread to the general forums?

I have thought about it, but we've been here a while and the whole board seems to have slowed down so it may not be worth the effort in the end. What we really need is something new from GRRM and I'm hoping that he may spring something on us before Christmas. If at one stage he though he might manage to finish it earlier in the year by or just after the shore he surely can't be that far off the end.

And at that point it might be fun to sit down and see how much we got right

[LordImp]

What is the heretics general view in the connection between the Starks and the Others? Do you guys think we might get a Stark/Others vs Targaryen/ dragons conflict ? 

[Black Crow]

7 hours ago, LordImp said:

What is the heretics general view in the connection between the Starks and the Others? Do you guys think we might get a Stark/Others vs Targaryen/ dragons conflict ? 

I'd say that the short answer is yes although it may not play out quite so "starkly". There's no doubting that the Starks are Ice to Targaryen Fire but while there's equally no doubting that Crasters boys and the dragons are equally bad news they aren't necessarily the big bad in themselves but may simply be manifestations of evil unleashed.

  

[LordImp]

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I'd say that the short answer is yes although it may not play out quite so "starkly". There's no doubting that the Starks are Ice to Targaryen Fire but while there's equally no doubting that Crasters boys and the dragons are equally bad news they aren't necessarily the big bad in themselves but may simply be manifestations of evil unleashed.

  

I think in order for the seasons to be balanced both Others and dragons must go. Why? Because they are bot unatural and corrupted beings . I think dragons was created just as the Others where created  , so they dont really belongs in this world . Thats my take on it . 

[JNR]

7 hours ago, Black Crow said:

while there's equally no doubting that Crasters boys and the dragons are equally bad news

Well, Craster's boys are nearly all dead and play no significant part in the story. 

The Popsicles, on the other hand, none of whom descend from Craster, are an increasingly significant threat to Westeros. 

I'm also a little doubtful that Dany's three dragons can be ranked as "equally bad" compared to the Popsicles, but as to that we shall see.

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, LordImp said:

I think in order for the seasons to be balanced both Others and dragons must go. Why? Because they are bot unatural and corrupted beings . I think dragons was created just as the Others where created  , so they dont really belongs in this world . Thats my take on it . 

Indeed, which goes back to Osha's declaration that Winter's got no king. This is the point. It needs a king to reign in [] the bad guys

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, JNR said:

Well, Craster's boys are nearly all dead and play no significant part in the story. 

The Popsicles, on the other hand, none of whom descend from Craster, are an increasingly significant threat to Westeros. 

I'm also a little doubtful that Dany's three dragons can be ranked as "equally bad" compared to the Popsicles, but as to that we shall see.

Ah well, I won't argue but only because that one's moved on with all the evidence from both books and mummers' version pointing to Craster's boys. Logic may argue different but in a world where dragons fly and the dead walk that don't count for much.  

[LynnS]

25 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Indeed, which goes back to Osha's declaration that Winter's got no king. This is the point. It needs a king to reign in [] the bad guys

   

[Black Crow]

And for the avoidance of doubt I don't interpret Jon, dead or otherwise, leading Craster's boys as the new Herne, but rather putting an end to their spawning and the raising of the dead.

[LordImp]

27 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

And for the avoidance of doubt I don't interpret Jon, dead or otherwise, leading Craster's boys as the new Herne, but rather putting an end to their spawning and the raising of the dead.

Agree. Though the Others might be important in fighting the dragons ? 

[Black Crow]

44 minutes ago, LordImp said:

Agree. Though the Others might be important in fighting the dragons ? 

I don't know; a battle between Craster's boys and Danaerys' pets seems a bit cheesy. I agree that the dragons need to be put down but if it takes Ice to do it I'd suspect some deeper magic will be needed rather than pitting a few changelings against them.

[LordImp]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

I don't know; a battle between Craster's boys and Danaerys' pets seems a bit cheesy. I agree that the dragons need to be put down but if it takes Ice to do it I'd suspect some deeper magic will be needed rather than pitting a few changelings against them.

I think Bran will somehow be involved in the dragons death . 

[Black Crow]

29 minutes ago, LordImp said:

I think Bran will somehow be involved in the dragons death . 

Very likely. There are some simplistic fantasies out there based on Danaerys the Dragonlord's dream of the Trident in which her dragons melt the opposition; but Winter is coming and I can more plausibly see the dragons being brought down by extreme cold and snow much as the Ice Dragon in GRRM's story fell to warm winds and dragonfire.

[LordImp]

10 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Very likely. There are some simplistic fantasies out there based on Danaerys the Dragonlord's dream of the Trident in which her dragons melt the opposition; but Winter is coming and I can more plausibly see the dragons being brought down by extreme cold and snow much as the Ice Dragon in GRRM's story fell to warm winds and dragonfire.

Danys dream of the Trident does point towards a Stark / Others alliance . I doubt this usurper she dreams of is Stannis , IMO its a Stark . Jon fits the role of the usurper . He once dreamt that he usurped Robb and Dany views the Starks as the Usurpers dogs . 

Then we also have the tale about the Bloodstone Emperor who usurped his sister, the Amethyst empress. Euron says that Dany has eyes of Amethyst empress . Euron fits the role of Bloodstone Emperor better than Jon though . 

[Black Crow]

15 minutes ago, LordImp said:

Danys dream of the Trident does point towards a Stark / Others alliance . I doubt this usurper she dreams of is Stannis , IMO its a Stark . Jon fits the role of the usurper . He once dreamt that he usurped Robb and Dany views the Starks as the Usurpers dogs . 

Then we also have the tale about the Bloodstone Emperor who usurped his sister, the Amethyst empress. Euron says that Dany has eyes of Amethyst empress . Euron fits the role of Bloodstone Emperor better than Jon though . 

I'm wary of the dream. Danaerys is seeing [or thinks she is seeing] the original battle and how it should have ended with Trouserless Bob's followers being swept away by dragonfire. A bit of wishful thinking on her part. That's not to say that somewhere down the line when she's arrived in Westeros she won't try to enact it, but as I said above I think that the outcome won't be the one she dreams of. It isn't foreshadowing/prophesy because Winter will do for her precious dragons.

As the old heretic joke runs, it won't be a case of the dragons saving Westeros from the Others but the Others saving Westeros from the dragons.

 

[JNR]

On 11/4/2016 at 11:54 AM, Black Crow said:

Ah well, I won't argue but only because that one's moved on with all the evidence from both books and mummers' version pointing to Craster's boys. Logic may argue different but in a world where dragons fly and the dead walk that don't count for much.  

It's not logic, but canon, that is going to destroy the concept that Craster sired the Others.

The show, of course, has simply done the most obvious possible thing -- believing Craster's wife on the left was right, despite her dubious value as an analyst and all the other problems with that idea.  But as Parris has said so accurately in the past, "George doesn't do obvious."

The remark that "all the evidence from the books" points to that idea is... mistaken.   

However, I also think it's admirable you were willing to place a public bet with me on this subject, in support of your chosen position.  In due course we'll settle up.

[wolfmaid7]

On 10/22/2016 at 1:05 AM, Black Crow said:

I don't see that particular scenario coming around. In the original synopsis we saw a certain degree of estrangement but that was only down to Jon refusing sanctuary to his family. In the version as written Bran comes to Jon in dreams but in physical form consciously avoids asking for sanctuary, conversely, as we see in the cases of Gilly and of Alys Karstark - and indeed the Wildlings generally, Jon shows himself very open to aiding those in need.

No the last thing I see here is Bran and Jon being on opposing sides. This is about the scattered children of Winterfell coming back together and as we roll downhill to the conclusion its too late now to bring in a conflict that doesn't exist in the written book.

I don't think it will be a case where they actively know that. We don't know how much Bran will be left.If we look at Ghost's reaction and his description of smelling the weirwood their clearly a transformation taking place.

Yes the tree had Bran's face ,but what Ghost smelled may be an indicator of Bran becoming something else on parallel with the sapling growing and taking root.Sure it may indicate Bran's powers is growing,but it also indicate that what we are seeing is him changing.

Now i'm not expecting the scenario to be the same clearly the story has changed but the threads are still there

10 minutes ago, JNR said:

It's not logic, but canon, that is going to destroy the concept that Craster sired the Others.

The show, of course, has simply done the most obvious possible thing -- believing Craster's wife on the left was right, despite her dubious value as an analyst and all the other problems with that idea.  But as Parris has said so accurately in the past, "George doesn't do obvious."

The remark that "all the evidence from the books" points to that idea is... mistaken.   

However, I also think it's admirable you were willing to place a public bet with me on this subject, in support of your chosen position.  In due course we'll settle up.

I second the Craster's boys not being the wws and will add that if anyone STILL believes the wws are the ones raising the wights i'll take that one to.

[Matthew.]

I'm not so sure that winter conditions, even extreme blizzards, will actually be the undoing of the dragons; Melisandre, who seems unnatural in a way that is not dissimilar to the dragons, certainly doesn't have a problem with the cold.

I wouldn't be surprised if, by series end, GRRM gives the dragons something more "exciting" to do than just sit around dying of hypothermia, or alternately, having them flamethrow their way through the wight horde. Credible threats could include: Euron's horn stealing one or two dragons to use against Dany and Drogon, Bran stealing a dragon through skinchanging, a wight-ified dragon, an ice dragon(???), or maybe that whole wake dragons from stone/"stone beast breathing shadow fire" thing will finally pay off.