Heresy 191 The Crows

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, JNR said:

:Book World ≠ Show World.  That's the reasonable standard. 

Old Nan's remark is book-only, and the CotF creating the white walkers is unquestionably show-only.

 

Well as you'll recall we have discussed the likely culpability of the tree-huggers long before the mummers' version "confirmed" it. As I recall the mummers did say it was one of the revelations, but while they may be aware of the fact, they won't be aware of the full backstory and have had to invent something plausible, which is where the differences are going to lie.

[LordImp]

I view the WW as guardians of the weirwoods . COTF created them to drive humans away and save the weirwoods.

I like comparing the Others with Ultron. Ultron was created to make peace , but Ultron tought that peace could only be aceived if humans died. The Others think that humans must die for the weirwoods to be safe .

So i think the Others where a experiment gone wrong , they came out of controll . Now they are hellbent on protecting the weirwoods and they will kill everything that stand in their way. 

[Black Crow]

22 minutes ago, LordImp said:

I view the WW as guardians of the weirwoods . COTF created them to drive humans away and save the weirwoods.

I like comparing the Others with Ultron. Ultron was created to make peace , but Ultron tought that peace could only be aceived if humans died. The Others think that humans must die for the weirwoods to be safe .

So i think the Others where a experiment gone wrong , they came out of controll . Now they are hellbent on protecting the weirwoods and they will kill everything that stand in their way. 

The tree-huggers creating the walkers as a way of evening up the odds against the physically bigger and stronger men is of course just what we were discussing before the mummers' version said the same thing. Whether they are still protecting the weirwoods may be a different matter entirely and harkening to the business of magic being a sword without a hilt.

I remain troubled by the battle for the dawn, or rather how little we know about it and can't shake the feeling that it is an invention. Craster's boys come and go with the cold and the dark, its as simple as that. Now Winter is coming and so are they.

[Matthew.]

53 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Craster's boys come and go with the cold and the dark, its as simple as that. Now Winter is coming and so are they.

If it were as simple as that, the 6,000 - 8,000 year period where the wildlings weren't being slaughtered en masse and turned into wights seems an awfully conspicuous peace, especially since we're told that multi-year winters are not uncommon, so it's not as though this is the only opportunity the Others have had to cause trouble. In addition, much of the losses the wildlings suffered came during the summer, so the seasons alone are not enough to limit the activities of the Others.

One reason I raised that bit of show-world history (incidentally, it's conveyed by Max von Sydow as the 3EC/3ER, so it is meant to be the CotF perspective of the war) is because it slightly broadens our potential options for understanding House Stark's presumed relationship with the Others.

For example, given that the founding of House Stark, the life of Brandon the Builder, and the creation of the Wall are continuously tied to the era of the LN, it may be that the office(?) of King of Winter/Night's King was created for the specific purpose of reigning in the sorcery that had been unleashed in the previous war--an attempt by the CotF to correct the damage they'd done. Alternately, if the Stark/CotF relationship pre-dated the Pact and the Age of Heroes, then the ouster of the Night's King and the conflict of the LN may have been one and the same.

[Matthew.]

2 hours ago, LordImp said:

I view the WW as guardians of the weirwoods . COTF created them to drive humans away and save the weirwoods.

Along these lines, I suspect that the Green Men are something similar--perhaps they are an earth/summer counterpoint to the ice/winter changeling idea that the WW's represent.

If I'm not misremembering, the Green Men weren't always around, they were established at the same time as the Pact, for the specific purpose of guarding the weirwoods of the Isle of Faces--and perhaps other sacred groves as well, in an era where they were more prolific.

We have precious little to work with here, but...:
 

Quote

Bran II, ASOS:
All the tales agreed that the green men had strange magic powers.

World Book:

Whether the green men still survive on their isle is not clear although there is the occasional account of some foolhardy young riverlord taking a boat to the isle and catching sight of them before winds rise up or a flock of ravens drives him away. The nursery tales claiming that they are horned and have dark, green skin is a corruption of the likely truth, which is that the green men wore green garments and horned headdresses.

The Green Men raising gusts of wind to deflect travelers doesn't seem all that different from the idea of the WWs raising cold winds and winter storms.

Edit: For clarity, I'm interpreting the Green Men as being unnatural/transformed humans, rather than viewing them as greenseers or druids.

[Black Crow]

24 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

If it were as simple as that, the 6,000 - 8,000 year period where the wildlings weren't being slaughtered en masse and turned into wights seems an awfully conspicuous peace, especially since we're told that multi-year winters are not uncommon, so it's not as though this is the only opportunity the Others have had to cause trouble. In addition, much of the losses the wildlings suffered came during the summer, so the seasons alone are not enough to limit the activities of the Others.

One reason I raised that bit of show-world history (incidentally, it's conveyed by Max von Sydow as the 3EC/3ER, so it is meant to be the CotF perspective of the war) is because it slightly broadens our potential options for understanding House Stark's presumed relationship with the Others.

For example, given that the founding of House Stark, the life of Brandon the Builder, and the creation of the Wall are continuously tied to the era of the LN, it may be that the office(?) of King of Winter/Night's King was created for the specific purpose of reigning in the sorcery that had been unleashed in the previous war--an attempt by the CotF to correct the damage they'd done. Alternately, if the Stark/CotF relationship pre-dated the Pact and the Age of Heroes, then the ouster of the Night's King and the conflict of the LN may have been one and the same.

As usual I don't think we're so very far apart on this one. The stories the wildlings tell and the suggestions that some of the Watch know more than they tell, can, as we've discussed before, point to a few walkers coming of a winter in times past, but all the way through on this one its been hinted that this winter is the biggie, not just a few years of winter but the return of the long night, hence the louder bumps than usual.

[Black Crow]

19 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

Along these lines, I suspect that the Green Men are something similar--perhaps they are an earth/summer counterpoint to the ice/winter changeling idea that the WW's represent.

If I'm not misremembering, the Green Men weren't always around, they were established at the same time as the Pact, for the specific purpose of guarding the weirwoods of the Isle of Faces--and perhaps other sacred groves as well, in an era where they were more prolific.

We have precious little to work with here, but...:
 

The Green Men raising gusts of wind to deflect travelers doesn't seem all that different from the idea of the WWs raising cold winds and winter storms.

Edit: For clarity, I'm interpreting the Green Men as being unnatural/transformed humans, rather than viewing them as greenseers or druids.

This is Maester Luwin:

"There [on the Island of Faces] they forged the Pact. The First Men were given the coastlands, the high plains and bright meadows, the mountains and bogs, but the deep woods were to remain forever the children's, and no more weirwoods were to be put to the axe anywhere in the realm. So the gods might bear witness to the signing, every tree on the island was given a face, and afterward, the sacred order of green men was formed to keep watch over the Isle of Faces.

And then: 

In Old Nan’s stories, the guardians had dark green skin and leaves instead of hair. Sometimes they had antlers too,

[JNR]

12 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Broadly speaking, I'm saying that if we're already going to begin with the premise "some of the oral history is incorrect," it's transparently self-serving for someone to simultaneously reject those bits of history that don't align with their theories, yet cite that same dubious oral history to insist on certain other aspects of their theories.

That's true.  And it's a thing that has historically happened quite a bit in Heresy, unfortunately.

However, there is no possible conflict between the show and the books because they are different fictional worlds.  What happens in the one confirms, denies, and relates to what happens in the other in no necessary way.  

I don't know how many times GRRM has reminded of this over the years, but we keep forgetting.

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The tree-huggers creating the walkers as a way of evening up the odds against the physically bigger and stronger men is of course just what we were discussing before the mummers' version said the same thing.

The point you are trying to make is logically identical to the point made by those in another place.

You'll recall, I'm sure, the popular and repeated claim that they were discussing a certain theory of Jon's parents in the books first... and then support for it, which is not in the books, appeared in the show... and somehow, that supports the theory in the case of the books.

It does no such thing (as you yourself have argued in the case of that other theory).  These are two quite different fictional realities.

[Matthew.]

40 minutes ago, JNR said:

What happens in the one confirms, denies, and relates to what happens in the other in no necessary way. 

I'm still not seeing the objection, since I'm not sure anything so authoritative (eg, "this has been confirmed " or "this is now impossible") was said in the first place. As a matter of respectful discussion, I don't think people should declare an issue/mystery closed for discussion just because it has been answered in the show, but I also see no reason why show revelations shouldn't be taken into consideration in discussing the text--I'd like to think that most of us can distinguish between a discussion that assumes something could be true  in the books vs. a discussion that assumes something must be true in the books.

To put it another way, so long as GRRM keeps writing at his current pace, the show is the closest thing to fresh discussion fodder that we have, even if it's not an identical story.

[Black Crow]

41 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

I'm still not seeing the objection, since I'm not sure anything so authoritative (eg, "this has been confirmed " or "this is now impossible") was said in the first place. As a matter of respectful discussion, I don't think people should declare an issue/mystery closed for discussion just because it has been answered in the show, but I also see no reason why show revelations shouldn't be taken into consideration in discussing the text--I'd like to think that most of us can distinguish between a discussion that assumes something could be true  in the books vs. a discussion that assumes something must be true in the books.

To put it another way, so long as GRRM keeps writing at his current pace, the show is the closest thing to fresh discussion fodder that we have, even if it's not an identical story.

Agreed, especially as the two are not as entirely separate as claimed. As I said above I have a clear recollection that the mummers declared the connection between the tree-huggers and the walkers was one of the very early things revealed unto them by GRRM; hence, said they, the "clues" such as the curious symbols; so the connection is there. It exists in both worlds. Where we are left groping in the dark is that we don't know how much they were told about the connection, but it would be reasonable to assume for the purposes of this discussion that they got the bare fact of it and that the back-story as revealed on screen and in the extras is their own plausible creation. The obvious fact that explanation is not and never will be canon does not detract from the event itself.

In carrying the argument further we can therefore proceed on the basis that the connection exists, but argue as to the circumstances and outcome,

[Matthew.]

GRRM's own statement on the Santa Fe meeting with D&D and Bryan Cogman was that he can provide the show with the broad strokes of where the story is heading, but he can't fill in the details (likely because the details did not/do not yet exist), and I'm content to accept that explanation of what D&D know. 

For example, we see in the show that Dany has united the Dothraki; now I suspect that the manner in which she unites the Dothraki in the books will be quite different, but I accept the broad idea that this is something that is going to eventually happen. Similarly, I think there's been some foreshadowing with Cersei - her fascination with watching the Tower of the Hand burn, her Aerys-esque paranoid delusions - to support the broad plot premise "Cersei uses Aerys' wildfire stores to get revenge on her enemies."

[LynnS]

I would add that where D&D have changed the names of book characters, that they are signalling a departure from the books; especially in the case where we know the books are different.  Specifically the ToJ scene.  We know there was a battle but not what transpired afterwards and making this a fight with two kingsguard instead of three; tells me that this is still a central mystery to the story.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

GRRM's own statement on the Santa Fe meeting with D&D and Bryan Cogman was that he can provide the show with the broad strokes of where the story is heading, but he can't fill in the details (likely because the details did not/do not yet exist), and I'm content to accept that explanation of what D&D know. 

For example, we see in the show that Dany has united the Dothraki; now I suspect that the manner in which she unites the Dothraki in the books will be quite different, but I accept the broad idea that this is something that is going to eventually happen. Similarly, I think there's been some foreshadowing with Cersei - her fascination with watching the Tower of the Hand burn, her Aerys-esque paranoid delusions - to support the broad plot premise "Cersei uses Aerys' wildfire stores to get revenge on her enemies."

Exactly so. We don't know how the changelings were created and how it turned out, but we can be confident that it happened and can therefore try to figure out how to fill the blanks; likewise we can be confident that Danaerys the Dragonlord will unite the Dothraki, we just don't know how this will come about.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I would add that where D&D have changed the names of book characters, that they are signalling a departure from the books; especially in the case where we know the books are different.  Specifically the ToJ scene.  We know there was a battle but not what transpired afterwards and making this a fight with two kingsguard instead of three; tells me that this is still a central mystery to the story.

Taking this off on a slight tangent, this business of the two Kingsguard is itself interesting. There's no good reason in plot terms why the three should become two, so that leaves us with the answer being a matter of accountancy - why hire more actors than we need? Two's the absolute minimum though, we can't knock it down to just Ser Arthur on his own though; viewers might draw the obvious connection to the baby in the tower

[LynnS]

5 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Taking this off on a slight tangent, this business of the two Kingsguard is itself interesting. There's no good reason in plot terms why the three should become two, so that leaves us with the answer being a matter of accountancy - why hire more actors than we need? Two's the absolute minimum though, we can't knock it down to just Ser Arthur on his own though; viewers might draw the obvious connection to the baby in the tower

That's some pretty weak tea if they wanted to save money on a third actor.  They could have easily put in one more; but that might have made it too close to the book.

[Black Crow]

9 hours ago, LynnS said:

That's some pretty weak tea if they wanted to save money on a third actor.  They could have easily put in one more; but that might have made it too close to the book.

It is, but also by cutting it down to two they focus the attention on Ser Arthur far more closely than if he'd been one of three - and of course there was the little matter of the sword? All very canonical but its the heavy emphasis which is interesting - but this, alas, is straying from matters heretical.

[LordImp]

On 12. november 2016 at 11:36 PM, Black Crow said:

Exactly so. We don't know how the changelings were created and how it turned out, but we can be confident that it happened and can therefore try to figure out how to fill the blanks; likewise we can be confident that Danaerys the Dragonlord will unite the Dothraki, we just don't know how this will come about.

When It comes to Dany uniting the Dothraki. I think she will mount Drogon and burn the khals. 

[wolfmaid7]

On 11/6/2016 at 7:46 AM, LynnS said:

What's happening to Craster's boys?  Are they being turned over to the CotF?  Are the greenseers raising the wights?  Why is Coldhands so concerned about the WW?  He brings it up twice.  Once when he tells Bran that they can't light a fire because it will attract foes who leave no marks in the snow and again when they reach the cave of the greenseer again asking if they can 'see' anything since the foe doesn't leave any tracks in the snow.   Whatever agency is behind Coldhands; it seems that the WW are not under that same control while the wights are not considered a danger in any great regard.  So that would imply a certain amount of control.

Craster's boys i believe them to just be dead...I don't think anything will come out of them being exposed.Its one of those things born from what i believe has to do with the ugly side of humanity.Craster has been brainwashed into killing his male line and the legacy created by the women on that spot is to save one.It affords them protection having a male "over them" for pretense,they infact have the power.

Its is also possible that they are ending up in the COTF cave as a snack,but i don't believe they are being turned into wws.As to what they are i believe they are golems held together by a spell,boggeymen meant to provide the greatest gift imaginable to the GS-Anonymity.

 It is my theory that the greenseers are the one raising the wights and that there is another GS in play.It looks as if if CHs is under his own agency and i wouldn't be suprised if he was a skinchanger on the level of BR.Just instead of using a tree dead bodies are his conduit.Whoever CHs is,i don't think he's some random dude.

Here's thefunny thing about CHs statement and its the same thing ive brought up over and over when it comes to these ww accounts.No body sees them and the wights together.They see wights and think wws are involved.So CHs give this speech about the wws being around and drops in you can't see their foot prints on the snow,but how convienient.Pretty much saying something is there by them NOT being there.

From what we've seen its not neccessary that wws lead the wights,we have not seen that.We have seen the wights acting no different than the murder of crows.

The wights are the danger,they are the one that have caused all the damage.We saw two appearence of wws and it was more of a "look at me" display until somebody decided to challenge them.I think the point was for them to seen and for people to go back with reports that they were.

On 11/9/2016 at 0:19 PM, Frey family reunion said:

The White Walkers are not an army, they are sheep dogs, leading the wildings south of the Wall.  Mystical constructs created of frozen air, and the shadow selves of Craster's children, possibly being controlled by the COTF seen by Bran in Bloodraven's cave.  So my guess is, in addition to the COTF, we have an aeromancer, and a shadow binder behind the WWs.

Shadow selves of somebody i have little doubt,but possibly someone already grown and seasoned with swinging a sword.

[Black Crow]

You're forgetting Ser Puddles and his dead - wighted - horse

[Black Crow]

22 hours ago, LordImp said:

When It comes to Dany uniting the Dothraki. I think she will mount Drogon and burn the khals. 

Far from impossible. I'd say the one thing we can be certain of here is that one or more dragons will have a role in Danaerys the Dragonlord's ascension